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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2006, 02:47 PM
decaturtxcowboy
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Posts: n/a
Default Interestign Data Connect clarification

Stumbled on this today. It was dated 05/ 9/2006

snipped from
http://www.momathome.com/viewfromhom...data_plans.php

Read down to where it talks about "you inherently get unlimited
data access on your PDA or phone even when not connected to a laptop"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is still some confusion here. As a Cingular sales representative who
truly DOES understand the plans, I'll clear this up as best I can.

If you want unlimited access on a standard wap enabled cell phone OR a
Smartphone (Cingular 2125), Media Net Unlimited at $19.99 per month is the
plan to get. This is a truly unlimited data plan but does NOT include text
messaging or picture messaging. The confusion on that is that some users
are confusing Media Net Unlimited with Media Works. Media Works includes 5
MB of internet usage, unlimited MMS (pic/vid) messages, and 1000 text
messages. (I believe this is also why someone thought that Media Net
"unlimited" was really limited at 5 MB... they were confusing it with Media
Works.) Cingular 2125 = Media Net Unlimited.

For owners of PDAs such as the 8125, PDA Connect is the needed unlimited
data plan at $39.99 per month. It includes unlimited internet use and
email, but not text or MMS (pic/vid) messaging. These services are still
pay per use, or you can sign up for a separate text and/or MMS package.

Data Connect is what was formerly referred to as the better named (in my
opinion) laptop connect. This allows you to tether a phone or pda to a
computer to be used as a data modem. The unlimited plan is $79.99 per
month, or currently on special for $59.99 per month with a voice plan. When
subscribing to Data Connect as a FEATURE (it is also available as a
standalone contracted plan with a PCMCIA card that goes into the laptop
directly), *you inherently get unlimited data access on your PDA or phone
even when not connected to a laptop.*

I hope this clears things up a bit. I know some will think these rates are
steep, but they are honestly on par with most every other carrier's similar
plans. And Cingular has wider coverage. I was a happy customer for years
before I was an employee.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2006, 08:41 PM
The Reverend Natural Light
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification

Not that I'm an authority on any of this, but none of the fine print
for the "Data Connect" plan specifies tethering a phone to a laptop.
It specifies a PCMCIA adapter connected directly to the laptop
computer. As far as I can tell, they don't have any plan that covers
tethering a phone to a computer.

... And, I've received text messages and SMS (AOL IM?) that seem to be
included in the MediaNet Unlimited (wasn't charged separately).


-rev



decaturtxcowboy wrote:
> Stumbled on this today. It was dated 05/ 9/2006
>
> Data Connect is what was formerly referred to as the better named (in my
> opinion) laptop connect. This allows you to tether a phone or pda to a
> computer to be used as a data modem. The unlimited plan is $79.99 per
> month, or currently on special for $59.99 per month with a voice plan. When
> subscribing to Data Connect as a FEATURE (it is also available as a
> standalone contracted plan with a PCMCIA card that goes into the laptop
> directly), *you inherently get unlimited data access on your PDA or phone
> even when not connected to a laptop.*
>



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:48 PM
Thurman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification


"decaturtxcowboy" <nope_none_@nowayspam.com> wrote in message
news:iK%6h.6713$Sw1.3094@newssvr13.news.prodigy.co m...
> Stumbled on this today. It was dated 05/ 9/2006
>
> snipped from
> http://www.momathome.com/viewfromhom...data_plans.php
>
> Read down to where it talks about "you inherently get unlimited
> data access on your PDA or phone even when not connected to a laptop"
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is still some confusion here. As a Cingular sales representative who
> truly DOES understand the plans, I'll clear this up as best I can.
>
> If you want unlimited access on a standard wap enabled cell phone OR a
> Smartphone (Cingular 2125), Media Net Unlimited at $19.99 per month is the
> plan to get. This is a truly unlimited data plan but does NOT include text
> messaging or picture messaging. The confusion on that is that some users
> are confusing Media Net Unlimited with Media Works. Media Works includes 5
> MB of internet usage, unlimited MMS (pic/vid) messages, and 1000 text
> messages. (I believe this is also why someone thought that Media Net
> "unlimited" was really limited at 5 MB... they were confusing it with
> Media Works.) Cingular 2125 = Media Net Unlimited.
>
> For owners of PDAs such as the 8125, PDA Connect is the needed unlimited
> data plan at $39.99 per month. It includes unlimited internet use and
> email, but not text or MMS (pic/vid) messaging. These services are still
> pay per use, or you can sign up for a separate text and/or MMS package.
>
> Data Connect is what was formerly referred to as the better named (in my
> opinion) laptop connect. This allows you to tether a phone or pda to a
> computer to be used as a data modem. The unlimited plan is $79.99 per
> month, or currently on special for $59.99 per month with a voice plan.
> When subscribing to Data Connect as a FEATURE (it is also available as a
> standalone contracted plan with a PCMCIA card that goes into the laptop
> directly), *you inherently get unlimited data access on your PDA or phone
> even when not connected to a laptop.*
>
> I hope this clears things up a bit. I know some will think these rates are
> steep, but they are honestly on par with most every other carrier's
> similar plans. And Cingular has wider coverage. I was a happy customer for
> years before I was an employee.


Things changed again today with the release of the PDA 8525 (HTC Hermes).
From the page about the 8525, choose 'services'.

Now unlimited Internet with 'corporate email' is $39.99/mon. Tethering is
now specifically mentioned as permitted.

http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-s..._sku=sku310005



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2006, 06:24 AM
RMZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification

That sounds about right according to Cingular's confusing written
policy.

I respect that you work for the company and are trying to clarify their
policy, but here's some information you may not have. This are not
opinion pieces, they are assertive facts.

1. On the SmartPhone devices (i.e. 2125, 8125, 3125) these models have
a program called ModemLink that "tethers" in a way that the service
provider can not detect tethering by conventional means, to use
non-technical terms, it just passes the data on through to the virtual
"modem" driver running on the desktop PC via USB. I got this from a
Microsoft Engineer close to the design of the Windows Mobile 5 OS that
runs on these devices.

2. Authorized or not, I know several people who "tether" regularly over
a MediaNET umlimited account (using MediaNet authorized WAP.CINGULAR
gateway, not ISP.CINGULAR) without any disconnect or strange billing
issues, we pay our $20/month and are glad we bought a Windows Mobile
based phone. The method by which this can be done actually came from
Microsoft, one infamous Microsoft Software Engineer who publicly posted
on his blog back in Fev 06 gave the details, I communicated with him by
e-mail last month and he confirmed, nine months of happy MediaNET
Unlimited tethering and no unexpected charges.

3. For further confirmation, after hours of being tossed around from
dept to dept. I finally had a Cingular rep (over their phone support)
tell me that tethering was allowed although "not publicly advertised"
over their $20/month MediaNET with their Microsoft SmartPhones "as long
as you use the WAP gateway". I was also told that Cingular does not
audit the WAP gateway if a customer has MediaNET Unlimited on their
account. Want to stay on 24/7, doesn't matter to them, this is one of
those rare times where "unlimited" means exactly that. Cingular could
of course add terms to change how "unlimited" is defined, but they
haven't as of yet.

While I applicate you trying to clear this up, what I've stated above
is fact. I'm sorry you work for Cingular, as with all of the major cell
providers in the US, they are a despicable company, lacking ethics,
taste and character (see resent class action lawsuits). From a
technical stand point, their "data connect" rate plans are shady. If
you make your money on commision, I would advise you not hide this
powerful feature of the Microsoft SmartPhones, I wouldn't say do
something that would upset your employer, but you can probably find a
creative way to let customers know about this feature of the
SmartPhones, it was a major selling point for me and has paid off many
times. You could always say "Cingular reservers the right to change how
they define Unlimited on the MediaNET", which is true.

The facts are in the data.....












decaturtxcowboy wrote:
> Stumbled on this today. It was dated 05/ 9/2006
>
> snipped from
> http://www.momathome.com/viewfromhom...data_plans.php
>
> Read down to where it talks about "you inherently get unlimited
> data access on your PDA or phone even when not connected to a laptop"
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is still some confusion here. As a Cingular sales representative who
> truly DOES understand the plans, I'll clear this up as best I can.
>
> If you want unlimited access on a standard wap enabled cell phone OR a
> Smartphone (Cingular 2125), Media Net Unlimited at $19.99 per month is the
> plan to get. This is a truly unlimited data plan but does NOT include text
> messaging or picture messaging. The confusion on that is that some users
> are confusing Media Net Unlimited with Media Works. Media Works includes 5
> MB of internet usage, unlimited MMS (pic/vid) messages, and 1000 text
> messages. (I believe this is also why someone thought that Media Net
> "unlimited" was really limited at 5 MB... they were confusing it with Media
> Works.) Cingular 2125 = Media Net Unlimited.
>
> For owners of PDAs such as the 8125, PDA Connect is the needed unlimited
> data plan at $39.99 per month. It includes unlimited internet use and
> email, but not text or MMS (pic/vid) messaging. These services are still
> pay per use, or you can sign up for a separate text and/or MMS package.
>
> Data Connect is what was formerly referred to as the better named (in my
> opinion) laptop connect. This allows you to tether a phone or pda to a
> computer to be used as a data modem. The unlimited plan is $79.99 per
> month, or currently on special for $59.99 per month with a voice plan. When
> subscribing to Data Connect as a FEATURE (it is also available as a
> standalone contracted plan with a PCMCIA card that goes into the laptop
> directly), *you inherently get unlimited data access on your PDA or phone
> even when not connected to a laptop.*
>
> I hope this clears things up a bit. I know some will think these rates are
> steep, but they are honestly on par with most every other carrier's similar
> plans. And Cingular has wider coverage. I was a happy customer for years
> before I was an employee.



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2006, 11:47 AM
decaturtxcowboy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification

RMZ wrote:
> That sounds about right according to Cingular's confusing written
> policy.
>
> I respect that you work for the company and are trying to clarify their
> policy, but here's some information you may not have. This are not
> opinion pieces, they are assertive facts.


No, *I* don't work for Cingular. I was quoting from a another web page.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2006, 02:21 PM
John Navas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification

On 16 Nov 2006 23:24:05 -0800, "RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com> wrote in
<1163748245.858485.147370@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups. com>:

>That sounds about right according to Cingular's confusing written
>policy.
>
>I respect that you work for the company and are trying to clarify their
>policy, but here's some information you may not have. This are not
>opinion pieces, they are assertive facts.
>
>1. On the SmartPhone devices (i.e. 2125, 8125, 3125) these models have
>a program called ModemLink that "tethers" in a way that the service
>provider can not detect tethering by conventional means, to use
>non-technical terms, it just passes the data on through to the virtual
>"modem" driver running on the desktop PC via USB. I got this from a
>Microsoft Engineer close to the design of the Windows Mobile 5 OS that
>runs on these devices.


There actually are ways tethering like that can be detected and/or
defeated. Next time check with a cellular engineer, instead of a
Windoze jockey.

>2. Authorized or not, I know several people who "tether" regularly over
>a MediaNET umlimited account (using MediaNet authorized WAP.CINGULAR
>gateway, not ISP.CINGULAR) without any disconnect or strange billing
>issues, we pay our $20/month and are glad we bought a Windows Mobile
>based phone. The method by which this can be done actually came from
>Microsoft, one infamous Microsoft Software Engineer who publicly posted
>on his blog back in Fev 06 gave the details, I communicated with him by
>e-mail last month and he confirmed, nine months of happy MediaNET
>Unlimited tethering and no unexpected charges.


How to do that with virtually any GSM mobile device actually far
predates anything from Microsoft -- I posted it to Usenet shortly after
the original MEdia Works Unlimited was released by Cingular. Again,
next time check cellular resources, not Microsloth.

>3. For further confirmation, after hours of being tossed around from
>dept to dept. I finally had a Cingular rep (over their phone support)
>tell me that tethering was allowed although "not publicly advertised"
>over their $20/month MediaNET with their Microsoft SmartPhones "as long
>as you use the WAP gateway". I was also told that Cingular does not
>audit the WAP gateway if a customer has MediaNET Unlimited on their
>account.


Apparently true.

>Want to stay on 24/7, doesn't matter to them, this is one of
>those rare times where "unlimited" means exactly that. Cingular could
>of course add terms to change how "unlimited" is defined, but they
>haven't as of yet.


Cingular apparently does look at the top (ab)users of wireless data, an
easy thing to do from back end (e.g., billing) systems (not the WAP
gateway). See "Article re CELCOs clamping down on 'unlimited'"
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cellular.cingular/browse_frm/thread/c9a24a0c82061d9e/>
and <http://www.techweb.com/wire/mobile/187202664>:

The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday that Verizon Wireless has
been sending out service cancellation notices to high-speed EV-DO
cellular data customers who the operator claims over-use the
service. The Journal also reported that Sprint and Cingular are
assessing additional fees to heavy 3G users.

>While I applicate you trying to clear this up, what I've stated above
>is fact. ...


Not entirely.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2006, 05:41 PM
RMZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification


John Navas wrote:
> On 16 Nov 2006 23:24:05 -0800, "RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com> wrote in
> <1163748245.858485.147370@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups. com>:
>
> >That sounds about right according to Cingular's confusing written
> >policy.
> >
> >I respect that you work for the company and are trying to clarify their
> >policy, but here's some information you may not have. This are not
> >opinion pieces, they are assertive facts.
> >
> >1. On the SmartPhone devices (i.e. 2125, 8125, 3125) these models have
> >a program called ModemLink that "tethers" in a way that the service
> >provider can not detect tethering by conventional means, to use
> >non-technical terms, it just passes the data on through to the virtual
> >"modem" driver running on the desktop PC via USB. I got this from a
> >Microsoft Engineer close to the design of the Windows Mobile 5 OS that
> >runs on these devices.

>
> There actually are ways tethering like that can be detected and/or
> defeated. Next time check with a cellular engineer, instead of a
> Windoze jockey.
>


The only way your statement is true is if Cingular has some form of
application written into the device OS firmware that logs this sort of
thing and makes it available to the provider. If that were the case, a
Windows Engineer would know, since the Smartphone devices run Windows.
The Windows Mobile 5 OS controls every aspect of the hardware.

So can you explain how, I mean do you understand the technical aspects
of how the provider could detect this and say for certain this
Microsoft Engineer is mistaken? If so, in laymans terms I'd like to
know. Mr. Navas, I'm a software engineer by profession, and I
understand the technical aspects of the Windows Mobile 5 devices quite
well. I won't claim the same for the other hardware, but with these
devices and given my source I believe 100% you are mistaken on this,
but if you can explain the technical aspects to justify what you've
said then I may change my mind.

The only way I can think of that they could audit this is if they could
detect how often ModemLink is running. The security architecture of
SmartPhones is published, there is no way for a provider to audit
what's running on the device. What they can do is make it so only
certified applications can run and they can also maintain a list server
of unauthorized application that they do not allow. That's the extent
of it, the ModemLink application in question is part of the firmware
and can not be blocked in this way.

The provider can only audit the amount of data and the source IP
addresses that the device is connecting to and of course they can tell
which gateway you are connecting to.

They can anaysis the data and if they, for example see that you're
accessing a media heavy site like YouTube.com they could make an
assumption that you are tethering, but the resources required to do
this kind of web traffic marshalling makes it unlikely, and it would be
extreemly hard on the Windows Mobile platform, because these devices
are hand held computers, for all they know I could be developing a
mobile YouTube player.

Windows Mobile blurs the line between desktop PC, PDA and mobile phone.
For a technical standpoint I would imagine it's a nightmare for a
company like Cingular that preys on consumer ignorance with their
unethical data connect policies. You want to to look at www.google.com
on you phone, fine if you want to pipe that data to a desktop or laptop
PC the logical design would be not to not restrict that, which is
another reason I believe my source.

I would also assert that if Cingular had the technical means to audit
this and charge customers using ModemLink in a way that violates their
written policy (as many, including yourself have claimed) that they
would do so. That would makes sesne wouldn't it? But they haven't.

It's not rocket science, you combine the facts you know and then add in
the second hand information you have from quality sources, then you
apply a little deductive reasoning and you end up with pretty good
theory.

Of course you're free to use whatever system you want to form your
beliefs what you want. From you comments I take it that comes heavily
from second hand information Cingular themselves. But as the great
Economist Steven Levitt has said "conventional wisdom is often wrong".
The answer is often outside the box.





> >2. Authorized or not, I know several people who "tether" regularly over
> >a MediaNET umlimited account (using MediaNet authorized WAP.CINGULAR
> >gateway, not ISP.CINGULAR) without any disconnect or strange billing
> >issues, we pay our $20/month and are glad we bought a Windows Mobile
> >based phone. The method by which this can be done actually came from
> >Microsoft, one infamous Microsoft Software Engineer who publicly posted
> >on his blog back in Fev 06 gave the details, I communicated with him by
> >e-mail last month and he confirmed, nine months of happy MediaNET
> >Unlimited tethering and no unexpected charges.

>
> How to do that with virtually any GSM mobile device actually far
> predates anything from Microsoft -- I posted it to Usenet shortly after
> the original MEdia Works Unlimited was released by Cingular. Again,
> next time check cellular resources, not Microsloth.
>
> >3. For further confirmation, after hours of being tossed around from
> >dept to dept. I finally had a Cingular rep (over their phone support)
> >tell me that tethering was allowed although "not publicly advertised"
> >over their $20/month MediaNET with their Microsoft SmartPhones "as long
> >as you use the WAP gateway". I was also told that Cingular does not
> >audit the WAP gateway if a customer has MediaNET Unlimited on their
> >account.

>
> Apparently true.
>
> >Want to stay on 24/7, doesn't matter to them, this is one of
> >those rare times where "unlimited" means exactly that. Cingular could
> >of course add terms to change how "unlimited" is defined, but they
> >haven't as of yet.

>
> Cingular apparently does look at the top (ab)users of wireless data, an
> easy thing to do from back end (e.g., billing) systems (not the WAP
> gateway). See "Article re CELCOs clamping down on 'unlimited'"
> <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cellular.cingular/browse_frm/thread/c9a24a0c82061d9e/>
> and <http://www.techweb.com/wire/mobile/187202664>:
>
> The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday that Verizon Wireless has
> been sending out service cancellation notices to high-speed EV-DO
> cellular data customers who the operator claims over-use the
> service. The Journal also reported that Sprint and Cingular are
> assessing additional fees to heavy 3G users.
>
> >While I applicate you trying to clear this up, what I've stated above
> >is fact. ...

>
> Not entirely.
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
> John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2006, 05:52 PM
John Navas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Interestign Data Connect clarification

On 18 Nov 2006 10:41:31 -0800, "RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com> wrote in
<1163875291.511146.28770@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.c om>:

>John Navas wrote:


>> There actually are ways tethering like that can be detected and/or
>> defeated. Next time check with a cellular engineer, instead of a
>> Windoze jockey.

>
>The only way your statement is true is if Cingular has some form of
>application written into the device OS firmware that logs this sort of
>thing and makes it available to the provider. ...


Again, not true.

>So can you explain how, I mean do you understand the technical aspects
>of how the provider could detect this and say for certain this
>Microsoft Engineer is mistaken? If so, in laymans terms I'd like to
>know.


I do understand, but I'm not going to go into it here -- see last line
below.

>Mr. Navas, I'm a software engineer by profession, and I
>understand the technical aspects of the Windows Mobile 5 devices quite
>well.


But apparently not the technical aspects of GSM, which is equally
important. I, also a software person by profession, understand both.

>I would also assert that if Cingular had the technical means to audit
>this and charge customers using ModemLink in a way that violates their
>written policy (as many, including yourself have claimed) that they
>would do so. That would makes sesne wouldn't it? But they haven't.


I disagree -- see below.

>It's not rocket science, you combine the facts you know and then add in
>the second hand information you have from quality sources, then you
>apply a little deductive reasoning and you end up with pretty good
>theory.


Which may nonetheless be wrong.

From all of the available evidence (including statements in the press)
I personally think Cingular is (currently at least) choosing to ignore a
not unreasonable amount of use that's contrary to the service agreement;
i.e., to only go after the relatively small number of heavy (ab)users.

> Of course you're free to use whatever system you want to form your
>beliefs what you want.


Of course.

>From you comments I take it that comes heavily
>from second hand information Cingular themselves. But as the great
>Economist Steven Levitt has said "conventional wisdom is often wrong".
>The answer is often outside the box.


That's sufficiently arrogant and offensive that I'm not going to respond
further. Have a nice day.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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