3G frequency pairs

Most 3G/4G HSPA specs indicata data frequencies in pairs, such as
1700/2100 (T-Mo) or 1900/2100 (at&t.) What is not clear to me whether
both of those frequencies are required for data operation, or either one
freq. of a pair is sufficient as long as it matches the tower freq.
Anybody knows?

On 2011-07-11, Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Most 3G/4G HSPA specs indicata data frequencies in pairs, such as
> 1700/2100 (T-Mo) or 1900/2100 (at&t.) What is not clear to me whether
> both of those frequencies are required for data operation, or either one
> freq. of a pair is sufficient as long as it matches the tower freq.
> Anybody knows?

Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands

Each 3G band has two separate frequency ranges, one for the towers
to transmit on and one for the handsets. The band is generally
named for one of those frequency ranges (approximately); usually
for the tower frequencies, but sometimes for the handset frequencies
when the former would be confusing. For a handset to support
one of those bands it clearly needs to be able to transmit in
the appropriate band frequency range and receive the other.

Some carriers provide 3G service on more than one band. AT&T
provides service in Band II (1900) and Band V (850) (note that
1900/2100 must be a mistake since, if you look at the UL and DL
frequencies for Band I and Band II, you can see that you can't have
both those bands in the same country). If your phone only supports
one of those it may very well still work with AT&T service, but
you may have coverage problems since AT&T doesn't guarantee
support for both 850 and 1900 everywhere it has coverage. The
same issue exists with 900/2100 (i.e. Band VIII/Band I) carriers
in Europe.

If you've seen 1700/2100 somewhere related to T-Mobile USA, however,
that's a whole different thing. T-Mobile provides 3G service in
just one band, Band IV (1700), so the phone needs to support
that one band to work with T-Mobile 3G. I have also seen that
one band (1700) occasionally referred to as "1700/2100", but this
is still only one band and shouldn't be confused with Band I. As
far as I can guess, the 1700 band was the first not to be
named for the frequency the tower transmits on (that would be
2100, which would have confused it with Band I), so some people
aware of that oddity might have felt compelled to mention the
tower frequency as well when referring to Band IV. Also, the
name "1700" can ambiguously refer both to Band IV (North America)
and Band IX (Japan), so it some contexts calling the band
"1700/2100" might help disambiguate which "1700" you are
talking about. Regardless, this is only one band, Band IV,
and you need a phone which supports UMTS 1700 to use the service.

Dennis Ferguson

"Dennis Ferguson" <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:slrnj1mvao.14o.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com...

> Start here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands

Thanks. It sure helps to clear up a lot.

> Each 3G band has two separate frequency ranges, one for the towers
> to transmit on and one for the handsets. The band is generally
> named for one of those frequency ranges (approximately); usually
> for the tower frequencies, but sometimes for the handset frequencies
> when the former would be confusing. For a handset to support
> one of those bands it clearly needs to be able to transmit in
> the appropriate band frequency range and receive the other.
>
> Some carriers provide 3G service on more than one band. AT&T
> provides service in Band II (1900) and Band V (850) (note that
> 1900/2100 must be a mistake since, if you look at the UL and DL
> frequencies for Band I and Band II, you can see that you can't have
> both those bands in the same country). If your phone only supports
> one of those it may very well still work with AT&T service, but
> you may have coverage problems since AT&T doesn't guarantee
> support for both 850 and 1900 everywhere it has coverage. The
> same issue exists with 900/2100 (i.e. Band VIII/Band I) carriers
> in Europe.
>
> If you've seen 1700/2100 somewhere related to T-Mobile USA, however,
> that's a whole different thing. T-Mobile provides 3G service in
> just one band, Band IV (1700), so the phone needs to support
> that one band to work with T-Mobile 3G. I have also seen that
> one band (1700) occasionally referred to as "1700/2100", but this
> is still only one band and shouldn't be confused with Band I. As
> far as I can guess, the 1700 band was the first not to be
> named for the frequency the tower transmits on (that would be
> 2100, which would have confused it with Band I), so some people
> aware of that oddity might have felt compelled to mention the
> tower frequency as well when referring to Band IV. Also, the
> name "1700" can ambiguously refer both to Band IV (North America)
> and Band IX (Japan), so it some contexts calling the band
> "1700/2100" might help disambiguate which "1700" you are
> talking about. Regardless, this is only one band, Band IV,
> and you need a phone which supports UMTS 1700 to use the service.

I still wonder what to make from the HTC Sensation 4G band specs on
T-Mobile's web site:

<http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/cell-phone-detail.aspx?cell-phone=HTC-Sensation-4G>

It lists UMTS Band IV twice, as in:

UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (AWS);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)

Once the 1700 band is listed as AWS, then paired with 2100. How do you
intrerpret that spec?

At 11 Jul 2011 22:03:48 -0700 Cameo wrote:
> "Dennis Ferguson" <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:slrnj1mvao.14o.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com...
>
> > Start here:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands
>
> Thanks. It sure helps to clear up a lot.
>
> > Each 3G band has two separate frequency ranges, one for the towers
> > to transmit on and one for the handsets. The band is generally
> > named for one of those frequency ranges (approximately); usually
> > for the tower frequencies, but sometimes for the handset frequencies
> > when the former would be confusing. For a handset to support
> > one of those bands it clearly needs to be able to transmit in
> > the appropriate band frequency range and receive the other.
> >
> > Some carriers provide 3G service on more than one band. AT&T
> > provides service in Band II (1900) and Band V (850) (note that
> > 1900/2100 must be a mistake since, if you look at the UL and DL
> > frequencies for Band I and Band II, you can see that you can't have
> > both those bands in the same country). If your phone only supports
> > one of those it may very well still work with AT&T service, but
> > you may have coverage problems since AT&T doesn't guarantee
> > support for both 850 and 1900 everywhere it has coverage. The
> > same issue exists with 900/2100 (i.e. Band VIII/Band I) carriers
> > in Europe.
> >
> > If you've seen 1700/2100 somewhere related to T-Mobile USA, however,
> > that's a whole different thing. T-Mobile provides 3G service in
> > just one band, Band IV (1700), so the phone needs to support
> > that one band to work with T-Mobile 3G. I have also seen that
> > one band (1700) occasionally referred to as "1700/2100", but this
> > is still only one band and shouldn't be confused with Band I. As
> > far as I can guess, the 1700 band was the first not to be
> > named for the frequency the tower transmits on (that would be
> > 2100, which would have confused it with Band I), so some people
> > aware of that oddity might have felt compelled to mention the
> > tower frequency as well when referring to Band IV. Also, the
> > name "1700" can ambiguously refer both to Band IV (North America)
> > and Band IX (Japan), so it some contexts calling the band
> > "1700/2100" might help disambiguate which "1700" you are
> > talking about. Regardless, this is only one band, Band IV,
> > and you need a phone which supports UMTS 1700 to use the service.
>
> I still wonder what to make from the HTC Sensation 4G band specs on T-
Mobile's web site:
>
> <http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/...ail.aspx?cell-
phone=HTC-Sensation-4G>
>
> It lists UMTS Band IV twice, as in:
>
> UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (AWS);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)
>
> Once the 1700 band is listed as AWS, then paired with 2100. How do you
intrerpret that spec?


I interpret it as badly written/edited. Band IV goes by many names, and
they've listed about all of them!

That device is a "made for T-Mo" device. It covers the 3G frequencies
used by T-Mo Europe (Band I) and T-Mo USA (Band IV.) Most, if not all, T-
Mo-branded HTC handsets are configured that way, including my HD2 and HD7.

"Todd Allcock" <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in message
news:ivgob7$bqv$1@dont-email.me...
>> It lists UMTS Band IV twice, as in:
>>
>> UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (AWS);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)
>>
>> Once the 1700 band is listed as AWS, then paired with 2100. How do
>> you
> intrerpret that spec?
>
> I interpret it as badly written/edited. Band IV goes by many names,
> and
> they've listed about all of them!
>
> That device is a "made for T-Mo" device. It covers the 3G frequencies
> used by T-Mo Europe (Band I) and T-Mo USA (Band IV.) Most, if not
> all, T-
> Mo-branded HTC handsets are configured that way, including my HD2 and
> HD7.

Are you saying that this phone would also work on T-Mo 3G networks in
Europe?

On 2011-07-12, Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Todd Allcock" <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in message
> news:ivgob7$bqv$1@dont-email.me...
>>> It lists UMTS Band IV twice, as in:
>>>
>>> UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (AWS);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)
>>>
>>> Once the 1700 band is listed as AWS, then paired with 2100. How do
>>> you
>> intrerpret that spec?
>>
>> I interpret it as badly written/edited. Band IV goes by many names,
>> and
>> they've listed about all of them!
>>
>> That device is a "made for T-Mo" device. It covers the 3G frequencies
>> used by T-Mo Europe (Band I) and T-Mo USA (Band IV.) Most, if not
>> all, T-
>> Mo-branded HTC handsets are configured that way, including my HD2 and
>> HD7.
>
> Are you saying that this phone would also work on T-Mo 3G networks in
> Europe?

It will work on most carriers' 3G networks in Europe (and Asia),
including T-Mobile's. Outside of the Americas most 3G carriers
in most countries operate in Band I.

Dennis Ferguson

At 12 Jul 2011 11:32:21 -0700 Cameo wrote:
> "Todd Allcock" <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in message news:ivgob7
$bqv$1@dont-email.me...
> >> It lists UMTS Band IV twice, as in:
> >>
> >> UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (AWS);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)
> >>
> >> Once the 1700 band is listed as AWS, then paired with 2100. How do
you
> > intrerpret that spec?
> >
> > I interpret it as badly written/edited. Band IV goes by many names,
and
> > they've listed about all of them!
> >
> > That device is a "made for T-Mo" device. It covers the 3G frequencies
> > used by T-Mo Europe (Band I) and T-Mo USA (Band IV.) Most, if not all,
T-
> > Mo-branded HTC handsets are configured that way, including my HD2 and
HD7.
>
> Are you saying that this phone would also work on T-Mo 3G networks in
Europe?

Yes, that's what the "Band I" 2100 Mhz is.

This allows T-Mo to sell the same handset on both sides of the pond, and
presumably get better quantity pricing from OEMs like HTC.

"Dennis Ferguson" <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:slrnj1pbsb.1g9.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com...
> It will work on most carriers' 3G networks in Europe (and Asia),
> including T-Mobile's. Outside of the Americas most 3G carriers
> in most countries operate in Band I.

Well, that's great! There is no need for me to look further till I find
a handset with 900 and 1900 Mhz bands as well. However, I've noticed
that in Europe many data networks use tha HSDPA/HSUPA designation, while
here T-Mo uses the HSPA or HSPA+ names besides the UMTS. Are these all
compatible protocols on the 2100 band?

On 2011-07-12, Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Dennis Ferguson" <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnj1pbsb.1g9.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com...
>> It will work on most carriers' 3G networks in Europe (and Asia),
>> including T-Mobile's. Outside of the Americas most 3G carriers
>> in most countries operate in Band I.
>
> Well, that's great! There is no need for me to look further till I find
> a handset with 900 and 1900 Mhz bands as well. However, I've noticed
> that in Europe many data networks use tha HSDPA/HSUPA designation, while
> here T-Mo uses the HSPA or HSPA+ names besides the UMTS. Are these all
> compatible protocols on the 2100 band?

All those packet protocols are basically the same thing (or speed
grades of the same thing) and are all absolutely standard everywhere,
in every band. Your phone and the network will negotiate the highest
speed they have in common and all will be well.

To be perfectly clear, of the 5 WCDMA bands the Nokia phones
support, 850, 1700 and 1900 are generally interesting only for travel
in the Americas (with a very few exceptions, none in Europe that I
know of) while 900 and 2100 are interesting in the rest of the world.
Moreover, of the 5 bands, 900 MHz WCDMA is the very least interesting of
all since it is new, and virtually all the operators I know of that (plan
to) provide service in that band also provide service at 2100 MHz and
see 900 MHz just as a coverage thing. Unless you are planning to move
permanently to Middle-of-Nowhere in rural France you'll never miss
900 MHz WCDMA.

So, yes, if what you need is a phone which gets 3G service from
T-Mobile USA and from carriers in Europe when travelling, all you
need is Band IV and Band I.

Dennis Ferguson

"Dennis Ferguson" <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> All those packet protocols are basically the same thing (or speed
> grades of the same thing) and are all absolutely standard everywhere,
> in every band. Your phone and the network will negotiate the highest
> speed they have in common and all will be well.
>
> To be perfectly clear, of the 5 WCDMA bands the Nokia phones
> support, 850, 1700 and 1900 are generally interesting only for travel
> in the Americas (with a very few exceptions, none in Europe that I
> know of) while 900 and 2100 are interesting in the rest of the world.
> Moreover, of the 5 bands, 900 MHz WCDMA is the very least interesting
> of
> all since it is new, and virtually all the operators I know of that
> (plan
> to) provide service in that band also provide service at 2100 MHz and
> see 900 MHz just as a coverage thing. Unless you are planning to move
> permanently to Middle-of-Nowhere in rural France you'll never miss
> 900 MHz WCDMA.
>
> So, yes, if what you need is a phone which gets 3G service from
> T-Mobile USA and from carriers in Europe when travelling, all you
> need is Band IV and Band I.

Thanks, Dennis; it's reassuring. It just occurred to me that the same
phones might eventually be able to be used as LTE handsets on the 1700
band, provided the software and/or firmware was changed to process LTE?
Of course the antenna could still be an issue, right? Am I pushing it?