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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 03:01 AM
P.Schuman
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Posts: n/a
Default simple GPS lat/lon display?

If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
to be used later by standard GPS units.
--
----------------------------------
"If everything seems to be going well,
you have obviously overlooked something." - Steven Wright



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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 03:19 AM
Larry
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

"P.Schuman" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in news:AGCIj.23247
$0o7.3203@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net:

> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> to be used later by standard GPS units.


SURELY YOU JEST!!

SELLphone companies letting you see data from what you bought WITHOUT
PAYING SELLPHONE COMPANIES?!!

BITE YOUR TONGUE.....and open your wallet!

(in my best British accent) NEVAH!........(c;


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 01:57 AM
D
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
<pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:

>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units.


GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:47 AM
The Bob
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

D <noemail@respondhere.com> amazed us all with the following in
news:e9e8v39asf0urbjaphv3tr98lb12b56on0@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
> <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>
>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>to be used later by standard GPS units.

>
> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
>


Actually, some phones do have GPS and do not rely on triangulation.

And your post highlights something that I find interesting. GPS is the
acronym for "Global Positioning Satellite." Therefore, in order to offer
GPS as a service, a unit would need to communicate with satellites.
Anything else is simply a locator service, and is advertised as such.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 11:19 AM
George
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

D wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
> <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>
>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>> to be used later by standard GPS units.

>
> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....


Actually some do use that as part of the solution.

The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
they use.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
<pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in
<AGCIj.23247$0o7.3203@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net >:

>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units.


What phone? What carrier?
--
Best regards, FAQ FOR AT&T MOBILITY (CINGULAR WIRELESS):
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/AT&T_Mobility_FAQ>

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 04:12 AM
Jack Hamilton
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>D wrote:
>> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>> <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>>> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>> to be used later by standard GPS units.

>>
>> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
>> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

>
>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
>
>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>they use.


And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Roger 2008
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"P.Schuman" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in message
news:AGCIj.23247$0o7.3203@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> to be used later by standard GPS units.
> --
> ----------------------------------
> "If everything seems to be going well,
> you have obviously overlooked something." - Steven Wright


Crossposting left in.

If you have a WM6 PPC/phone with a built in GPS like the Sprint Mogul has
then you mght find something with a "simple GPS lat/long display" here:
http://pocketpcfreewares.com/en/inde...cat=30&sortby=



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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:16 AM
News
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?



Jack Hamilton wrote:

> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>D wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
>>>
>>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
>>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

>>
>>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
>>
>>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
>>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>>they use.

>
>
> And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
> Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
> lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?



The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:02 PM
George
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Jack Hamilton wrote:
> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> D wrote:
>>> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>>> <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>>>> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>>> to be used later by standard GPS units.
>>> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
>>> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

>> Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
>>
>> The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
>> cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>> they use.

>
> And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
> Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
> lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?


Its way to vague of a question since there are multiple schemes and
multiple devices with different feature sets.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:55 PM
News
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?



Roger 2008 wrote:
> "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> news:y4GdnVf5xo6Yk2vanZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>
>>Jack Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>>>>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application

>
> ?
>
>>>>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>>>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
>>>>>
>>>>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
>>>>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
>>>>
>>>>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
>>>>
>>>>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
>>>>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>>>>they use.
>>>
>>>
>>>And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
>>>Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
>>>lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?

>>
>>
>>The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
>>Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.

>
>
>
> I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
> protocol.



But they're not all cell phones, are they?

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Roger 2008
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:y4GdnVf5xo6Yk2vanZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>
> Jack Hamilton wrote:
>
> > George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>D wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
> >>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application

?
> >>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> >>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
> >>>
> >>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
> >>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
> >>
> >>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
> >>
> >>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
> >>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
> >>they use.

> >
> >
> > And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
> > Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
> > lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?

>
>
> The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
> Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.



I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
protocol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMEA_0183

Even the Garmin Mobile 10, a BT GPS uses "NMEA 0183."

More info on the "Protocol" used by the "Garmin Mobile 10":
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/store/as...ile10_0706.pdf

But the Garmin Mobile 10 will change it's protocol when used with Garmin
Mobile XT software and it takes a power cycle to return it to using "NMEA
0183." BTW I learned that from a tech at Garmin.

That means that other programs that expect "NMEA 0183" like "Google Maps for
Mobile" will not work with the "Garmin Mobile 10" after using it with the
"Garmin Mobile XT" software until you cycle power on the device.



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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 02:40 PM
News
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?



Roger 2008 wrote:
> "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> news:rq-dnaFKsefbuGvanZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>
>>Roger 2008 wrote:
>>
>>>"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
>>>news:y4GdnVf5xo6Yk2vanZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@speakeasy .net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jack Hamilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>>>>>>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map

>
> application
>
>>>?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>>>>>>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather

>
> they
>
>>>>>>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
>>>>>>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>>>>>>they use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
>>>>>Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
>>>>>lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
>>>>Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
>>>protocol.

>>
>>
>>But they're not all cell phones, are they?

>
>
>
> If you know of a "cell phone" that takes "map applications" like the
> original poster was asking about and does *not* use "NMEA 0183" protocol
> then let me know about it.
>
> Until then I will repeat myself as having posted: "I believe that pretty
> much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183" protocol.
>
> TNX
>
>



Sure, repeat at will. Regardless of context.

The question, cross-posted to numerous cell phone provider newsgroups,
about E911 a cell phone location matter, was:

"Does GPS return lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?"

The reply was yes, GPS does return GLL. Further, that on the hw-series
iPaq PocketPC GSM phones, it will do so, even without a SIM installed.

"TNX", yourself. Check that DST problem, too.

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 03:26 PM
Roger 2008
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:rq-dnaFKsefbuGvanZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>
> Roger 2008 wrote:
> > "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> > news:y4GdnVf5xo6Yk2vanZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> >
> >>
> >>Jack Hamilton wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>D wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
> >>>>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map

application
> >
> > ?
> >
> >>>>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> >>>>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather

they
> >>>>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
> >>>>
> >>>>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
> >>>>
> >>>>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
> >>>>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
> >>>>they use.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
> >>>Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
> >>>lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?
> >>
> >>
> >>The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
> >>Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.

> >
> >
> >
> > I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
> > protocol.

>
>
> But they're not all cell phones, are they?



If you know of a "cell phone" that takes "map applications" like the
original poster was asking about and does *not* use "NMEA 0183" protocol
then let me know about it.

Until then I will repeat myself as having posted: "I believe that pretty
much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183" protocol.

TNX



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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 04:32 PM
Roger 2008
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:kNidnciiG_J1oGvanZ2dnUVZ_tajnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>
> Roger 2008 wrote:
> > "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> > news:rq-dnaFKsefbuGvanZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >
> >>
> >>Roger 2008 wrote:
> >>
> >>>"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> >>>news:y4GdnVf5xo6Yk2vanZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@speakeasy .net...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Jack Hamilton wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>D wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:01:52 GMT, "P.Schuman"
> >>>>>>><pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map

> >
> > application
> >
> >>>?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> >>>>>>>>to be used later by standard GPS units.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather

> >
> > they
> >
> >>>>>>>triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Actually some do use that as part of the solution.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
> >>>>>>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what

phone
> >>>>>>they use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any

carrier.
> >>>>>Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program. Does GPS return
> >>>>>lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
> >>>>Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of

carrier.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
> >>>protocol.
> >>
> >>
> >>But they're not all cell phones, are they?

> >
> >
> >
> > If you know of a "cell phone" that takes "map applications" like the
> > original poster was asking about and does *not* use "NMEA 0183" protocol
> > then let me know about it.
> >
> > Until then I will repeat myself as having posted: "I believe that pretty
> > much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183" protocol.
> >
> > TNX
> >
> >

>
>
> Sure, repeat at will. Regardless of context.
>
> The question, cross-posted to numerous cell phone provider newsgroups,
> about E911 a cell phone location matter, was:
>
> "Does GPS return lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?"


Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
asked:
"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

The original poster also stated:
"I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
to be used later by standard GPS units."

It sounded like he was interested in "geocaching." That is basically just a
way to say where something is via long/lat and there are all sorts of sites
about "geocaching" on the internet.

FYI I'm not really interested in taking up a debate about secondary
questions on this thread that doesn't answer the original poster since I too
am looking for the same thing the original poster is.

TNX



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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 06:58 PM
Gordon Burditt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>asked:
>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"


For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
and that may cost money.

>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.


Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.

On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).

The standard communication protocol for GPS information is NMEA
0183. It specifies a record format, which might not be used in,
say, a Java application running ON the phone (there is more likely
to be a Java call like GetMyGPSCoords() which returns lat/long,
altitude, and time, and maybe speed and compass heading and some
indication whether it's a good fix. If, internally, there is a GPS
chip delivering a NMEA 0183 data stream, it may be available in a
friendlier format), and the data contained in individual fields,
which among other things includes lat/long in degrees, minutes, and
fractions of minutes.

"Conversion" to lat/long is unlikely to be much of an issue, since
that's how it's delivered, unless you like your lat/long as degrees
and fractions of degrees, or degrees, minutes, seconds, and fractions
of seconds, and in this case, it's fairly simple and straightforward
math.

>The original poster also stated:
>"I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units."
>
>It sounded like he was interested in "geocaching." That is basically just a
>way to say where something is via long/lat and there are all sorts of sites
>about "geocaching" on the internet.


It can also be useful for letting a tow truck find you when your
car is broken down at night along a highway with few visible
landmarks, or trying to get the whole family back together at an
amusement park. But yes, I'll agree with an interpretation that
the OP was interested in geocaching.

>FYI I'm not really interested in taking up a debate about secondary
>questions on this thread that doesn't answer the original poster since I too
>am looking for the same thing the original poster is.



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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 07:24 PM
Richard B. Gilbert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Gordon Burditt wrote:
>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>asked:
>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

>
>
> For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
> actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
> are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
> Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
> and that may cost money.
>
>
>>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

>
>
> Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
> built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
> few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
> of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
> car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
> update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
> coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
> satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
> for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
> user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.
>
> On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
> the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
> for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).
>


My Verizon Wireless RAZR V3m claims GPS capability. I don't think you
get displays of satellite positions or latitude and longitude but you
can get software for it that will prompt to "turn left at the next
intersection". Like everything else, I think the software is an extra
cost item.

The RAZR V3m allows you to install a "Micro SD Trans Flash" memory card
which you can use to store photographs, audio recordings, etc, etc. You
can't, AFAIK, store them there directly but you can move then to the
Trans Flash card. I have a 1GB card in my phone right now. I think I
paid something like $15 US for it. The other nice thing is that you can
get a USB "reader" for these cards which allows you to remove the card
from your camera, plug it into the adapter, the adapter into your
computer and you can copy pictures or audio recordings into your
computer. If you are so inclined you could probably copy music from
your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
and use it to play the music.


Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 07:27 PM
Dutch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.ce llular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Gordon Burditt say:

>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>asked:
>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

>
> For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
> actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
> are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
> Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
> and that may cost money.
>
>>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

>
> Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
> built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
> few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
> of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
> car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
> update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
> coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
> satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
> for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
> user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.
>
> On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
> the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
> for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).

[...]

My Sprint RAZR V3m does have the full GPS via satellite capability that
the earlier V3 models were lacking. It works perfectly with the free
"Mobile GMaps" utility...

--
Dutch

Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 07:36 PM
Dutch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.ce llular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:

> Gordon Burditt wrote:
>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>asked:
>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

>>
>> For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>> actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>> are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>> Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>> and that may cost money.
>>
>>>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>>>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

>>
>> Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
>> built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
>> few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
>> of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
>> car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
>> update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
>> coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
>> satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
>> for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
>> user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.
>>
>> On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
>> the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
>> for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).
>>

>
> My Verizon Wireless RAZR V3m claims GPS capability. I don't think you
> get displays of satellite positions or latitude and longitude but you
> can get software for it that will prompt to "turn left at the next
> intersection". Like everything else, I think the software is an extra
> cost item.
>
> The RAZR V3m allows you to install a "Micro SD Trans Flash" memory card
> which you can use to store photographs, audio recordings, etc, etc. You
> can't, AFAIK, store them there directly but you can move then to the
> Trans Flash card. I have a 1GB card in my phone right now. I think I
> paid something like $15 US for it. The other nice thing is that you can
> get a USB "reader" for these cards which allows you to remove the card
> from your camera, plug it into the adapter, the adapter into your
> computer and you can copy pictures or audio recordings into your
> computer. If you are so inclined you could probably copy music from
> your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
> and use it to play the music.


I regularly move photos, mp3's, etc, back and forth to my V3m's flash
card without removing it. Depending on which computer I'm using, I do it
with either BlueTooth or a USB cable. The free "BitPIM" utility is also
handy for working with files for the phone...

--
Dutch

Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 09:57 PM
Richard B. Gilbert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Dutch wrote:
> While dumping the
> alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.ce llular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
> bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:
>
>
>>Gordon Burditt wrote:
>>
>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>>asked:
>>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"
>>>
>>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>and that may cost money.
>>>
>>>
>>>>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>>>>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.
>>>
>>>Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
>>>built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
>>>few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
>>>of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
>>>car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
>>>update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
>>>coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
>>>satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
>>>for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
>>>user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.
>>>
>>>On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
>>>the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
>>>for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).
>>>

>>
>>My Verizon Wireless RAZR V3m claims GPS capability. I don't think you
>>get displays of satellite positions or latitude and longitude but you
>>can get software for it that will prompt to "turn left at the next
>>intersection". Like everything else, I think the software is an extra
>>cost item.
>>
>>The RAZR V3m allows you to install a "Micro SD Trans Flash" memory card
>>which you can use to store photographs, audio recordings, etc, etc. You
>>can't, AFAIK, store them there directly but you can move then to the
>>Trans Flash card. I have a 1GB card in my phone right now. I think I
>>paid something like $15 US for it. The other nice thing is that you can
>>get a USB "reader" for these cards which allows you to remove the card
>>from your camera, plug it into the adapter, the adapter into your
>>computer and you can copy pictures or audio recordings into your
>>computer. If you are so inclined you could probably copy music from
>>your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
>>and use it to play the music.

>
>
> I regularly move photos, mp3's, etc, back and forth to my V3m's flash
> card without removing it. Depending on which computer I'm using, I do it
> with either BlueTooth or a USB cable. The free "BitPIM" utility is also
> handy for working with files for the phone...
>


Do you have a "Verizon Wireless" phone? The RAZR V3, as manufactured,
has the capability but Verizon Wireless disables it. You can reenable
it at the cost of voiding your warranty!

I bought the phone in order to be able to call for help if I happened to
need the police, fire department, an ambulance, a tow truck, etc. Once
I got my contact list into the phone using Motorola Phone Tools, I was
pretty much done. The camera, ability to play music, games, video are
of little or no interest. I took one "test" picture, managed to
transfer it to my computer via the trans flash card, and then deleted
the file.


Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:39 PM
Dutch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.ce llular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:

> Dutch wrote:
>> While dumping the
>> alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.ce llular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
>> bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:
>>

[...]
>>>>Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
>>>>built in. I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
>>>>few years ago: it never managed to talk to the satellites because
>>>>of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
>>>>car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
>>>>update for several days. That phone permitted me to display the
>>>>coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
>>>>satellites were visible. This seems to be what the OP is looking
>>>>for. I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
>>>>user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.
>>>>
>>>>On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
>>>>the feature is available. This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
>>>>for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).
>>>>
>>>
>>>My Verizon Wireless RAZR V3m claims GPS capability. I don't think you
>>>get displays of satellite positions or latitude and longitude but you
>>>can get software for it that will prompt to "turn left at the next
>>>intersection". Like everything else, I think the software is an extra
>>>cost item.
>>>
>>>The RAZR V3m allows you to install a "Micro SD Trans Flash" memory card
>>>which you can use to store photographs, audio recordings, etc, etc. You
>>>can't, AFAIK, store them there directly but you can move then to the
>>>Trans Flash card. I have a 1GB card in my phone right now. I think I
>>>paid something like $15 US for it. The other nice thing is that you can
>>>get a USB "reader" for these cards which allows you to remove the card
>>>from your camera, plug it into the adapter, the adapter into your
>>>computer and you can copy pictures or audio recordings into your
>>>computer. If you are so inclined you could probably copy music from
>>>your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
>>>and use it to play the music.

>>
>> I regularly move photos, mp3's, etc, back and forth to my V3m's flash
>> card without removing it. Depending on which computer I'm using, I do it
>> with either BlueTooth or a USB cable. The free "BitPIM" utility is also
>> handy for working with files for the phone...

>
> Do you have a "Verizon Wireless" phone? The RAZR V3, as manufactured,
> has the capability but Verizon Wireless disables it. You can reenable
> it at the cost of voiding your warranty!
>
> I bought the phone in order to be able to call for help if I happened to
> need the police, fire department, an ambulance, a tow truck, etc. Once
> I got my contact list into the phone using Motorola Phone Tools, I was
> pretty much done. The camera, ability to play music, games, video are
> of little or no interest. I took one "test" picture, managed to
> transfer it to my computer via the trans flash card, and then deleted
> the file.


Nope, I have Sprint's version of the V3m. Sorry about that, I forgot
this was cross-posting to multiple groups.

--
Dutch

Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:13 AM
Roger 2008
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
> >Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
> >asked:
> >"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

>
> For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
> actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
> are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
> Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
> and that may cost money.


Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.

BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.

I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."



Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 01:12 AM
Richard B. Gilbert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Roger 2008 wrote:
> "Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
> news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>
>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>asked:
>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

>>
>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>and that may cost money.

>
>
> Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
> when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>
> BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
> even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>
> I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
> street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
> approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>
>


GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.

The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
lowly civilians can't get it.

As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
direction your signal is coming from.



Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 02:37 AM
D
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:12:28 -0400, "Richard B. Gilbert"
<rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:

>Roger 2008 wrote:
>> "Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
>> news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>>
>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>>asked:
>>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"
>>>
>>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>and that may cost money.

>>
>>
>> Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
>> when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>>
>> BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
>> even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>>
>> I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
>> street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
>> approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>>
>>

>
>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
>something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>
>The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
>available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
>lowly civilians can't get it.
>
>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>direction your signal is coming from.


Towers cannot tell what direction the signal is coming from, but can
tell from relative power how far away it is, and form a circle based
on that reading. For sake of argument, say you are 3 miles from
tower one, and 5 miles from tower two. there are only two places you
can be 3 milies and 5 miles from the towers. Add a third tower, and
you only have one place you can be. That is how triangulation (hence
the tri - three) works.


Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 02:50 AM
Gordon Burditt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
>something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.


There's also something called Differential GPS, which uses a transmitter
on the ground to broadcast corrections. That supposedly improves
the reading, if and where a DGPS transmitter is available.

>The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
>available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
>lowly civilians can't get it.


I thought this involved mostly the same signals, except that there
are deliberately introduced small errors in the (civilian) signal,
and the military can use a special encrypted transmission that
identifies the errors (so they can be corrected for).

It is also my understanding that in broad areas (e.g. the Middle
East) the errors (Selective Availability, or SA) can be turned on
or shut off by the military. There was a shutoff around May 1,
2000 but I don't know whether it has been turned on since then.

I believe it's also possible to get military-precision positioning
by doing long-term averaging of position readings from a fixed
point. The military doesn't consider this to be much of a problem
as using GPS to guide a bomb carried by someone on foot stopping
for an hour every few meters to get a new position reading isn't
very practical.

>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>direction your signal is coming from.


But I think it does have a way of determining distance (e.g. ping
time). With 3 sufficiently separated cell towers, you can determine
a point (and get an estimate of your accuracy). Actually, 2
sufficiently separated cell towers give you two points, and if
you're tracking a moving target across several cell towers, that
might be enough.


Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 02:54 AM
Dutch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> Roger 2008 wrote:
>> "Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
>> news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>>
>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>>asked:
>>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"
>>>
>>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>and that may cost money.

>>
>> Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
>> when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>>
>> BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
>> even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>>
>> I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
>> street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
>> approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>>

>
> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
> about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
> Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
> something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
> strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
> antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>
> The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
> gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
> available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
> lowly civilians can't get it.


The US government dropped the "Selective Availability" accuracy
degrading function from the GPS signals in 2000. Standard civilian GPS
units are now accurate to within about 50 feet on average. Newer units
with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) capability, originally
developed for air navigation, are accurate to within 10 feet or better.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FGCS/info/sa...statement.html

> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
> direction your signal is coming from.


By triangulating signals from three towers, the location can be
determined fairly accurately. Obviously, there must be at least three
towers within range for it to work. Other methods use one or more towers
and time based signals to determine locations with varying degrees of
accuracy.

--
Dutch

Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 03:29 AM
Roger 2008
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?


"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:47F6D1FC.5010200@comcast.net...
> Roger 2008 wrote:
> > "Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
> > news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
> >
> >>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
> >>>asked:
> >>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application

?"
> >>
> >>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
> >>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
> >>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
> >>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
> >>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
> >>and that may cost money.

> >
> >
> > Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS

but
> > when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
> >
> > BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and

he
> > even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
> >
> > I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across

the
> > street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
> > approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
> >
> >

>
> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
> about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
> Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
> something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
> strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
> antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>
> The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
> gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
> available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
> lowly civilians can't get it.
>
> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
> direction your signal is coming from.



I was under the impression that a cell phone could tell it was in 3
different areas around a cell tower but after reading the following I am
inclined to agree with you:

"Microsoft, Sprint & Cell Tower Triangulation"

Microsoft has teamed with Sprint to roll out a new location-based Live
Search function on many of their high-end phones. Since the new service
doesn't take advantage of GPS, it opens up the use to almost any phone on
Sprint's network.

When a user logs onto to Windows Mobile Live Search to do any type of search
for businesses, or address, etc. the service takes into account the user's
location by pinging nearby cellular towers using a technology known as
"cellular tower triangulation." By determining how long it takes to ping
certain towers, the phone can know within a few meters where it is at any
time.

While triangulation has been around forever, and mainly used for E911 uses,
it's finally slowly making it's way into other useful consumer applications.
Utilizing it for mobile search was the next logical step, not only for
consumer use, but for advertising as well.

Above found at:
http://blogs.movamedia.com/tech/2008...triangulation/

-----

You know what the above means? It means if you have T-mobile or AT&T you
have to use "Google Maps for Mobile" for "Tower Triangulation" and if you
have Sprint you will have to use Microsoft "Live Search."

One more thing. The above states "but for advertising as well." ugh.

-----

My apologies to the poster that started this thread since it has ended up
discussing "Cell Tower Triangulation" but I think you might find some
freeware that does what you want and I plan to look more for something
"simple" with GPS lat/long myself.



Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Richard B. Gilbert
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

D wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:12:28 -0400, "Richard B. Gilbert"
> <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Roger 2008 wrote:
>>
>>>"Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
>>>news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>>>asked:
>>>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"
>>>>
>>>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>>and that may cost money.
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
>>>when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>>>
>>>BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
>>>even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>>>
>>>I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
>>>street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
>>>approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>>>
>>>

>>
>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
>>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
>>something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
>>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
>>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>>
>>The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>>gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
>>available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
>>lowly civilians can't get it.
>>
>>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>>direction your signal is coming from.

>
>
> Towers cannot tell what direction the signal is coming from, but can
> tell from relative power how far away it is, and form a circle based
> on that reading. For sake of argument, say you are 3 miles from
> tower one, and 5 miles from tower two. there are only two places you
> can be 3 milies and 5 miles from the towers. Add a third tower, and
> you only have one place you can be. That is how triangulation (hence
> the tri - three) works.
>


I suspect that this technique would yield an uncertainty of position
that is far greater than that inherent in GPS. For one thing, the
relative signal strength depends on more than distance!


Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:53 PM
Dutch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> D wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:12:28 -0400, "Richard B. Gilbert"
>> <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Roger 2008 wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
>>>>news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions: He
>>>>>>asked:
>>>>>>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"
>>>>>
>>>>>For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>>>actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>>>are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>>>Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>>>your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>>>and that may cost money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS but
>>>>when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>>>>
>>>>BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
>>>>even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>>>>
>>>>I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
>>>>street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
>>>>approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
>>>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
>>>something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
>>>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
>>>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>>>
>>>The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>>>gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
>>>available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
>>>lowly civilians can't get it.
>>>
>>>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>>>direction your signal is coming from.

>>
>> Towers cannot tell what direction the signal is coming from, but can
>> tell from relative power how far away it is, and form a circle based
>> on that reading. For sake of argument, say you are 3 miles from
>> tower one, and 5 miles from tower two. there are only two places you
>> can be 3 milies and 5 miles from the towers. Add a third tower, and
>> you only have one place you can be. That is how triangulation (hence
>> the tri - three) works.

>
> I suspect that this technique would yield an uncertainty of position
> that is far greater than that inherent in GPS. For one thing, the
> relative signal strength depends on more than distance!


Yes, the single tower strength method is inherently inaccurate. It is
however better than only knowing which tower a handset is using, the
least accurate, and previously the only method of locating someone
that's lost. Modern GPS/WAAS is by far the most accurate, but the other
methods do have their place as a backup when GPS is not available for
one reason or another...

--
Dutch

Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 01:23 PM
George
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: simple GPS lat/lon display?

Roger 2008 wrote:
> "D" <noemail@respondhere.com> wrote in message
> news:f9pdv358q4d767lpi21ua63eouhaap4gqa@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:12:28 -0400, "Richard B. Gilbert"
>> <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Roger 2008 wrote:
>>>> "Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.sh6xy@burditt.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:XrOdnYKg7an-52vanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@internetamerica...
>>>>
>>>>>> Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:

> He
>>>>>> asked:
>>>>>> "can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application

> ?"
>>>>> For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
>>>>> actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
>>>>> are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
>>>>> Brother, but not on your cell phone. If a map application can get
>>>>> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
>>>>> and that may cost money.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yeah, now that you mention it. My first camera phone called it GPS

> but
>>>> when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.
>>>>
>>>> BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS

> and he
>>>> even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.
>>>>
>>>> I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across

> the
>>>> street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for

> an
>>>> approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
>>>>
>>>>
>>> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>> about 300 feet or 100 meters. I once did a "site survey" using a
>>> Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver. The software I used plotted
>>> something like 10,000 position readings on the map. The result was a
>>> strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW. My
>>> antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.
>>>
>>> The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>>> gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting. This level of GPS is
>>> available only to the military and certain defense contractors. Us
>>> lowly civilians can't get it.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>>> direction your signal is coming from.

>> Towers cannot tell what direction the signal is coming from, but can
>> tell from relative power how far away it is, and form a circle based
>> on that reading. For sake of argument, say you are 3 miles from
>> tower one, and 5 miles from tower two. there are only two places you
>> can be 3 milies and 5 miles from the towers. Add a third tower, and
>> you only have one place you can be. That is how triangulation (hence
>> the tri - three) works.

>
> With no disrespect for the poster that started this thread then how does VOR
> for airplanes work from one transmitting site?
>


Not the OP but VOR is a positioning system by design. You can establish
a LOP because your VOR receiver measures the phase difference of the 0
deg reference signal and the rotating signal from the station. That
phase difference is the radial you are on and what the VOR receiver
displays. To further enhance things they often colocate DME at the VOR
site. An additional unit in the airplane sends an interrogation to the
ground station which then replies. The airborne unit uses the transit
time to deduce its distance from the station.


> More on VOR can be found at:
> http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/...v_overview.htm
>
> But the above site doesn't come right out and say if they use more than one
> transmitting tower to get VOR to work.
>
> I have been under the assumption that since most cellphone towers have three
> elements that the cellphone knew that it was 1 of 3 directions away from the
> tower but now it seems there is nothing VOR related in cell phone towers.
>
>


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