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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2007, 09:58 PM
SMS
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Default You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"

Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.

"http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 12:43 PM
karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net
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Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:28:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <4639099b$0$27204$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"
>>
>> Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.
>>
>> "http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"

>
>The exact same thing happens with my Nextel, too.



Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 01:59 PM
Jeff
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

<karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:28:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <4639099b$0$27204$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
>> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"
>>>
>>> Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.
>>>
>>> "http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"

>>
>>The exact same thing happens with my Nextel, too.

>
>
> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.


Wrong.

What a minute ...

Is this Navas using a different name?



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 03:16 PM
Klay Anderson
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Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

In article <16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08@4ax.com>,
karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.


No no no. Look, a cell phone is a two-way radio running somewhere in
the 800-1900 mHz band. This means it transmits and receives. The radio
waves emitted by a GSM handset can have a peak power of 2 watts, and a
US analog phone had a maximum transmit power of 3.6 watts. Other digital
mobile technologies, such as CDMA and TDMA, use lower output power,
typically below 1 watt.

Now, as the phone idles, the local cell tower needs to know what phones
it has in its coverage area for routing so it "polls" and the phones in
its area respond. This is the noise you "hear".

OK. Now let's look at audio. For this discussion, we'll say that "oh
my heck" you just put your phone next to an audio circuit. This circuit
could be a sound card, or a hi-fi receiver or simply the pre-amp/amp
inside powered speakers or even a radio or car stereo or iPod. Remember
that a wire is an antenna!

With just one watt of radiated RF power next to a typical stereo
receiver or its cabling (speaker cables, too!), that emitted RF will be
induced into the audio section, demodulated and amplified *a lot* to
become a very loud and possibly damaging square wave that tweeters
especially hate.

Move your cell phone away from that stuff and the problem goes away as
well.

--
Thanks!

--
Regards,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.
http://www.klay.com

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 06:38 PM
Dennis Ferguson
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Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

On 2007-05-03, Klay Anderson <klay@klay.com> wrote:
> In article <16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08@4ax.com>,
> karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
>> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.

>
> No no no. Look, a cell phone is a two-way radio running somewhere in
> the 800-1900 mHz band. This means it transmits and receives. The radio
> waves emitted by a GSM handset can have a peak power of 2 watts, and a
> US analog phone had a maximum transmit power of 3.6 watts. Other digital
> mobile technologies, such as CDMA and TDMA, use lower output power,
> typically below 1 watt.


That's not quite right. All digital phones seem to run about the
same average output power these days, about 0.2-0.3 Watts. GSM
phones may actually be on the lower end of this judging by how
long a charge in their teeny tiny batteries tends to last. The
thing about TDMA phones (i.e. TDMA, GSM and Nextel) is that they
transmit in short bursts, being quiet most of the time and then spitting
out a narrow-band signal over a short period. To have an average power
of, say, 0.25W, when you are only transmitting 1/8th of the time
the peak power needs to be a lot higher, but the average is still
the same as, say, a CDMA phone which transmits continuously when
connected.

The problem with all these TDMA phones is that the bursts themselves
tend to be transmitted at audio frequencies, i.e. a burst every
few milliseconds. It doesn't take much to demodulate this into
something you can hear, and while the remaining audio frequency
power is tiny if it gets into the front of an amplifier section
it can, as you say, be amplified a lot. It is still a fault of
the electronics that it is receiving this stuff (it is obviously
possible to design circuits resistant to this; the phones themselves
don't usually interfere with their own audio) but the nature of the
signal makes this more difficult.

The thing I wanted to point out, however, is that this isn't
limited to GSM phones. I've heard Nextel phones doing it too, and
I suspect TDMA phones probably did it as well. I think it is
inherent to the technology.

Dennis Ferguson

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 07:46 PM
Todd H.
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

Dennis Ferguson <dcferguson@pacbell.net> writes:

> The thing I wanted to point out, however, is that this isn't
> limited to GSM phones. I've heard Nextel phones doing it too, and
> I suspect TDMA phones probably did it as well. I think it is
> inherent to the technology.


FWIW, none of my Cingular TDMA phones did the gallopy thing.

Well, except for the GAIT phone I had, which was TMDA, GSM, and AMPS,
with which came a change to the GSM based network as primary.

--
Todd H.
http://toddh.net/

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 09:54 PM
SMS
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

Jeff wrote:
> <karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:28:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4639099b$0$27204$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
>>> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"
>>>>
>>>> Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.
>>>>
>>>> "http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"
>>> The exact same thing happens with my Nextel, too.

>>
>> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
>> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.

>
> Wrong.
>
> What a minute ...
>
> Is this Navas using a different name?


I don't think so. You're correct, it isn't an issue with the speakers,
but I think that a lot of people are quick to blame China for any
problem with any product!

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 12:00 AM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

On Thu, 03 May 2007 14:54:56 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote in <463a5a32$0$27240$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>Jeff wrote:
>> <karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:28:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <4639099b$0$27204$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
>>>> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"
>>>>>
>>>>> Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> "http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"
>>>> The exact same thing happens with my Nextel, too.
>>>
>>> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
>>> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.

>>
>> Wrong.


>I don't think so. You're correct, it isn't an issue with the speakers,


In fact it is an issue with speakers, which aren't sufficiently
shielded. These handsets meet FCC requirements.

>but I think that a lot of people are quick to blame China for any
>problem with any product!


Totally irrelevant.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 12:00 AM
Scott
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net wrote in news:16mj33hsi82mlmnac0q90rju1q1l76rn08
@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:28:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <4639099b$0$27204$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
>> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> See "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRG1iB8NF14"
>>>
>>> Well technically it's not a Cingular issue per se, it's a GSM issue.
>>>
>>> "http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/08/whats_the_buzz.html"

>>
>>The exact same thing happens with my Nextel, too.

>
>
> Just means your radio or PC speakers are likely junk from China
> and not adequately shielded. Not Cingular's fault at all.


Gee, Phil- more prejudicial racial profiling from you? You're an even
bigger bigot than I could have ever imagined.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 12:17 AM
Todd Allcock
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

At 03 May 2007 14:46:22 -0500 Todd H. wrote:

> FWIW, none of my Cingular TDMA phones did the gallopy thing.
>
> Well, except for the GAIT phone I had, which was TMDA, GSM, and AMPS,
> with which came a change to the GSM based network as primary.



IIRC, however, my TDMA phones made a different noise through my PC
speakers (but far less often- I wonder if the TDMA system was less
"concerned" with keeping up with who was camping on the network than GSM
is. In fact, now that I think of it, my TDMA phones didn't "chatter"
over the speakers until they received a call (ironically, therefore, my
PC would "ring" before the phone did!)


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 05:26 PM
Mike S.
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue


In article <463a6fc6$0$16267$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>At 03 May 2007 14:46:22 -0500 Todd H. wrote:
>
>> FWIW, none of my Cingular TDMA phones did the gallopy thing.
>>
>> Well, except for the GAIT phone I had, which was TMDA, GSM, and AMPS,
>> with which came a change to the GSM based network as primary.

>
>
>IIRC, however, my TDMA phones made a different noise through my PC
>speakers (but far less often- I wonder if the TDMA system was less
>"concerned" with keeping up with who was camping on the network than GSM
>is. In fact, now that I think of it, my TDMA phones didn't "chatter"
>over the speakers until they received a call (ironically, therefore, my
>PC would "ring" before the phone did!)
>
>
>--
>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>


Date: 11 Mar 94 21:34:21 EST
From: Stewart Fist <100033.2...@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: GSM and TDMA Problems

John Sims <j...@fs.com.au> asks about the problems with GSM.

They are pretty much the same as with all TDMA systems, including the
TDMA now being introduced into the USA -- and they'll be worse with
DECT and DCS1800 which are designed to be used indoors in large
offices.

You can look at these problems in a number of different ways and at a
number of different levels. The primary problem is that they were
introduced in competition to perfectly good analog cellular networks,
and they failed to provide any real customer advantages. A system
needs to be better than the one it replaces. The magical name
'digital' doesn't carry much weight with customers after a while.

Coverage area is another major problem, and here the American TDMA has
a better solution than GSM because it emphasised dual-mode handsets
with analog providing coverage where digital wasn't available. GSM
didn't do this, so in most nations with the system (except Germany)
you are limited to a very small coverage area, and a very limited
range of base-stations, often with minimal equipment, and with great
holes in the cells. Drop outs on the Sydney GSM networks seem to
range between 40% and up to 80% for a car crossing the city.

Sound quality in all digital systems seems to be consistent, but only
'acceptable'. While good static-free reception extends to the
boundaries of the cell, they do all suffer from a staccato-like effect
when driving down tree-line corridors (especially after dew or rain)
and they drop the link precipitously, without warning, at the
boundary. This is not how consumers think a phone system should
behave.

Within buildings, they have many more penetration and Rayleigh-fading
problems than analog also. Range of a GSM cell, at present is limited
to 35kms, which is too small for Australia, but this will be fixed in
1996 by slot-stealing.

GSM and TDMA base stations also need to radiate from higher points for
good coverage, but if they do that, they then interfere with other
cells. Capacity is set by the amount of general R/F interference
being introduced, and generally they seem to be only getting two to
three-times that of AMPS.

International roaming was the big story behind GSM, and it is
certainly important to 2% of European owners who daily drive across
the Continent. However AMPS is a far better system if an Australian
wants International roaming, because it is used in New Zealand,
Australia, most of Asia, and the America's. What we needed for good
international roaming was a dual-mode AMPS/TACS handset (and the
difference is really only in the R/F stage, so this would have been
easy to do).

The main problems are the R/F interference effects, and these are
common to all TDMA systems (including the new DECT and DCS-1800) and
they are cumulative -- so we see only a few signs of the problems now,
but like automobile pollution growth in cities, it will get worse as
the population of users grows. There are four main problems here:

1. General R/F pollution. Any system that switches its R/F
transmitter on and off rapidly (GSM does it 217 times a second, TDMA
does it 50 times) will scatter EMI throughout the adjacent radio
spectrum. And the sharper the edge of the switch power (on and off),
the wider the band of hash it scatters. These sets need a 3-5MHz
guard-band between them and analog AMPS channels,and they try to ramp
up the power, and still they scatter crap into nearby television
broadcast bands. We've never had anything that generates EMI like a
GSM handset before in these bands. We need large numbers of them like
we need a hole in the head.

2. Audio-Hz interference. The on-off cycle of transmission power will
be read by any analog circuit nearby (with any rectification or
asymmetrical circuits) as an intrusive audio tone of 217Hz, and the
two major harmonics above. This buzz intrudes into hearing aids at
distances up to 30 metres, and is often intolerable at 2 metres. It
also gets into cassette recorder, wireline systems, and into modems as
a carrier tone.

3. Digital byte intrusions. In digital circuits, where the track on a
circuit board is about the length of a GSM antenna, the on-off cycle
of transmission power is often being read as a data-byte. If only one
GSM handset is operating in a vicinity, it will pulse in the first (of
eight) slots in a frame, and so produce a 1000 0000 byte at 217 bytes
(1736 bits) a second. This can also be read as 1100 0000, 0000 0000
at 3.4kbit/s, or 1110 0000 etc. at 5.2kbit/s (and so on).

When two or more handsets are working in the same location, they are
all synchronised to the same base-station (same or different
channels). So amplitude effects (same slot, different channels) are
cumulative: the fact that they may be using different channels is
immaterial, so the range of interference can increase. A number of
handsets will combine to create what amounts to random number
generation (they are also frequency hopping) of power pulses in
digital control circuits nearby.

This seems to hit some electronic equipment (laserprinters, modems,
PCs, TV controllers, possibly air-bag triggers) hard, and have wierd,
and often un-reproducable effects. The randomness seems to be the
problem in detecting what caused some 'event'. It is virtually
impossible to reproduce the conditions.

This is why some people report no problems at all, others say it
knocks out their Powerbook or modem or multiplexer, occasionally, or
every time. Obviously some equipment is far more susceptible than
others -- but not just in terms of needing EMI shielding.

4. The last EMI problems is the remote possibility (and I stress
'remote possibility') that the pulsation of the microwaves can create
a different type, or order, of health problems to analog. Analog is
expected to only have a 'brain and eye-lens' heating effect (but not
everyone is convinced about this).

Digital TDMA introduces a new factor. It is known for instance, that
some enzyme reactions in chemical processes are sped up enormously
when hit by pulsating R/F, but no one seems to know why. This needs a
lot more research, but is no reason for panic. However, it can't be
dismissed, like may technophiles seem to do.

The real problem with both GSM and American TDMA is the way in which
all these problems were kept secret, and the systems were rolled out
slowly and quietly without anyone admitting problems until the press
started shouting. When they play these sorts of games, they have only
themselves to blame when the press reacts strongly and shouts 'foul'
especially when it is likely to be hearing-impaired people who suffer
in office environments.

Later, problems were reluctantly admitted, but always the admission
was associated with "Don't worry, well fix it!" which is just another
of their lies. Most of these problems are intrinsic in time-division
power pulsing.

More recently the tactic has changed once again: now they blame the
lack of shielding on hearing-aids and other electronic equipment, and
want to boost the standard of immunity, rather than reduce their own
emissions.

It's the smoke-stack blaming inefficiencies in gas-masks for the
problems. ETSI is its own worst enemy.



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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 05:37 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

On Fri, 4 May 2007 17:26:35 +0000 (UTC), retsuhcs@xinap.moc (Mike S.)
wrote in <f1fqcb$o1j$1@reader2.panix.com>:

>In article <463a6fc6$0$16267$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:


>>IIRC, however, my TDMA phones made a different noise through my PC
>>speakers (but far less often- I wonder if the TDMA system was less
>>"concerned" with keeping up with who was camping on the network than GSM
>>is. In fact, now that I think of it, my TDMA phones didn't "chatter"
>>over the speakers until they received a call (ironically, therefore, my
>>PC would "ring" before the phone did!)


> Date: 11 Mar 94 21:34:21 EST
> From: Stewart Fist <100033.2...@CompuServe.COM>
> Subject: GSM and TDMA Problems
>
> John Sims <j...@fs.com.au> asks about the problems with GSM.
>
> [SNIP]


Those negative comments are wildly exaggerated.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2007, 11:41 AM
xPosTech
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: You Tube Video on Cingular/AT&T Speaker Destruction Issue

On 5/4/2007 12:26 PM, Mike S. wrote:
<snip>
>
> Date: 11 Mar 94 21:34:21 EST
> From: Stewart Fist <100033.2...@CompuServe.COM>
> Subject: GSM and TDMA Problems
>

<snip>

1994?
--
Ted
I wasn't born in Texas but
I got back here as soon as I could
(Don't forget to take out the trash)

A metal's temper doesn't mean it is angry.

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