kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in
news:7dnm4391ck0e1fd4aroigbbvap8rofruei@4ax.com:

> On 15 May 2007 00:52:26 GMT, Pecos
> <anortRemOveThIs&2on21@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I am seeking advice from all of you experienced hardware experts out
>>there to write the final chapter in A Case of Maxtaken Identity.
>>
>>I am still trying to replace my now defunct Maxtor DiamondMax 10 250GB
>>SATA I 1.5 GB/s 16 MB hard drive, one of two drives in my RAID array.
>>I now have several options. During a call to Seagate/Maxtor to get
>>some information about their Maxtor Maxline III models, I happened to
>>ask them if there was a warranty on my refurbished drive. The
>>surprise answer was that it was still under warranty.
>
> I don't understand what the problem is. The drive fails,
> you get the RMA, and ship it to Maxtor. They send the
> replacement. End of story, except for packing material
> which I mention below.
>
>>
>>I was very happy to hear this. After I received the email stating
>>what I needed to do to send the drive to them, I noted that they have
>>a program that would allow me to receive a hard drive via two day air
>>before returning the bad drive. They would also send the packaging
>>needed for returning the bad drive (which I need) and prepay for the
>>return shipping. This would cost $19.99.
>
> No you do not need to buy more packing material. When you
> get the replacement drive cross-shipped in advance, you can
> take the packing material from THAT drive and use it to pack
> your failed drive. I have done this many times (every time
> I could, actually) without problems. So the cross-ship
> means you have a limited time (think it's 30 days) within
> which to send them the failed drive or else you are billed
> for the replacement drive at that point. Your only cost is
> postage to return the failed drive to them.
>

I wrote in my statement that they would send the return packaging
(presumably in the form of the box and rubber foam used to send the
replacement drive). Was my statement unclear?

And you are right, I do have 30 days to return the bad drive.

With the Advanced Replacement option, the return shipping is prepaid, as
I stated above.

>>
>>I also noticed in the email that physical damage to the drive would
>>void the warranty. When I called Seagate/Maxtor back to cancel the
>>original RMA and sign up for the Advanced Replacement program, I was
>>honest and told them that after the drive had failed, I had taken it
>>out and tapped it on the floor to free any possible stuck heads.
>
> 1) Do not tap the drive.

Now you tell me. :-) But you are right. For modern hard drives it is
not a good idea to tap the hard drive as I did. For those who aren't old
enough to know, some hard drives built in the 1980's used a thin film of
lubricant on the platter that caused a problem known as striction. It
was a widely known problem at the time that these drives could fail to
spin up. The solution was to tap the drive on a hard surface, just hard
enough to free the heads and light enough not to damage the drive
internally. The spindle motor of these drives did not have enough torque
on power-up to overcome the striction between the heads and the platters.
Once spinning and, assuming you haven't damaged the internals, the drive
was fine - until the next time it happened.

I know this from experience. I am holding in one hand as I write this a
Plus Hardcard 40 model hard drive that fell victim to striction. It is a
hard drive/ISA card solution for adding storage. And striction is not
entirely unknown in recent times either:

http://www.crn.com/storage/18833112

The article says that what they call 'grunge' can build up from
"lubrication by-products" and "media particulates".

This article list the tricks to get a failed hard drive working again
including the 'tapping trick' (at the risk of total hard disk failure of
course):

http://www.handcraftedwebsites.com/n.../20040314.html
(search for 'lubricant')

The mistake I made was not removing the drive and checking to see if it
was spinning up during POST. My last ditch fix doesn't help if the drive
had already spun up.

> 2) When asking for an RMA, less information is better than
> more. At this point I think you could have voided the
> warranty andn possibly, rightly so.
>

So you are saying that my policy of 'full disclosure' is a bad idea. It
may be if you have something to hide. I don't.

It doesn't matter anyway. I also asked about my personal information on
the drive. I was told that all hard drives arriving for warranty
replacement go immediately through a process with a three or four letter
name that I missed. The drive is degaussed and inspected for internal
damage. Whether or not I told the support person about the tapping trick
I used, they will determine any damage done and make the a final
determination if I voided the warranty based on that information and not
on what I told the support person.

Also, the original drive you send in is not the replacement drive you
will receive. I think that the support person also said that refurbished
drives are also low-level formatted with zeros before shipment.

>
>>I knew this trick
>>sometimes worked with older drives. The support person told me that
>>if the drive was damaged internally, I would be charged for a
>>replacement drive.
>
> You are lucky they didn't tell you that the warranty was
> void. Forget about the incident and just send in the drive.
>
>
>
>> I also told her that the drive clicks five or more times during
>>POST, although I don't know if it did that before my 'last chance'
>>risky fix, that wasn't a last chance risky fix after all now that I
>>know it had a warranty. ;-)
>
> The CSR you contact is not a diagnostic technician nor the
> designer, all that is required is to inform that the drive
> doesn't work, and if they require you run the Diagnostics,
> you do so.
>

The support person (SP) put me on hold to get more information. After I
told the SP about the tapping incident the SP wanted to verify that I
could still use the Advanced Replacement option. The SP said that I
could but I could be charged for the replacement if I had voided the
warranty by damaging the drive.

>>
>>I have two options:
>>
>>Option 1:
>>Return the bad Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6L250S0 250 GB SATA I 16 MB NCQ
>>drive to Seagate/Maxtor for a replacement. The replacement drive will
>>most likely also be a refurbished drive.
>>Risk the additional cost of a replacement drive if the warranty has
>>been voided.
>>The warranty expires April 16, 2009.
>>
>>Option 2:
>>Buy two new Maxtor Maxline III 7V250F0 250 GB SATA II 16 MB NCQ drives
>>with 3 year warranties.
>>Cost: $130 more than Option 1 if the warranty on old drive is good
>> $50 more than Option 1 if the warranty on old drive is void
>>
>>This seemed like a no-brainer until I read about the possibility that
>>I may have voided the warranty.
>
>
> I recommend you stop making a simple thing into a difficult
> one. Forget about all the issues you have mentioned thus
> far, and I mean ALL of them.

I don't like throwing good money after bad - hence my need to know
whether or not I had damaged the drive and the two options I listed.

If the drive was not damaged - choose option one.
If the drive was damaged - choose option two.

> Make a choice. Do you want to store your data on "possibly"
> refurbished drives and if so, on a RAID1 array? If the
> answer is yes, get the replacement sent and reuse that
> packing material to send them your failed drive. You
> already mentioned the tapping of the drive so don't go out
> of your way to give them another reason to reject it.
>
> If the answer is no, buy the new drives and use them for the
> array or without an array, and use the packing material from
> the new drive to repack the old one, plus put that retail
> box inside of a larger shipping box padded on all sides.
> Return the failed drive without getting an advanced
> replacement, only waiting for their acceptance of the drive
> and to send the replacement.
>

That is very helpful advice. Thank you. I may end up following it. I
will have to wait and see if I am billed for the replacement drive. I
don't like running RAID with a refurbished drive and will have to
eventually buy two new drives anyway. Worst case, I have already proven
that RAID 1 mirroring works and if the refurbed drive fails, my important
data is still there for me to recover.

>>
>>So all of you esteemed hardware veterans out there - have I toasted my
>>old drive and will it have internal damage? Has this in fact voided
>>my warranty?
>
> Forget about this issue, see the two paragraphs I wrote
> above.
>
>
>>
>>Please help me write the final chapter in my article:
>>http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/..._Identity.html
>>
>>I will tally up the votes for Options 1 and 2 and will update my
>>webpage with a summary of who voted and how you voted. I am doing
>>this as a sort of an experiment. Unless I have a really good reason
>>not to, I am letting you make the final(??) choice for me.
>
> You are out of your mind. This is a very simple process
> which you are turning into a saga. Next time just get a
> good repair shop to do it all for you, the whole process is
> much easier and less time consuming than you have pretended
> it is.
>

I mentioned in my post that this was an experiment of sorts. The
experiment wasn't only to see if and how people voted (their recommended
choice), but also to see if people would carefully read my request and
respond with helpful advice. What I found is what I have suspected
happens far too often and seen for myself in forums like this. For the
most part people offering help and advice in these forums either don't
carefully read the original poster's (OP) plea for help or they don't
take the time to offer the help they are asking for. They simply give
their opinions.

I have been around far too long to have not seen may cases where the OP
is chided for not providing enough information for the *experts* here to
be of help. In many cases this is appropriate, but it is too often done
in a scolding, arrogant manner. What you call a simple process is not so
simple to the average person looking here for advice.

In my post I was careful to lay out all of the pertinent facts.

I noted that the hard drive was part of a RAID array of two drives.

I wrote the post in a way so that it could be easily criticized and it
was (i.e. the silly voting request).

I noted in the post that this was an experiment. If people reading my
post don't like that, they could simply decide not to participate.

I made it clear what I wanted the *experts* here to do but some of them
considered me out of hand to be a bafoon, a total idiot, or out of my
mind (that's the arrogant part) and tried to save me from myself by
offering Option 3, which wasn't on my list. Their intentions my have
been good, but *I AM* the original poster and I am telling you that their
advice wasn't helpful. It is not what I asked for. But of course, they
knew better.

I suspect that many lurkers out there are too intimidated to post a
question or ask for advice in these public forums for this very reason.

And if you have happened to read my "A Case of Maxtaken Identity" article
you would have realized that this *IS* a saga and not of my making. I am
only trying to end it by asking for some simple advice on how best to do
that.

I would be remiss to note here the one person who provided me with the
information I needed to make a good decision. Rod Speed in the

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage newsgroup helped me to decide that I had
most likely not damaged my drive. I opted for option one because of his
advice and because I couldn't get verification from an online vendor as
to the model name of one of their advertised drives. I don't want to go
down that 'order one drive and get another' road again - thank you very
much!

Oh yes, I thought you might also want to know that the instructions I
received for my return stated that you should let the Seagate/Maxtor
customer representative know *before* you return the drive if the drive
was part of a RAID array. That is so that they can make sure that you
will receive an *identical* drive. The support person I talked to, Russ,
told me that I should have no problem with this model, but that it might
require a firmware update.

I don't mean to be harsh or to aim these comments specifically at you. I
do appreciate greatly the time you took to write a thoughtful reply and
there really is some good advice in there.

I always ask myself before I click that send button if my reply to the OP
is helpful. I hope this reply is helpful to you. If not, perhaps it
will be to someone else.


Alan Norton
Reviews: ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H Mb's
Choosing the Right Version Of Vista - Vista Confusion Article
Arizona Pics and Cute Animal Pics
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/