karlkrandall@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:38:34 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> P.Schuman wrote:
>>
>>>> Keynote is over, Apple.com has been updated:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/iphone/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It's listed as a GSM device,
>>> so probably only for Cingular for widest customer base.
>>>
>> The strangest thing is that it's not 3G. It's only EDGE.
>>
>
>
> Ummm.. It's also WiFi 802.11c and g
>
Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
be compatible with new 911 location services?
If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.sprintpcs.]
On 2007-07-18, =?windows-1252?Q?JDa=99=A9?= <JDaNospam@nospam.net> wrote:
> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
> be compatible with new 911 location services?
>
> If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
Heh Jack, I figured you wouldn't answer my question about why you continue
to post here. Coward.
GPS *or* triangulation is required, as I understand it, and Cingular may use
triangulation instead of GPS.
There is a difference between the GPS that can be used to control one of
those magic map and routing systems versus the locator technology mandated
by E911. I'm not sure about the tech details, but my Treo 700p has a little
crosshair icon on all the time and is compatible with Sprint's "family
locator" feature, yet I can't use the TeleNav feature without the purchase
of additional hardware.
> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
> be compatible with new 911 location services?
>
> If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
>
Steve Sobol wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.sprintpcs.]
> On 2007-07-18, =?windows-1252?Q?JDa=99=A9?= <JDaNospam@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
>> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
>> be compatible with new 911 location services?
>>
>> If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
>>
>
> Heh Jack, I figured you wouldn't answer my question about why you continue
> to post here. Coward.
>
> GPS *or* triangulation is required, as I understand it, and Cingular may use
> triangulation instead of GPS.
>
>
>
>
Steve, I think you have me confused with one of the following: "JD in
TX", "Jd Lyall", "JDXray"
or someone else.
> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
> be compatible with new 911 location services?
No- SOME way to locate the phone if it calls 911 is required, but it
doesn't have to have a "GPS." AT&T and other GSM carriers use a tower-
location system (a sort of advanced version of triangulation.)
This means AT&T knows where the phone is, but the phone doesn't. A few
GSM phones have actual satellite GPS modules built in (HP 6915, Nokia N95)
but the iPhone isn't one of them.
While CDMA carriers (like Sprint annd Verizon) use a GPS-based system
with a bit more accuracy, theirs is also network dependant- their phones
don't know where they are either, unless you pay to receive that
information from the carrier.
> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
> be compatible with new 911 location services?
>
> If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
"Bill Marriott" wrote:
> There is a difference between the GPS that can be used to control one of
> those magic map and routing systems versus the locator technology mandated
> by E911. I'm not sure about the tech details, but my Treo 700p has a
> little crosshair icon on all the time and is compatible with Sprint's
> "family locator" feature, yet I can't use the TeleNav feature without the
> purchase of additional hardware.
>
Yep, same with my 650. Weird that--at least in my tests--the family locator
service seems to be about as accurate as my dedicated GPS. Granted I haven't
done much testing other than while stationary, but I recently did a test
within my house. After I turned off street-lock on my GPS it showed its
location roughly on the property line with my neighbor, if not over in the
neighbor's yard (hard to tell with just a map). With family locator I could
see each of my Sprint phones and they appeared almost exactly where they
were positioned inside the house, including mine which was sitting right
next to the GPS.
Moreover, with family locator my Treo 650 doesn't seem any less accurate
than the Katanas that are also on my plan. Yet TeleNav supports the
standalone Katanas but not the Treo. Seems odd since if I had to buy a
separate GPS for my Treo I would probably buy some sort of onboard mapping
software that didn't require cell service to work.
Steve Sobol wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.sprintpcs.]
> On 2007-07-18, =?windows-1252?Q?JDa=99=A9?= <JDaNospam@nospam.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
>> Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
>> be compatible with new 911 location services?
>>
>> If its not there, how did they get around not including GPS?
>
> >
> GPS *or* triangulation is required, as I understand it, and Cingular
> may use triangulation instead of GPS.
Huh? This needs explanation. GPS works by triangulation, so I don't
understand your distinction here.
> > Triangulation
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation
>
> Actually, the method used is trilateration. Triangulation measures angles
> and trilateration measures time delay (distance).
>
> Bob F.
> > Looking through the spec's, theres no reference to GPS.
> > Isn't GPS *required* by the FCC on all new phones, so to
> > be compatible with new 911 location services?
>
> No- SOME way to locate the phone if it calls 911 is required, but it
> doesn't have to have a "GPS." AT&T and other GSM carriers use a tower-
> location system (a sort of advanced version of triangulation.)
>
> This means AT&T knows where the phone is, but the phone doesn't. A few
> GSM phones have actual satellite GPS modules built in (HP 6915, Nokia N95)
> but the iPhone isn't one of them.
>
> While CDMA carriers (like Sprint annd Verizon) use a GPS-based system
> with a bit more accuracy, theirs is also network dependant- their phones
> don't know where they are either, unless you pay to receive that
> information from the carrier.
There is an improvement on how this works but I am not sure which providers
implements it.
If you ever used a GPS (non-radio) device, you have noticed it takes several
minutes for the device to find you when first turned on. This is
problematic for a 911 solution. So in order to help this, the cellular
sight also has a GPS receiver in it and always has the preliminary data
ready when a cellphone calls in. If you turn your radio on and call
911(from a cold start), the cell sight sends the radio the preliminaries,
i,e, time, lat/lon map offset, all viewable satellite locations and other
data I can't remember. Then the cell phone can bypass this "setup and
finding" step and go right to calculating it's position step. Then it sends
it in. This cut off minutes of set up time which could be critical for a
911 call.
BTW, the GPS receivers in cell phones use for 911 purposes are cut down
versions of full receivers. They are intended to be activated for only
seconds and then go to sleep. Battery power is the issue. There may be
other cellphone GPS receivers capable of staying on for longer times but
recognize that these are more full blown GPS receivers, serve a different
market (tracking) and are not required for the 911 mandate. It will cost
you battery life when activated.
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:43:13 -0400, "Bob F." <bob@N0ZPAMfurtaw.com>
wrote in <Y8CdnSNtYoaQwgPbnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com>:
>If you ever used a GPS (non-radio) device, you have noticed it takes several
>minutes for the device to find you when first turned on. This is
>problematic for a 911 solution. So in order to help this, the cellular
>sight also has a GPS receiver in it and always has the preliminary data
>ready when a cellphone calls in. If you turn your radio on and call
>911(from a cold start), the cell sight sends the radio the preliminaries,
>i,e, time, lat/lon map offset, all viewable satellite locations and other
>data I can't remember. Then the cell phone can bypass this "setup and
>finding" step and go right to calculating it's position step. Then it sends
>it in. This cut off minutes of set up time which could be critical for a
>911 call.
Assisted GPS as used in most handsets is actually quite a bit different
in that the assistance server computes position solutions, leaving the
GPS receiver in the handset with the sole job of collecting range
measurements.
--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
"John Navas" <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:17os931tgsopdgn8vb6opf21fpfbrbfrk5@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:43:13 -0400, "Bob F." <bob@N0ZPAMfurtaw.com>
> wrote in <Y8CdnSNtYoaQwgPbnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com>:
>
>>If you ever used a GPS (non-radio) device, you have noticed it takes
>>several
>>minutes for the device to find you when first turned on. This is
>>problematic for a 911 solution. So in order to help this, the cellular
>>sight also has a GPS receiver in it and always has the preliminary data
>>ready when a cellphone calls in. If you turn your radio on and call
>>911(from a cold start), the cell sight sends the radio the preliminaries,
>>i,e, time, lat/lon map offset, all viewable satellite locations and other
>>data I can't remember. Then the cell phone can bypass this "setup and
>>finding" step and go right to calculating it's position step. Then it
>>sends
>>it in. This cut off minutes of set up time which could be critical for a
>>911 call.
>
> Assisted GPS as used in most handsets is actually quite a bit different
> in that the assistance server computes position solutions, leaving the
> GPS receiver in the handset with the sole job of collecting range
> measurements.
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
> John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
Why and how would a GPS receiver collect "range measurements". I think what
you are talking about is "location assist" where trilateration is used to
find the handheld. No GPS device required in the handheld in this case. I
believe this is the most popular implementation (cheapest).
On 2007-07-18, Bob F. <bob@N0ZPAMfurtaw.com> wrote:
> "John Navas" <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>> "Bob F." <bob@N0ZPAMfurtaw.com> wrote:
>>
>>>If you ever used a GPS (non-radio) device, you have noticed it takes
>>>several
>>>minutes for the device to find you when first turned on. This is
>>>problematic for a 911 solution. So in order to help this, the cellular
>>>sight also has a GPS receiver in it and always has the preliminary data
>>>ready when a cellphone calls in. If you turn your radio on and call
>>>911(from a cold start), the cell sight sends the radio the preliminaries,
>>>i,e, time, lat/lon map offset, all viewable satellite locations and other
>>>data I can't remember. Then the cell phone can bypass this "setup and
>>>finding" step and go right to calculating it's position step. Then it
>>>sends
>>>it in. This cut off minutes of set up time which could be critical for a
>>>911 call.
>>
>> Assisted GPS as used in most handsets is actually quite a bit different
>> in that the assistance server computes position solutions, leaving the
>> GPS receiver in the handset with the sole job of collecting range
>> measurements.
>
> Why and how would a GPS receiver collect "range measurements". I think what
> you are talking about is "location assist" where trilateration is used to
> find the handheld. No GPS device required in the handheld in this case. I
> believe this is the most popular implementation (cheapest).
What GPS receivers measure are the arrival times of signals from the
GPS satellites. The signals from the GPS satellites are DSSS, and the
arrival times are measured by observing the time offset at which the
receiver finds precise code alignment (arrival times of signals from
CDMA towers, which are also DSSS, can be measured in exactly the same
way).
A CDMA phone is closely time-synchronized to the tower it is homed to
(which in turn is closely time-synchronized to GPS time) since CDMA
requires this. When the base station wants a position fix from the
phone it tells the phone the satellite PRNG codes it should listen for
and the approximate arrival times it should expect those signals at
(since the phone is close to the tower the values observed from the
tower will be nearly the same). This eliminates the need for the phone
to do its own satellite acquisition. The phone makes precise measurements
of any of those GPS signals it can hear, along with measurements of tower
signals, and sends the arrival times of all of these back to the network.
A computer in the network uses all the GPS and tower data returned
to come up with a best estimate of the phone's position; the phone
doesn't need to be aware of any of the additional data it would need
to come up with a position fix on its own.
Note that the phone doesn't need to know anything about GPS satellite
locations, or tower locations, to do this, nor is it ever aware of
its own position. It just makes ToA measurements of the signals it is
told to look for, both GPS and tower, and sends them back; the network
does the heavy lifting. Also note that GPS and tower positioning data
aren't processed separately; if all the phone can hear is one tower and
two GPS satellites, all the arrival time data is used to compute a
positioning solution better than either tower or GPS data alone could
provide.
Tinman wrote:
> "Bill Marriott" wrote:
>
>> There is a difference between the GPS that can be used to control one of
>> those magic map and routing systems versus the locator technology mandated
>> by E911. I'm not sure about the tech details, but my Treo 700p has a
>> little crosshair icon on all the time and is compatible with Sprint's
>> "family locator" feature, yet I can't use the TeleNav feature without the
>> purchase of additional hardware.
>>
>>
>
> Yep, same with my 650. Weird that--at least in my tests--the family locator
> service seems to be about as accurate as my dedicated GPS. Granted I haven't
> done much testing other than while stationary, but I recently did a test
> within my house. After I turned off street-lock on my GPS it showed its
> location roughly on the property line with my neighbor, if not over in the
> neighbor's yard (hard to tell with just a map). With family locator I could
> see each of my Sprint phones and they appeared almost exactly where they
> were positioned inside the house, including mine which was sitting right
> next to the GPS.
>
> Moreover, with family locator my Treo 650 doesn't seem any less accurate
> than the Katanas that are also on my plan. Yet TeleNav supports the
> standalone Katanas but not the Treo. Seems odd since if I had to buy a
> separate GPS for my Treo I would probably buy some sort of onboard mapping
> software that didn't require cell service to work.
>
>
>
The GPS in my current Nextel i870, is suppose to be accurate to 5 meters,
when outside. And that checks out with what Google Earth shows as my home
location.
It takes a few minutes to read the sat info, but its kind of neat being able
to see where you are located with out having to purchase a expensive GPS
locater. And for what I use it for 5 meters is fine by me.
Re: Apple iPhone is GSM - GPS ? 
Coward.
Linear Mode
