Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Hi Jeff,
let me first say that I know little about wifi and the situation makes
me nosey at what is going on.
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:16:44 +0000 (UTC), rel <relic@home.nl> wrote:
>
>>The distance between objects is 1.5km, there is one building between the two buidlings that is 5 meters higher:
>
> Higher than what? Do you have an obstructed line of sight? Do you
> have Fresnel zone clearance? If not, you're about to have a
> reliability problem.
> http://gbppr.dyndns.org:8080/fresnel.main.cgi
> You need a radius of about 7 meters clearance at midpoint. Do you
> have clearance?
There is clearance between the buildings. Let me draw the situation:
A1 B1 B2 C1
______|< >|_____|< >|_____
| | | | | |
Building A Building B Building C
A1 = Redline B1 = Redl. C1 = Cisco 350 bridge
B2 = Cisco 350 bridge
So building B is higher than building C, that is why this 3 point
setup is used. For what I know devices B1 and B2 are connected with
a 75ohm COAX cable that spans the width of the the B building whitch is
aprox 60 meters. My guess is that signal strenght is lost here.
>
> Yeah, I know RedLine claims that the AN-50 is NLOS because it does
> OFDM. I think NLOS is science fiction and marketing hype.
I've read on their site that they develop their systems by
a mathimatically view on the concept. And so be better :)
Aren't they all since it's all about EM waves.
>
> You topology description is vague, ambiguous, and lacking in important
> detail.
> How far apart are A -> B1? (Redline)
> How far apart are B2 -> C? (Cisco)
> Which path has the building obstruction? Any other obstructions?
>
>>Object "A" a "Redline AN-50", whitch operates on 5.4Ghz, 36Mb/s and setup as accesspoint.
>
> http://www.redlinecommunications.com..._overview.html
>>Object "B1" a Redline (same device) but setup as a repeater.
I'am a non native dutchy, so the right toplogy about somthing I have no
knowledge of can be a bit lacking here. Sorry about that. I'll try my
best.
The distance between A and B1 is aprox 900 meters
and from B2 to C is about 600 meters. There are no obstacles exept
a lake between A and B1 (and a container terminal that doesn't reach
above A and B, there is a lot of iron though, the containers.) This
could influence the signal a little be I think.
>
> Huh? Why a repeater? To what wireless device are they repeating to?
> Methinks this is misconfigured or you're using the wrong buzzword.
> Methinks both Redline boxes should be setup as a transparent bridge.
The people who set it up told me that B1 is a repeater and also
they named A1 as "office to repeater" and B2 "repeater to office"
So they would be all transparent bridges? Makes much more sence indeed.
>
> I'll make a guess(tm) and assume that B1 and B2 are located near each
> other and connected with an ethernet cable. Is this correct?
B1 and B2 are mounted on both sides of the middle builidng roof
and are connected with a COAX cable. (not sure).
>
>>Object "B2" a Cisco Aironet 350, 2.4Ghz. 11Mb/s setup as repeater.
>>Object "C" the same Aironet setup as AP.
>
> The Cisco 350 doesn't act as a repeater so methinks you're using the
> wrong term here. There are also multiple models of the Cisco 350. My
> guess(tm) is that both Cisco 350's should be setup as wireless
> transparent bridges.
correct, they are bridges with a horrible web admin interface.
>
>>The ping results are good, 9ms peeks to 32ms. But when testing the speed by copying a large file from a fileserver, the download started at 30KB/s and then dropped to 8KB/s.
>>Avarages at 12KB/s
>
> 9msec for such a system sucks. Something is wrong. Even the most
> disgusting point to point wireless 802.11b link will do <3msec pings.
> The Redline should do even less.
Even worse, today (i was at the site for a half hour) the pings would go
up to 1500, 3000 ms and back to 6ms. And other times stay just below
50ms. Very weird situation.
>
> Also, you should do pings with large packets and only one link at a
> time. I assume that *ALL* the wireless drives have IP addresses and
> can be pinged. Try pinging all of them in sequence and record the
> numbers. Methinks you'll find an excessive delay or packet loss in
> one of the links.
>
Good tip. But what if B1 or B2 is a faulty one. I would get bad
ping results from A or C, because they have to go trough B1/2.
A traceroute would workaround this, not?
> As for the 12KBytes/sec (or 96kbits/sec), this is incredibly slow.
> You have something eating packets along the way. There's not enough
> info here to determine the cause, but look for packet loss somewhere.
> The management interfaces for the RedLine and Cisco boxes all have
> signal strength, signal quality, and error count status pages. Use
> these to determine if you have an RF problem.
>
> One common problem I've seen is NWAY negotiation failure. Both Cisco
> and Redline have NWAY negotiation at the ethernet interfaces.
> However, there's no guarantee that they actually setting on the
> correct protocol. I've seen pairs of devices which settle on
> 100baseTX, but with FDX on one end, and HDX on the other. It works,
> but the error rate is horrible. If you suspect this problem, make
> sure the ethernet interfaces are set to fixed and identical speeds.
> To get 48Mbits/sec thruput, you'll need either 100baseTX-HDX or
> preferably 100baseTX-FDX (full duplex).
>
>>Could there be a misconfiguration of the hardware, or what can
>>be the problem here. If someone can hint me, please.
>
> This is a rather poor design. You have a top of the line, premo
> 5.6Ghz wireless bridge running in an obstructed path. It's capeable
> of doing 48Mbits/sec thruput, but you have it throttled with a pair of
> comparatively slow 802.11b bridges which are limited to perhaps
> 5Mbits/sec on a good day, and probably 3Mbits/sec typically. Even if
> it had worked as intended, it still would be running well under
> expectations. Methinks you need to yell at whomever sold you this
> mess.
Beter yet, the whole thing costs 10.000 euro's.
I will call them tomorrow but have no fate in them fixing it.
>
> Divide the puzzle in half. Plant yourself with a laptop at B1-B2 and
> unplug each end. Ping away in both directions and see which part of
> the link is having a problem. It could easily be both. Then, ask the
> experts that sold you this abomination why they left without any real
> thruput testing.
>
> What does this thing do? What level of sustained thruput are you
> expecting?
>
>
It's a backup for a fixed line whitch will arive within a month. We
thought to bridge this perion with wifi. Sharing files with the
fileserver on the other end would be great, but with this transfer rates
this is not possible. Most important thing is stable connectivity with
an AS400 application.
I for havn't had any time to sit down and look for the problem.
Tomorrow I'll have that and have to fix this. I'll follow you tips.
The company left all in default, the passwords still admin/admin for the
redline's and the cisco's hace no authentication at all. Wonder how
security is done here :)
The http and telnet interface of the cisco is so bad. I can reach them
by telnet now and below a paste of their configs. Maybe some misconfig
can be seen here.
Redline A1:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Hi Jeff,
let me first say that I know little about wifi and the situation makes
me nosey at what is going on.
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:16:44 +0000 (UTC), rel <relic@home.nl> wrote:
>
>>The distance between objects is 1.5km, there is one building between the two buidlings that is 5 meters higher:
>
> Higher than what? Do you have an obstructed line of sight? Do you
> have Fresnel zone clearance? If not, you're about to have a
> reliability problem.
> http://gbppr.dyndns.org:8080/fresnel.main.cgi
> You need a radius of about 7 meters clearance at midpoint. Do you
> have clearance?
There is clearance between the buildings. Let me draw the situation:
A1 B1 B2 C1
______|< >|_____|< >|_____
| | | | | |
Building A Building B Building C
A1 = Redline B1 = Redl. C1 = Cisco 350 bridge
B2 = Cisco 350 bridge
So building B is higher than building C, that is why this 3 point
setup is used. For what I know devices B1 and B2 are connected with
a 75ohm COAX cable that spans the width of the the B building whitch is
aprox 60 meters. My guess is that signal strenght is lost here.
>
> Yeah, I know RedLine claims that the AN-50 is NLOS because it does
> OFDM. I think NLOS is science fiction and marketing hype.
I've read on their site that they develop their systems by
a mathimatically view on the concept. And so be better :)
Aren't they all since it's all about EM waves.
>
> You topology description is vague, ambiguous, and lacking in important
> detail.
> How far apart are A -> B1? (Redline)
> How far apart are B2 -> C? (Cisco)
> Which path has the building obstruction? Any other obstructions?
>
>>Object "A" a "Redline AN-50", whitch operates on 5.4Ghz, 36Mb/s and setup as accesspoint.
>
> http://www.redlinecommunications.com..._overview.html
>>Object "B1" a Redline (same device) but setup as a repeater.
I'am a non native dutchy, so the right toplogy about somthing I have no
knowledge of can be a bit lacking here. Sorry about that. I'll try my
best.
The distance between A and B1 is aprox 900 meters
and from B2 to C is about 600 meters. There are no obstacles exept
a lake between A and B1 (and a container terminal that doesn't reach
above A and B, there is a lot of iron though, the containers.) This
could influence the signal a little be I think.
>
> Huh? Why a repeater? To what wireless device are they repeating to?
> Methinks this is misconfigured or you're using the wrong buzzword.
> Methinks both Redline boxes should be setup as a transparent bridge.
The people who set it up told me that B1 is a repeater and also
they named A1 as "office to repeater" and B2 "repeater to office"
So they would be all transparent bridges? Makes much more sence indeed.
>
> I'll make a guess(tm) and assume that B1 and B2 are located near each
> other and connected with an ethernet cable. Is this correct?
B1 and B2 are mounted on both sides of the middle builidng roof
and are connected with a COAX cable. (not sure).
>
>>Object "B2" a Cisco Aironet 350, 2.4Ghz. 11Mb/s setup as repeater.
>>Object "C" the same Aironet setup as AP.
>
> The Cisco 350 doesn't act as a repeater so methinks you're using the
> wrong term here. There are also multiple models of the Cisco 350. My
> guess(tm) is that both Cisco 350's should be setup as wireless
> transparent bridges.
correct, they are bridges with a horrible web admin interface.
>
>>The ping results are good, 9ms peeks to 32ms. But when testing the speed by copying a large file from a fileserver, the download started at 30KB/s and then dropped to 8KB/s.
>>Avarages at 12KB/s
>
> 9msec for such a system sucks. Something is wrong. Even the most
> disgusting point to point wireless 802.11b link will do <3msec pings.
> The Redline should do even less.
Even worse, today (i was at the site for a half hour) the pings would go
up to 1500, 3000 ms and back to 6ms. And other times stay just below
50ms. Very weird situation.
>
> Also, you should do pings with large packets and only one link at a
> time. I assume that *ALL* the wireless drives have IP addresses and
> can be pinged. Try pinging all of them in sequence and record the
> numbers. Methinks you'll find an excessive delay or packet loss in
> one of the links.
>
Good tip. But what if B1 or B2 is a faulty one. I would get bad
ping results from A or C, because they have to go trough B1/2.
A traceroute would workaround this, not?
> As for the 12KBytes/sec (or 96kbits/sec), this is incredibly slow.
> You have something eating packets along the way. There's not enough
> info here to determine the cause, but look for packet loss somewhere.
> The management interfaces for the RedLine and Cisco boxes all have
> signal strength, signal quality, and error count status pages. Use
> these to determine if you have an RF problem.
>
> One common problem I've seen is NWAY negotiation failure. Both Cisco
> and Redline have NWAY negotiation at the ethernet interfaces.
> However, there's no guarantee that they actually setting on the
> correct protocol. I've seen pairs of devices which settle on
> 100baseTX, but with FDX on one end, and HDX on the other. It works,
> but the error rate is horrible. If you suspect this problem, make
> sure the ethernet interfaces are set to fixed and identical speeds.
> To get 48Mbits/sec thruput, you'll need either 100baseTX-HDX or
> preferably 100baseTX-FDX (full duplex).
I have no packet loss and even the stats on the devices don't have much
error reporst. Couldn't find signal indicators, execpt on the redline
there are just green boxes that indicate signal, power etc. All seems
fine. But I did see a realtime chart on the cisco about interference.
The chart was filled, just don;t know how to read it. But it indicated
70%.
>
>>Could there be a misconfiguration of the hardware, or what can
>>be the problem here. If someone can hint me, please.
>
> This is a rather poor design. You have a top of the line, premo
> 5.6Ghz wireless bridge running in an obstructed path. It's capeable
> of doing 48Mbits/sec thruput, but you have it throttled with a pair of
> comparatively slow 802.11b bridges which are limited to perhaps
> 5Mbits/sec on a good day, and probably 3Mbits/sec typically. Even if
> it had worked as intended, it still would be running well under
> expectations. Methinks you need to yell at whomever sold you this
> mess.
>
> Divide the puzzle in half. Plant yourself with a laptop at B1-B2 and
> unplug each end. Ping away in both directions and see which part of
> the link is having a problem. It could easily be both. Then, ask the
> experts that sold you this abomination why they left without any real
> thruput testing.
>
> What does this thing do? What level of sustained thruput are you
> expecting?
>
Havn't had mych time to look at it, will have since this monday.
The whole setup costs 10.000 euro's.
We wanted to bridge the delivery time of a fixed line, whitch is in a
month. File serving with the office would be great. But most important is
stable connectivity with an AS400 based application.
I have telnet access to the devices now, the last end (C1) seems down at
the moment. But have copied some data from the others (even
authentication is left as is to default, cisco got no auth at all).
Please see:
Redline A1:
AN-50>show config
sysname = kantoor to repeater
sysdetails =
ipaddr = 10.32.248.16
ipmask = 255.255.255.0
gateway = 10.32.248.1
flowctrl = off
eth = 100FD
http = on
snmp = on
telnet = on
telnetport = 23
rffreq = 5535
autoscan = off
dfsaction = 2
antgain = 40
txpower = 14
atpcen = on
adaptmod = on
modreduct = 2
ubrate = 36
master = on
encrypt = on
encryptkey = ###
llmod = off
lmu = on
ll = 0
buzzer = off
radio = on
optionskey = ###
flash 1: 1.32.003
flash 2: 1.32.011 active
AN-50>show stats
macaddr = 00:09:02:00:38:A2
swver = 1.32.011
starttime = 0 day(s), 06 hr, 21 min, 04 sec
rflink = Yes
ubrate = 36
rffreq = 5535
txpower = 9
cableattn = 7
rfstatus = 0
erxpkt = 54603
erxpktd = 0
etxpkt = 35250
rssimin = -67.44
rssimean = -66.69
rssimax = -66.69
sinadr = 20.64
wrxpkt = 3195632
wrxpktr = 1
wrxpktd = 0
wtxpkt = 3205747
wtxpktr = 0
wtxpktd = 0
calcdst = 0.42
hwrev = 3
odu = T54
Redline B1:
AN-50>show config
sysname = repeater to kantoor
sysdetails =
ipaddr = 10.32.248.17
ipmask = 255.255.255.0
gateway = 10.32.248.1
flowctrl = off
eth = auto
http = on
snmp = on
telnet = on
telnetport = 23
rffreq = 5535
autoscan = off
dfsaction = 0
antgain = 40
txpower = 14
atpcen = on
adaptmod = on
modreduct = 2
ubrate = 36
master = off
encrypt = on
encryptkey = ###
llmod = off
lmu = on
ll = 0
buzzer = off
radio = on
optionskey = ###
flash 1: 1.32.003
flash 2: 1.32.011 active
AN-50>show stats
macaddr = 00:09:02:00:38:A5
swver = 1.32.011
starttime = 0 day(s), 06 hr, 22 min, 25 sec
rflink = Yes
ubrate = 36
rffreq = 5535
txpower = 8
cableattn = 2
rfstatus = 0
erxpkt = 35481
erxpktd = 0
etxpkt = 54629
rssimin = -67.63
rssimean = -66.50
rssimax = -66.88
sinadr = 20.56
wrxpkt = 3218532
wrxpktr = 0
wrxpktd = 0
wtxpkt = 3208397
wtxpktr = 1
wtxpktd = 0
calcdst = 0.42
hwrev = 3
odu = T54
Cisco 350 B2:
Kantoor Express Setup Uptime: 2 days, 07:01:14
System [Name ][Kantoor ]
[Terminal Type ][teletype]
MAC Address : 00:40:96:53:d1:6e
Config. Server [Protocol ][None ]
IP [Address ][10.32.248.18 ]
IP [Subnet Mask ][255.255.255.0 ]
Default [Gateway ][10.32.248.1 ]
[Service Set ID (SSID) ][x ]
[Role in Radio Network ][Root Bridge ]
[Optimize Radio Network For ][Throughput] [Hw Radio]
Ensure Compatibility With: [2Mb/sec Clients][_]
[Security Setup]
[SNMP Admin. Community ][ ]
Kantoor Network Ports Uptime: 2 days, 07:03:26
===[Diagnostics]===
___________________________________
Name [Ethernet] [Root Radio] [Bridge:Magazijn]
Status Up Up Up
Mb/s 100.0 11.0 11.0
IP Addr. 10.32.248.18 10.32.248.18 10.32.248.18
MAC Addr. 00409653d16e 00409653d16e 00409653d16e
Receive
unicast pkts. 3745 39606 71609
multicast pkts. 51743 0 229323
total bytes 5525904 4282610 33605745
errors 1 0 0
discards 0 0 0
Transmit
unicast pkts. 3572 64618 73030
multicast pkts. 32460 3 460987
total bytes 3389515 12483286 118649149
errors 1 682 0
discards 0 0 0
(Auto Apply On) :BOttom, :Down, :Back, ^R, =, -, <ENTER>, or [Link Text]:
Kantoor Association Table Uptime: 2 days, 07:02:06
___________________________________
Settings: [Client][X] [Rptr][X] [Bridge][X] [APs][X]
[Infra.Host][_] [Multicast][_] [showAllNetwork][_]
Press to Change Settings:
[Apply] [Save as Default]
Restore [Current Defaults] Restore [Factory Defaults]
Existing Associations: [additional display filters]
____Device_____|___Name_______________|____IP Addr./Name___|___MAC
Addr.____|_VLAN_|_State_____|___Parent____________ _
350 Series Bridge | Kantoor | [10.32.248.18 ] | [00409653d16e] |
| |
350 Series Bridge | Magazijn | [10.32.248.19 ] | [00409653ae3b] |
| Assoc | [self]
Event Log
Time Severity Description
2 days, 06:31:41 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
2 days, 04:18:06 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
2 days, 04:18:06 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Authenticated
2 days, 04:17:17 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Not
Authenticated"
2 days, 04:17:06 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason
"Inactivity"
2 days, 00:16:22 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
2 days, 00:16:22 (Info): Disassociating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Not
Associated"
2 days, 00:13:12 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b roamed
2 days, 00:13:12 (Info): Disassociating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Sender
(Auto Apply On) :BOttom, :Down, :Back, ^R, =, -, <ENTER>, or [Link Text]:
2 days, 00:16:22 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
2 days, 00:16:22 (Info): Disassociating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Not
Associated"
2 days, 00:13:12 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b roamed
2 days, 00:13:12 (Info): Disassociating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Sender
is Leaving (has left) BSS"
1 day, 23:06:50 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
1 day, 23:06:50 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Authenticated
1 day, 23:02:48 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Not
Authenticated"
1 day, 23:02:32 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason
"Inactivity"
1 day, 23:01:57 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
1 day, 19:11:59 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
1 day, 19:11:59 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Authenticated
1 day, 19:10:08 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason "Not
Authenticated"
1 day, 19:05:05 (Info): Deauthenticating [Magazijn]00409653ae3b, reason
"Inactivity"
1 day, 17:09:07 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
1 day, 16:52:48 (Info): Station [Magazijn]00409653ae3b Reassociated
Cisco 350 C1:
not reachable at the moment