Re: Breaking Rumor: Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271837080.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> You are correct and that was a typo. It's $420, not $230. $230 is the
> N800 price.
>
>

I guess I'd better call the girl at buy.com back and apologize....(c;

Damn....I wanted one for $230!

The following is my current scorecard of iToy vs. N800.

Cute/fashion statement: iToy
iToy also has packaging suitable for being presented to
Her Majesty The Queen at the Waldorf-Astoria. It makes
me think of those silly mints they leave on your pillow.

Music player: iToy
N800 can play more formats (and you can load lots of
other codecs), but the browser sucks far too much.

Movie player: N800
iToy has a better browser, but the inability to play other
formats (not even QuickTime!) and much video resolution
tips it to N800. Typically, you won't have as many movies
as you will songs, so the browser lossage isn't as much of
an issue.

External Video: iToy
iToy can output composite (NTSC or PAL) or component via
optional $50 cables. Although the cables are overpriced,
they do include a USB AC adapter. N800 doesn't have any
provision for external video at all.

Photo viewing: N800
The browser is still an issue, but photos appear washed
out and grainy on iToy compared to N800. Resolution
counts!!

Audio: N800
N800 has stereo speakers. iPhone just has the one, and
iPod Touch has none at all. Both have earphone jacks,
and both include el cheapo earphones (N800's is also a
microphone) that you'll immediately throw away and replace
with good ones.

Camera: tie (both suck)
N800 and iPhone both have a crummy camera. iPod Touch
has no camera at all. Last year, that camera may have
been alright, but today's crop of mobile phones have
MUCH better cameras.

YouTube: N800
iToy has smoother play while simultaneously loading the
video, but once loaded N800 plays equally smoothly
without the digital video artifacts on iToy (a side by
side comparison is helpful here). Also, the jerkiness on
YouTube playing on N800 is fixed in OS2008.

Other mobile media: N800, but only slightly
N800 supports web radio. N800 (but not N810) also has an
FM radio tuner. Neither N800, nor iToy, has a TV tuner;
I expect that will change in a few years once the dust
settles a bit on mobile digital TV. Japan especially has
numerous models of mobile phones with analog and 1seg
digital TV tuners.

Web browsing: N800
Once again, resolution counts. iToy's 320x480 is simply
inadequate for "the real web", and loss of 10% of the
screen for controls is a bad design bug. I tried the
special iToy web access at Starbucks (I have a preexisting
T-Mobile Wi-Fi account that I've used on the N800). It's
as if they went to special effort to make iToy *less*
usable (you don't get the same screen that you get with
other devices)!

Email: N800, with third-party software
Both vendor-supplied email tools suck, but on N800 you
can install other Linux email tools.

Contacts Manager: iToy
This was a tough call, since iToy's contacts manager isn't
at all good and you can't import contacts (you can only
synchronize through iTunes). But N800's contacts manager,
in spite of allowing import, is worse.

Calendar: iToy, by default
There really isn't any truly great Linux calendar tool.

Text input: N800
N800 gives you the choice of touch, stylus, or Bluetooth
keyboard input. iToy only lets you do touch. N810 also
offers a chiklet keyboard that is quite a bit better than
what you normally see.

Applets: N800
This was a tough call, since iToy has nice stock and
weather applets (basically the same as on Macintosh).
However, N800 has more vendor-supplied applets (including
FM radio and webcast applets) and lots of third party
applets since it's an open platform.

Market support: iToy
No question here. Nokia is simply not at all serious
about marketing N800 or N810 beyond its tiny niche.

CJK support: iToy
I say this with reluctance, since N800 has excellent
CJK support via third-party software. But it is
third-party software. Apple supplies CJK as part of
the base iToy software.

Applications: N800
Standing behind N800 is the entire body of Linux software,
plus a very active development community. If you believe
in Open Source, N800 is the only choice.

Downloading: N800
N800 permits its filesystem to be accessed via USB. iToy
only allows limited USB access and only via iTunes.

Expandability: N800
No question here, due to full Bluetooth, and two SDHC card
slots. N800 uses standard mini USB cables, unlike iToy
where you need a special overpriced cable.

Communications: N800
No question here. N800 has a full Bluetooth profile and
can talk to any Bluetooth mobile phone without lock to a
particular mobile phone provider or technology. You can't
do 3G on an iToy!

Vendor: N800
Once again, no choice. Apple actively attempts to block
people from modifying their iToys; Nokia encourages it
and hosts the community.

Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else (and
doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160G, only accesses email and
the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand) locations for casual
use, and isn't interested in any third-party solutions.

Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to email and
web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build and/or install
third-party applications.

Good match for mylo: someone who wants good resolution and a keyboard, but
doesn't want to pay for an N810 and doesn't care about third-party
applications. I think this is a smaller market than either iToy or N800.

Enterprise users are not a good match for either device as they currently
stand. With considerable local development effort, N810 could be made
suitable for enterprise use (these guys really want a keyboard) but it
won't compete well with Blackberry.

Conclusion/observations:

Note that, with better screen resolution and an open platform, iToy would
be a clear winner. Most of the reasons why N800 wins boil down to these
two lacks on iToy.

There is really no reason for such tiny screen resolution on iToy. N800's
screen is only about 1/2 inch longer on the diagonal, yet is 800x480
compared to 320x480 on iToy.

I doubt very much that, even with the promised SDK, that iToy will be an
open platform, and this is iToy's Achilles' Heel. Why shouldn't you be
allowed to use a Bluetooth keyboard for text entry? Why shouldn't the
owner of the device be allowed to modify it to his heart's content?

Apple's obsession with control over their customers (and nickel and
dimeing them to death) ultimately makes their products much less
competitive than they would otherwise be.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, larry posted:
> I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I never
> use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
> rdesktop ported to the N800, right?

The reason is access to contacts and calendar when you do not have
Internet access or when the Internet access would be too costly (I
wouldn't want to run rdesktop over anything slower than Wi-Fi).

I also normally keep all incoming access to Windows machines closed and
locked down.

> Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
> MAC.

AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

At 27 Jan 2008 19:53:47 -0800 Mark Crispin wrote:

> Market support: iToy
> No question here. Nokia is simply not at all serious
> about marketing N800 or N810 beyond its tiny niche.


I liked your comparison, and had little to add but this thought...

Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they just
slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an "N801"?
Even if phone use required a wired or bluetooth headset, it would complete
the unit's data connectivity options list, and they could market it against
the iPhone and HTC Advantage (HTC's large form-factor hi-res Windows Mobile
Tablet phone.)

At 28 Jan 2008 03:25:54 +0000 larry wrote:

> I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I never
> use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
> rdesktop ported to the N800, right?


No, RD clients are for doing things the mobile device can't do- not things
they can!

> Why run 2 mailboxes and try to figure out where that email went,

That's why the Good Lord gaves us IMAP. You can run 50 e-mail clients on
50 different devices and they all have up to date identical inboxes, sent
items and saved folders, etc.

> when you can run your master computer from anyplace on the planet
> with rdesktop on the N800 connected to Remote Desktop on the XP/Vista
> boxes at home and have your whole system at your fingertips?!

Because it's a complete pain in the arse compared to just hitting
"send/receive" on a phone!

Load these freewares and compare again.....


Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:


> Music player: iToy
> N800 can play more formats (and you can load lots of
> other codecs), but the browser sucks far too much.

Not sure why you're using a browser to play music. Here, it's a tossup
between Canola 2, which was just upgraded and is VERY iPhoney acting,
and Kagu, which supports A2DP to my stereo BT headphones and scrobbling.

Canola 2 wins the pretty context. Kagu uses less resources. UKMP is
the most popular downloaded media player. It also front-ends for
mplayer (not Nokia media player) but I use mplayer, directly, for DivX
movies because the tablet sometimes is swamped playing full DivX
decoding and wide-screen rendering of fast moving scenes overloading it.
Any more unloading you do only enhances the beautiful movie play. Music
never overruns, even when Canola 2 is downloading artist photos, album
cover art and all the glitz off the net servers.

>
> Movie player: N800
> iToy has a better browser, but the inability to play other
> formats (not even QuickTime!) and much video resolution
> tips it to N800. Typically, you won't have as many movies
> as you will songs, so the browser lossage isn't as much of
> an issue.

mplayer, the smallest and lightest weight interface plays the most movie
formats, of all of them. IF the movie decoding/rendering isn't
overrunning the 333 Mhz ARM processor in the N800, using CANOLA 2 to
play the movie, especially the 4:3 format narrow movies, wins. Canola 2
forces the format to fill the wide screen of the tablet, beautifully,
unless the movie compression rate is just so high the DivX decoder sucks
up all the CPU cycles, making it into a fast slide show on the screen.
Already widescreen movies DivX or Xvid avis is best played with
mplayer's much simpler, very low overhead, interface. Movies downloaded
from alt.binaries.movies.divx, simply copied off the PC onto the 8GB
SDHC card and plugged into the tablet are simply beautiful.

> Audio: N800
> N800 has stereo speakers. iPhone just has the one, and
> iPod Touch has none at all. Both have earphone jacks,
> and both include el cheapo earphones (N800's is also a
> microphone) that you'll immediately throw away and replace
> with good ones.

N800's microphone is that tiny slit in the top just to the right of the
power/lock button on the top above the screen. No headphone plugging
necessary to get mic on Skype. Skype doesn't echo because you're using
the speakers at all, either.

N800 needs a digital audio COMPANDER, really bad. LOUD mp3 files play
at an acceptable volume, close, but not completely wide open. Divx
movies never have high volume levels, so many movies are just to soft to
hear unless you plug in the phones. N800 needs a PREAMP stage so the
volume controls don't need to be set as high as possible just to hear
most stuff. It's NEVER "too loud" on the tiny speakers.

>
> Camera: tie (both suck)
> N800 and iPhone both have a crummy camera. iPod Touch
> has no camera at all. Last year, that camera may have
> been alright, but today's crop of mobile phones have
> MUCH better cameras.

N800's is a pinhole webcam. Works OK in LIGHTED scenes for a webcam
ONLY. It's not a picture taker and never claimed to be. Hackers wrote
the "camera" app Nokia never intended. It's for Googletalk. Too bad
noone at Skype ever wrote a Skype interface for it....

>
> Other mobile media: N800, but only slightly
> N800 supports web radio. N800 (but not N810) also has an
> FM radio tuner. Neither N800, nor iToy, has a TV tuner;
> I expect that will change in a few years once the dust
> settles a bit on mobile digital TV. Japan especially has
> numerous models of mobile phones with analog and 1seg
> digital TV tuners.

ATSC digital television is NEVER going to work in a moving vehicle. I
have an ATSC USB TV plug for my laptop. The picture is BEAUTIFUL when
the car is at rest. AT 3mph, the picture LOCKS from the multipath
tearing up the codec with timing errors, even 1/2 mile from a 25MW (ERP)
channel 24 transmitter. Knowing several of the local TV engineers, I
asked them about it. They all agreed mobile TV from TV stations is
history when old NTSC is turned off. crappy TV video streamed over the
net, of course, works...if you can stand to watch it.

>
> Web browsing: N800
> Once again, resolution counts. iToy's 320x480 is simply
> inadequate for "the real web", and loss of 10% of the
> screen for controls is a bad design bug. I tried the
> special iToy web access at Starbucks (I have a preexisting
> T-Mobile Wi-Fi account that I've used on the N800). It's
> as if they went to special effort to make iToy *less*
> usable (you don't get the same screen that you get with
> other devices)!

I also think the revelation that iPhone cannot support high-resolution
stylus clicking on a crowded webpage full of links also trashes it web
browser usefulness. That capacitive screen I just found out about can't
pinpoint which link you're clicking so close together with any accuracy
using a finger.

> Calendar: iToy, by default
> There really isn't any truly great Linux calendar tool.

That was true a month ago, but Gnome Palmtop Environment (GPE) has been
ported to the new tablets in modules any user can download and install
from the GPE Suite he likes:
http://gpe.linuxtogo.org/

Here's the calendar module.
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2007/gpe-calendar/

The contacts module bears looking into, also.

The GPE suite of apps comes from:
http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2007/office-business/

Of course, if you'd rather use your favorite Palm OS apps, they run on
the tablet under Garnet VM:
http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/
Once booted, Garnet VM syncs with Palm Desktop just like any Palm OS
device...over the wifi link to your router...or over the net if you're
away. Just tell Palm Desktop's Hotsync to use Ethernet to look for it's
mate, not the IR or palm cable. Syncs perfectly to the same Palm
Desktop any Treo Palm phone uses.

There's yet another, maybe 2 now, PIM apps I've run across but can't
find quickly at the moment.

I don't fool with all this Palm Pilot nonsense. If I want to see my
contact list or other important document, I boot rdesktop and look it up
by remote control on the big computer at home, same with email and
usenet. One email client is all I can stomach, thanks.

>
> Text input: N800
> N800 gives you the choice of touch, stylus, or Bluetooth
> keyboard input. iToy only lets you do touch. N810 also
> offers a chiklet keyboard that is quite a bit better than
> what you normally see.

The Nokia BT keyboard really expands the text capability of the N8xx
tablets. Stylusing or finger typing on some virtual keyboard sucks for
a document like this message I'm typing on the BT keyboard over
rdesktop, here. I notice you left out, as I would because I don't like
it, the stylus writing to text input app the N800 comes with. It's a
toy to me, too.

The N810's thumb keyboard isn't for typist, either, like the BT
keyboards are. Typing a letter on a blackberry sucks.

>
> Applets: N800
> This was a tough call, since iToy has nice stock and
> weather applets (basically the same as on Macintosh).
> However, N800 has more vendor-supplied applets (including
> FM radio and webcast applets) and lots of third party
> applets since it's an open platform.

.....notably Simple Launcher, which adds desktop icons to launch
favorites, instead of the tree of program files of the GUI....
.....OMWeather for weather app. No need to boot it. Your weather is a
series of daily forecasts, each day in its own custom icon.....
.....Internet Radio applet, an extension of the Media Player that makes
listening to internet radio stations SO easy to access/point/click
without all the webpage spam to wade through to listen in.
.....the tray app that lets you see your memory usage and CPU loading, in
addition to adding a great screen snapshot with programmable delay.

>
> Applications: N800
> Standing behind N800 is the entire body of Linux software,
> plus a very active development community. If you believe
> in Open Source, N800 is the only choice.

Iphone? Apps?! Isn't that an oxymoron??

>
> Downloading: N800
> N800 permits its filesystem to be accessed via USB. iToy
> only allows limited USB access and only via iTunes.

N800 also allows its file system to be accessed over Bluetooth and can
access the file system of my MotoROKR Z6m SELLphone over Bluetooth from
its native file manager, which is designed to keep the common user OUT
of the system files.

>
> Expandability: N800
> No question here, due to full Bluetooth, and two SDHC card
> slots. N800 uses standard mini USB cables, unlike iToy
> where you need a special overpriced cable.
>
> Communications: N800
> No question here. N800 has a full Bluetooth profile and
> can talk to any Bluetooth mobile phone without lock to a
> particular mobile phone provider or technology. You can't
> do 3G on an iToy!

The WiMax N800 is coming soon....ready for Xeon deployment with its
Sprint partner...already setup.

>
> Enterprise users are not a good match for either device as they
> currently stand. With considerable local development effort, N810
> could be made suitable for enterprise use (these guys really want a
> keyboard) but it won't compete well with Blackberry.

Many new office apps are being ported from Linux to the N800/810 Maemo
Linux. Gnumeric spreadsheet is already ported and gives massive
spreadsheet ability to the little tablet in your pocket. It works well
with Excel files from the office system and may other formats.

Apiword (www.apiword.com) was just ported to the tablet, giving the
tablet a completely flexible on-the-road word processor to go with its
nice little Nokia (or other manufacturers) BT keyboards. Apiword is
every bit as good as Micro$oft Word for an enterprise user. It's also
ported and always free to MAC OSX, Linux and Windows users. They even
encourage you to give it away to others, a concept that may be hard to
grasp with such a fine WP on any device.


>
> Conclusion/observations:
>
>
> Apple's obsession with control over their customers (and nickel and
> dimeing them to death) ultimately makes their products much less
> competitive than they would otherwise be.
>

I think this has always been Apple's worst "feature"....corporate
control.

Someone FINALLY started a huge list of N770/800/810 SOFTWARE
REPOSITORIES, which has been somewhat of a problem finding off-Maemo-
based software developed for the tablets.
http://www.gronmayer.com/it/index.ph...&system=maemo3
Easy repository integration into N8xx Application Manager is a click of
the button if you see something of interest (assuming the other 127 apps
haven't run you completely out of memory, yet, of course).

Some repositories have lots of apps and libraries:

Maemo Hackers:
Package:
[main]
dropbear-client (v. 0.49-1mh3)
dropbear-server (v. 0.49-1mh3)
gammu (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
geoclue (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-examples (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-geocode-yahoo (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-map-yahoo (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-gpsd (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-hostip (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-manual (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libao-dev (v. 0.8.6-2mh1)
libao2 (v. 0.8.6-2mh1)
libgammu-dev (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
libgammu0 (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
libgcrypt11 (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-dbg (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-dev (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-doc (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgeoclue-dev (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libgeoclue0 (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libgnomevfsutil-dev (v. 0.1.2)
libgnomevfsutil0 (v. 0.1.2)
libgnutls11 (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgnutls11-dbg (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgnutls11-dev (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgpg-error-dev (v. 1.0-1mh1)
libgpg-error0 (v. 1.0-1mh1)
libgtksourceview1.0-0 (v. 1.4.2-1)
libgtksourceview1.0-dev (v. 1.4.2-1)
liblzo-dev (v. 1.08-3mh1)
liblzo1 (v. 1.08-3mh1)
libmeanwhile-dev (v. 1.0.2-1mh1)
libmeanwhile1 (v. 1.0.2-1mh1)
libncurses5 (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncurses5-dbg (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncurses5-dev (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5 (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5-dbg (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5-dev (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libpcre3 (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libpcre3-dev (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libpcrecpp0 (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libsoup2.2-8 (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libsoup2.2-dev (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libsoup2.2-doc (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libtasn1-2 (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-bin (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-dbg (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-dev (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libvte-common (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte-dev (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte-doc (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte4 (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte4-dbg (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
macchanger (v. 1.5.0-1)
maemo-blog (v. 0.1.8bora1)
maemo-gaim (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-data (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-dev (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-de (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-engb (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-es (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-fr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-it (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-ptbr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-gadugadu (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-irc (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-jabber (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-meanwhile (v. 1.2.7-1mh2)
maemo-gaim-protocol-msn (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-napster (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-novell (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-oscar (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-yahoo (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-zephyr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
mh-shot-tool (v. 0.0.4bora1)
ncurses-base (v. 5.5-1mh2)
ncurses-bin (v. 5.5-1mh2)
ncurses-term (v. 5.5-1mh2)
nginx (v. 0.5.32-0mh1)
osso-statusbar-cpu (v. 0.6.0)
osso-xterm (v. 0.13.mh24bora1)
pcregrep (v. 6.7-1mh1)
php5-cli (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-dev (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-fastcgi (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-fastcgi-dev (v. 5.2.4-0mh2)
php5-fastcgi-pear (v. 5.2.4-0mh2)
php5-pear (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
quilt (v. 0.45-6mh1)
sgt-puzzles (v. 6844-2mh3)
ttf-bitstream-vera (v. 1.10-4mh1)
wordpress (v. 2.0.9-0mh1)

others specialize in one or two major apps like Maemo Mapper.

There's way too much software to run...(c;

In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.panda .com>,
Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

>
> > Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
> > MAC.
>
> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.

you might want to let apple know http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.panda .com>,
Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else (and
> doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160G, only accesses email and
> the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand) locations for casual
> use, and isn't interested in any third-party solutions.
>
> Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to email and
> web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build and/or install
> third-party applications.


The previous summary would have come off as nearly fair and reasonable
if you hadn't insisted on dumping that stupid "iToy" remark in every
other sentence.

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, larry posted:
>> I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I
never
>> use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
>> rdesktop ported to the N800, right?
>
> The reason is access to contacts and calendar when you do not have
> Internet access or when the Internet access would be too costly (I
> wouldn't want to run rdesktop over anything slower than Wi-Fi).
>
> I also normally keep all incoming access to Windows machines closed
and
> locked down.
>
>> Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to
a
>> MAC.
>
> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/mrc
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
>

Oh, sorry. I guess it would serve a purpose on some systems that don't
have good coverage.

Remote Desktop on an odd port behind a router that logs all connects to
the port is quite safe, especially with the massive passwords I use..(c;

I've never had even a scan of this port number to the router for years.
You don't have to buy or worse yet, subscribe to some bogus remote
access software that's no better. It works great, especially over wifi,
but is acceptable over the poor delay times SELLular data delivers.
SELLular does make typing on rdesktop a little frustrating if you type
fast, as I do. It seems to send out one packet for each character, and
the packets arrive late, or duplicate themselves making several oooo's
when you only typed one. If you just slow down the typing, that all
stops. The latency on SELLular just makes it more challenging and they
tell me there's nothing they can do about it.

I do have access, however, even in the SC boondocks....(c;

Thanks for the MAC info. I bet you can RENT Mac access...(c;

LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:

> http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

Unlimited Managed Systems edition: $499/administrator (MB423Z/A)

10 Managed Systems edition: $299/administrator (MB422Z/A)

Wow! Kinda pricey, even for MAC!

That's a little too much just to look at your email client by remote
control.....(sigh)

LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:

> In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.panda .com>,
> Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:
>
>>
>> > Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
>> > MAC.
>>
>> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.
>
> you might want to let apple know http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/
>

I noticed on the Apple iPhone specifications page it says it supports
Bluetooth 2.0 + something else. Does it support the DUN profile so you can
connect the BT to someone ELSE's SELLphone DUN to get on a faster network
than 2G? BT 2.0 hauls ass to an EVDO phone from the N800 tablet, but the
SELLphones have awful latency issues for some apps.

Can you connect an external DUN to the iPhone from, say, my tablet to use
the iPhone as a modem to ATT EDGE?

Mitch <mitch@hawaii.rr> wrote in
news:270120082140543092%mitch@hawaii.rr:

> In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.panda .com>,
> Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:
>
>> Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else
>> (and doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160G, only accesses
>> email and the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand)
>> locations for casual use, and isn't interested in any third-party
>> solutions.
>>
>> Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to
>> email and web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build
>> and/or install third-party applications.
>
>
> The previous summary would have come off as nearly fair and reasonable
> if you hadn't insisted on dumping that stupid "iToy" remark in every
> other sentence.
>

Why? It's just another toy SELLphone, isn't it?

Is this like walking up to a Scientologist and saying Scientology is a
CULT, which really pisses them off?

Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in
news:SOgnj.957$5V5.516@fe119.usenetserver.com:

> Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they
> just slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an
> "N801"? Even if phone use required a wired or bluetooth headset, it
> would complete the unit's data connectivity options list, and they
> could market it against the iPhone and HTC Advantage (HTC's large
> form-factor hi-res Windows Mobile Tablet phone.)
>
>


Because the carriers wouldn't sell it unless they could prevent it from
working and hobble it all up...same as iPhones, smartphones, dumbphones and
everything else they sell....Nokia wouldn't stand for it under this
business model that was the best selling Amazon computer over Christmas
2007.

At 28 Jan 2008 17:06:37 +0000 larry wrote:

> Is this like walking up to a Scientologist and saying Scientology is a
> CULT, which really pisses them off?


Yeah but like the old joke a sks:

Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?

A: About a hundred years...

At 28 Jan 2008 17:09:07 +0000 larry wrote:

> > Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they
> > just slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an
> > "N801"? Even if phone use required a wired or bluetooth headset, it
> > would complete the unit's data connectivity options list, and they
> > could market it against the iPhone and HTC Advantage (HTC's large
> > form-factor hi-res Windows Mobile Tablet phone.)
>
>
> Because the carriers wouldn't sell it unless they could prevent it from
> working and hobble it all up...same as iPhones, smartphones, dumbphones
> and everything else they sell....

To paraphrase the immortal Bard, "there is more in the cellular world,
Larry, than exists in your philosophy..."

You're letting your USA/CDMA preconceptions cloud your thinking again. If
they sold it "unlocked" any GSM customer could use it on any GSM network
worldwide. Outside of the US, it's not uncommon to buy unlocked phones.
The N95, Nokia's flagship phone of 2007, sold something like 200,000 units
before ANY carrier offered it. Not bad for a $600 (US) phone. The N800 is
a niche product anyway; selling a cellular version might widen the niche.
Look at Windows-based table PCs- they often are sold in both cellular-
enabled and non-cellular versions.

Selling a GSM-enhanced N800/810 is little different than offering a WiMax-
enhanced one, (except that more people could use a GSM version currently.)


> Nokia wouldn't stand for it under this
> business model that was the best selling Amazon computer over Christmas
> 2007.


The N800 was the best selling computer on Amazon for the same reason the MS
Zune was the best selling MP3 player- it was sold at a loss to clear
inventory for new models.

The N8xx series is probably not a wild success- most likely it's allowed to
stick around as long as it doesn't lose money in hopes that if the portable
web-tablet platform ever takes off, Nokia will be in good position to
exploit it.

Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:jJonj.2065$Zf6.57
@fe099.usenetserver.com:

> Yeah but like the old joke a sks:
>
> Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?
>
> A: About a hundred years...
>

Hmm...I was gonna guess "Politics"....

Great anti-Scientology videos on youtube they haven't been able to squash.

Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in
news:kJonj.2066$Zf6.1405@fe099.usenetserver.com:

> The N8xx series is probably not a wild success- most likely it's
> allowed to stick around as long as it doesn't lose money in hopes that
> if the portable web-tablet platform ever takes off, Nokia will be in
> good position to exploit it.
>

Well, if it were a SELLphone, I would have never even considered buying it
at any price....

At 28 Jan 2008 18:32:19 +0000 larry wrote:

> Well, if it were a SELLphone, I would have never even considered
> buying it at any price....

Well, I would've- so Nokia'd broken even on us!

Again, you shouldn't paint Nokia and GSM with the same brush you paint
Verizon and Alltel with. Many high-end Nokia phones are not "hobbled" in
any way, and even run real VoIP clients built-in to their OS that work over
WiFi or 3G. Are those "SELLphones" too?

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.]
On 2008-01-28, larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
> LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
> nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:
>
>> http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/
>
> Unlimited Managed Systems edition: $499/administrator (MB423Z/A)

VNC might be a better bet.


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com
Geek-for-hire. Details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevesobol

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Todd Allcock posted:
>> Why run 2 mailboxes and try to figure out where that email went,
> That's why the Good Lord gaves us IMAP. You can run 50 e-mail clients on
> 50 different devices and they all have up to date identical inboxes, sent
> items and saved folders, etc.

I may be many things, but I don't aspire to deityhood (and it was I who
gave the world IMAP...).

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Todd Allcock posted:
> Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they just
> slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an "N801"?

They wouldn't do it with the N800. It's not the right form factor for a
phone. They might do something like that with N810.

But I don't pretend to understand Nokia's marketing strategy for this
series. My impression is that N8x0 is a skunkworks effort that the rest
of Nokia doesn't really know what to do about.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.]
On 2008-01-29, Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> I may be many things, but I don't aspire to deityhood (and it was I who
> gave the world IMAP...).

OT: I'd consider you a deity if you could convince a bunch of big email client
vendors like M$ to fix their IMAP client implementations.


> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/mrc
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.


--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com
Geek-for-hire. Details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevesobol

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, LoSebal posted:
>>> Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
>>> MAC.
>> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.
> you might want to let apple know http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

I did say AFAIK.

I glanced through the specifications, and it seems to imply that this
expensive ($499) product is limited to Mac OS and VNC, and is not "remote
desktop" in the context that he asked.

For Windows remote desktop (which is part of every XP and Vista machine),
there are free clients for Windows, Mac OS, and N800.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, larry posted:
> Not sure why you're using a browser to play music.

I'm referring to the default media player.

> Here, it's a tossup
> between Canola 2, which was just upgraded and is VERY iPhoney acting,
> and Kagu, which supports A2DP to my stereo BT headphones and scrobbling.

Neither Canola nor Kagu handle files with CJK characters.

> mplayer, the smallest and lightest weight interface plays the most movie
> formats, of all of them.

Yes, but it staggers too often. The easiest workaround is to use the free
converter on Windows to convert it to AVI format first.

> ATSC digital television is NEVER going to work in a moving vehicle.

The same problem exists for other digital TV systems as well. In Japan,
1seg (which unlike ATSC is specially designed for mobile use) works fine
when still, but as soon as the vehicle goes more than about 15 km/h it
starts dropping out (this is first-hand experience!).

So, don't believe the crackpots who claim that it's all because of ATSC
and other digital TV systems work fine. It's a general problem with
digital reception, but it will be ironed out in time. The newer 1seg
tuners work MUCH better than the older ones.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

At 28 Jan 2008 16:28:46 -0800 Mark Crispin wrote:

> I may be many things, but I don't aspire to deityhood (and it was I
> who gave the world IMAP...).


Well, maybe not deity status, but two more miracles like IMAP should at
least quaify you for sainthood... ;-)

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801281638540.29364@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> Yes, but it staggers too often. The easiest workaround is to use the
> free converter on Windows to convert it to AVI format first.
>
>

The staggering stops if you disconnect the BT or wifi connection so the
email and weather applets can't call home and put the tablet in a WAIT
state so long. I always shut down the internet connection when playing a
full avi movie from the 8GB SDHC cards.

I sure wish someone would write an AUDIO COMPANDER for it. I loaded a
movie I wanted to watch while eating alone at a restaurant, but the audio
on the movie was TOO LOW to hear and I forgot the headphones. There's just
NO OVERHEAD in the audio gain of phones and tablets. What use is a volume
control you must run wide open all the time to hear what you're playing. I
want a volume control you have to run at 25% to keep from rattling the
speakers....that leaves me room to turn it up on low audio recordings.

My Moto Z6m is the same way....dammit.

"larry" <noone@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A33DBFE28B0Fnoonehomecom@208.49.80.253...
> Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
> news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801281638540.29364@pangtzu.p anda.com:
>
>> Yes, but it staggers too often. The easiest workaround is to use the
>> free converter on Windows to convert it to AVI format first.
>>
>>
>
> The staggering stops if you disconnect the BT or wifi connection so the
> email and weather applets can't call home and put the tablet in a WAIT
> state so long. I always shut down the internet connection when playing a
> full avi movie from the 8GB SDHC cards.
>
> I sure wish someone would write an AUDIO COMPANDER for it. I loaded a
> movie I wanted to watch while eating alone at a restaurant, but the audio
> on the movie was TOO LOW to hear and I forgot the headphones. There's
> just
> NO OVERHEAD in the audio gain of phones and tablets. What use is a volume
> control you must run wide open all the time to hear what you're playing.
> I
> want a volume control you have to run at 25% to keep from rattling the
> speakers....that leaves me room to turn it up on low audio recordings.
>
> My Moto Z6m is the same way....dammit.
>

The iPhone is the same way. Cheap speakers built into the thing.

A friend returned his after less then a week. Battery life was the main
reason.

He fully charged it. Put it into standby for calls. Went to sleep.
Made a phone call which was 5 mins, Sent two SMS, Did a demo on it to his
friend for approx 20 mins. Made another phone call for 5 mins and the
battery loss more then 50% in a time of 14hours total. No wi-fi or
Bluetooth used. on the demo he did a utube video and showed him the maps and
the a few web sites.

What a shame. He liked it a lot, but can't be tied to a power cord after
that little bit of playing with it. I checked the settings and the screen
was only at 50% everything else was off.

I don't ever see this Improving. They can't install a larger battery. The
only way is to have a one that can be changed out by the user. But apple
can't or won't. They say it would add another 25% to the size of the thing.
And there not going to give up that cash cow.

"Kevin Weaver" <kevinkeithweaver@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:Aixnj.1296$xq2.978@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net :

> I don't ever see this Improving. They can't install a larger battery.
> The only way is to have a one that can be changed out by the user. But
> apple can't or won't. They say it would add another 25% to the size of
> the thing. And there not going to give up that cash cow.
>

You make a good point. Not having a swappable battery pack is
inexcuseable at this price level. The N800 takes a Nokia BP-5L 1300 maH
Li-Ion they use in the phones that's readily available. I bought a used
pullout from a recycler for $16 and shipping. It works as good as the
main battery. I just wanted a spare in case this one died. With the
display on full bright, BT to the keyboard and GPS and the wifi to the
net, it will run about 4.5 hours. Turn the display down to half
brightness and that extends the runtime to 7 hours. Standby is measured
in days. I never shut it off, just plug it in at night and it charges
in about 1.5 hours ready for more.

I think my N800 would run longer if I didn't have two 8GB SDHC memory
cards installed. If I pull out the "external" card, the runtime it
reports goes up almost 2 more hours. I'm using Transcend 8GB cards (2
so double the load currents). Model is TS8GSDHC6. Not the fastest
speed card, but they just make the load worse. This is copied from the
data sheet:

¡E Current Consumption
The current consumption is measured by averaging over 1 second.
¡E Before first command: Maximum 15 mA
¡E During initialization: Maximum 100 mA
¡E Operation in Default Mode: Maximum 100 mA
¡E Operation in High Speed Mode: Maximum 200 mA
¡E Operation with other functions: Maximum 500 mA.

Times 2 cards and this is a MAJOR part of the load current on the
1300maH battery pack! I bet the 8GB iPHone runs considerably longer
than the 16GB. Mine does if I unplug a card. If runtime is more
important, less memory helps a lot! Two cards doing "other functions",
probably formatting fast, would draw ONE AMP plus what the tablet was
using....not good. This is average currents....continuously as these
cards run all the time. It's an issue with large memory cards on small
phone batteries.

But, of course, I gotta have it all...(c;

32GB SDHC cards are coming out.....soon.....

"larry" <noone@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A34A26E83D5noonehomecom@208.49.80.253...
> "Kevin Weaver" <kevinkeithweaver@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:Aixnj.1296$xq2.978@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net :
>
>> I don't ever see this Improving. They can't install a larger battery.
>> The only way is to have a one that can be changed out by the user. But
>> apple can't or won't. They say it would add another 25% to the size of
>> the thing. And there not going to give up that cash cow.
>>
>
> You make a good point. Not having a swappable battery pack is
> inexcuseable at this price level. The N800 takes a Nokia BP-5L 1300 maH
> Li-Ion they use in the phones that's readily available. I bought a used
> pullout from a recycler for $16 and shipping. It works as good as the
> main battery. I just wanted a spare in case this one died. With the
> display on full bright, BT to the keyboard and GPS and the wifi to the
> net, it will run about 4.5 hours. Turn the display down to half
> brightness and that extends the runtime to 7 hours. Standby is measured
> in days. I never shut it off, just plug it in at night and it charges
> in about 1.5 hours ready for more.
>
> I think my N800 would run longer if I didn't have two 8GB SDHC memory
> cards installed. If I pull out the "external" card, the runtime it
> reports goes up almost 2 more hours. I'm using Transcend 8GB cards (2
> so double the load currents). Model is TS8GSDHC6. Not the fastest
> speed card, but they just make the load worse. This is copied from the
> data sheet:
>
> ¡E Current Consumption
> The current consumption is measured by averaging over 1 second.
> ¡E Before first command: Maximum 15 mA
> ¡E During initialization: Maximum 100 mA
> ¡E Operation in Default Mode: Maximum 100 mA
> ¡E Operation in High Speed Mode: Maximum 200 mA
> ¡E Operation with other functions: Maximum 500 mA.
>
> Times 2 cards and this is a MAJOR part of the load current on the
> 1300maH battery pac