Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
my 3-year old desktop.
If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
(connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
switched on permanently)
--
Maurice (Retired in Surrey, UK) www.maurice99.ukfsn.org
(Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
Maurice Batey wrote:
> Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
> my 3-year old desktop.
>
> If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
alt.comp.hardware is a good choice.
> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
> switched on permanently)
I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
conflict with the first.
At any rate, it sounds like you might have a heat problem. I would
recommend:
1) Carefully clean the dust out of your system, especially from the
processor heat sink, graphics card, fans and vents.
2) Reduce your system to the simplest functional state. Disconnect
extra hard drives, pull unnecessary cards (like the network card you
mention), and disconnect all USB devices (with the exception of your
mouse and keyboard.)
3) Place the PC in an area with adequate ventilation -- don't leave it
jammed under a desk. Open up the case and train a fan, on a moderate to
strong setting, on the PC's interior.
If your system becomes stable, start adding bits back in. Make sure you
test for long enough to see if the problem has returned. This practice
may isolate a component that is causing you your problem.
>> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold
>> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
>> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the
>> BIOS
>> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use
>> broadband
>> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek
>> ethernet
>> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>> switched on permanently)
I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.
Yep this is a good place to post, I doubt if it's caused by going over
to broad band... happens when cold could suggest a power supply fault.
As a test why not run it without the Ethernet card or modem this ought
point you in the right direction, a good clue may be had by going
immediately into bios and take a note of the voltages and temperatures
for five minutes or so... they should not be lower than about 700mV
(0.7V) as stated in the bios screen, mind you you can still have
problems with the power supply even if the voltages appeared to be
alright.
All you need for bios POST (Power On Self Test) or bios boot is just
the CPU, Graphic card and RAM inserted with just these you'll be able to
boot the bios and access the set up screen... so it could be any of
these as well, sometimes re-inserting the RAM and graphic card cures
many a fault but I would be surprised if these was the problem.
I have had funny things happen when the bios back up battery starts to
get low so may be it's well to bear this in mind, the battery usually
starts going down hill after about 3 or 4 years.
NOTE
If you remove this battery for more than about 2 minutes you'll have to
re-set the bios settings, there's usually a 'quick set' button to avoid
this... better leaving this as a very last option.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:27:26 +0100, Maurice Batey
<maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote:
>Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
>my 3-year old desktop.
>
>If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
>
>(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
>power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
>password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
>(connected to router by ethernet cable).
>Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
>controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>switched on permanently)
Does this mean that the problem exhibited, changed somewhat
after swapping in a different ethernet card?
As Grinder pointed out, you either don't have it lock up
within 4 minutes or it does have problems if it's switched
on permanently, unless by switched on you mean the main AC
power to the PSU, instead of the whole system being fully
turned on.
Since the problem seems to be so repeatable, pull out the
ethernet card (while AC power is unplugged of course).
It would be good to get a concise but complete description
of all major components, including the motherboard make,
model, wattage, and it's rated current on 12V rail.
Open the case if you hadn't already and look for the
possibility of dislodged cables, cards, connectors, etc.
Check for vented capacitors.
Check the PSU voltages, with a multimeter if you have one,
otherwise at least in the bios hardware/health monitor page.
Boot, run memtest86+ for a few hours (overnight is ideal).
If there are errors, no point in looking elsewhere until
these errors are addressed (next focus on things more likely
to cause memory errors).
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
> conflict with the first.
Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.
(The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
years.)
From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
the (empty) floppy disk drive).
Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.
For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
business!)
Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.
So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
other gear powered off (including router).
It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
(apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
get out).
After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!
The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
system then runs perfectly - for days.
So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
(The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
PC details:
Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
--
Maurice
(Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
Maurice Batey wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>
>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>> conflict with the first.
>
> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.
>
> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
> years.)
>
> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>
> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.
>
> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
> business!)
>
> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.
>
> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
> other gear powered off (including router).
>
> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
>
> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
> get out).
>
> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!
>
> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>
> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>
> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>
> PC details:
>
> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>
> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>
When you say you couldn't remove the main connector - there is a
nylon latch on the body of the connector. You have to depress
the latch, so that you can pull up on the connector.
If, after depressing the latch, the connector will not move,
the two parts could be welded together. That could happen as a
result of something melting, corroding, or deforming at the
connector. If that were the case, the problem could be weak
power, due to the connector being damaged.
"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
news:VUZAi.101085$rX4.33391@pd7urf2no...
>>> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of
>>> cold
>>> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
>>> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the
>>> BIOS
>>> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use
>>> broadband
>>> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek
>>> ethernet
>>> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>>> switched on permanently)
>
> I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.
>
Have you and "Grinder" been replaced by "kony" clones?
"Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.08.29.15.17.14.78894@bcs.removethis. org.uk...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>
>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>> conflict with the first.
>
> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup
> problem.
>
> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over
> 2
> years.)
>
> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre
> when
> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to
> access
> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>
> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5
> in
> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI
> card.
>
> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day
> I
> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted.
> (Fortuitously I
> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon
> back in
> business!)
>
> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of
> overheating.
>
> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with
> all
> other gear powered off (including router).
>
> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
>
> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in
> the PC
> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could
> not
> get out).
>
> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI
> card!
>
> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting,
> the
> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>
> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>
> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>
> PC details:
>
> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>
> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>
> --
> Maurice
> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>
This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
and in your case anything that might be connected to,
wake on LAN, or such.
"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u6adnaAQLJhFNkjbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> "Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.08.29.15.17.14.78894@bcs.removethis. org.uk...
>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>>
>>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>>> conflict with the first.
>>
>> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup
>> problem.
>>
>> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over
>> 2
>> years.)
>>
>> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
>> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
>> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre
>> when
>> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to
>> access
>> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>>
>> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
>> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making
>> 5 in
>> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI
>> card.
>>
>> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd
>> day I
>> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted.
>> (Fortuitously I
>> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon
>> back in
>> business!)
>>
>> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
>> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of
>> overheating.
>>
>> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with
>> all
>> other gear powered off (including router).
>>
>> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of
>> lockup.
>>
>> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
>> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in
>> the PC
>> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply
>> could not
>> get out).
>>
>> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP,
>> Kubuntu,
>> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI
>> card!
>>
>> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on
>> rebooting, the
>> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>>
>> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>>
>> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>>
>> PC details:
>>
>> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
>> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
>> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
>> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>>
>> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>>
>> --
>> Maurice
>> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>>
>
> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
> wake on LAN, or such.
>
> Luck;
> Ken
>
P.S. Try replacing your keyboard, if you have another on
hand; especially if you are using a keyboard with a lot of
added function keys. ( I know, it sounds odd; but I have
one system that had very similar odd power up problems
and after much hair loss it seems to have been keyboard
related.)
> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
> wake on LAN, or such.
How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
"Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.08.29.18.26.25.243690@bcs.removethis .org.uk...
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:35:00 -0500, Ken Maltby wrote:
>
>> Try replacing your keyboard
>
> Even if most lockups occurred during mouse-only op's?
>
> --
> Maurice
> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>
I must have missed where you mentioned that, earlier.
It wouldn't matter anyway. There are checks and options
that involve startup that both the BIOS and the OS do
with the keyboard interface. These are mostly hardware
checks but they are controlled by both firmware (CMOS)
and software. There are similar startup related issues
for the Ethernet adapters.
"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
news:JkiBi.104337$rX4.39427@pd7urf2no...
>> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
>> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
>> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
>> wake on LAN, or such.
>
> How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
>
The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".
But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
block virus works. There is more interaction possible
than you appear to be aware of. Also; remember that
"Press F6 to load" RAID software drivers during XP
install? , there are a number of startup functions after
POST. Failure of some of them would be occurring
during the 4 min mentioned.
Oh, and a limited keyboard check is part of POST.
If the firmware inside an enhanced keyboard were to
be damaged by some driver setting, it could cause a
malfunction, perhaps one that causes locks up during
startup.
And lastly, I suggest you research the definition of the
term "Long Shot".
"Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.08.29.18.25.01.697187@bcs.removethis .org.uk...
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:24:39 -0500, Ken Maltby wrote:
>
>> startup related software/OS drivers.
>
> In the BIOS? Wouldn't know where to start looking.
>
> Problem is not operating system related, as one lockup occurred during
> entry
> of BIOS password.
>
> --
> Maurice
> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>
Well you could start with any BIOS startup options
like "Wake on LAN", perhaps other power management
settings, as well.
Placing a single or unrepeated/unrepeatable occurrence
into the differential should be as an unproved variable.
The OS can apply hardware drivers that can effect
firmware that can effect or be used by the BIOS. Not
to mention the possibility of effecting the BIOS itself.
Look, you can totally ignore my post, no skin off my
nose. I was just relating what I found to be the cause
in a particularly aggravating and counter to routine
troubleshooting experience, that involved a startup
problem. I ran through 3 MB and 3 Power Supplies
as well as 2 different Antec cases (and no case) and
only stumbled across the keyboard connection by
accident.
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:18:22 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
<kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
>news:VUZAi.101085$rX4.33391@pd7urf2no...
>>>> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of
>>>> cold
>>>> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
>>>> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the
>>>> BIOS
>>>> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use
>>>> broadband
>>>> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek
>>>> ethernet
>>>> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>>>> switched on permanently)
>>
>> I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.
>>
>
> Have you and "Grinder" been replaced by "kony" clones?
>
> Not an overheating problem.
You're welcome to find all the posts where I suggested
overheating as the most likely problem, or do you realize
you'd appear as a troll when you couldn't come up with
anything recent except for that router debate and something
directly related like a fan failing?
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:18:02 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
<kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
>news:JkiBi.104337$rX4.39427@pd7urf2no...
>>> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
>>> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
>>> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
>>> wake on LAN, or such.
>>
>> How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
>>
>
> The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
>"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
>it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".
>
> But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
>block virus works. There is more interaction possible
>than you appear to be aware of.
There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
attempts to boot from that drive. This system is showing
instability prior to that point, even locking up entering
the bios menus so Noozer is correct.
There's not any point thinking about software problems until
the hardware stability is regained.
Cold power up problems tend to be either power supply, flaky
motherboard capacitors, a bad mechanical connection or a PCB
problem such as bad solder joints or board cracks, though
the former two are a lot more common than the latter two.
"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:j9qbd3d0354a01npsscbl4af8hstl7h4au@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:18:02 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
> <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
>>news:JkiBi.104337$rX4.39427@pd7urf2no...
>>>> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
>>>> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
>>>> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
>>>> wake on LAN, or such.
>>>
>>> How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
>>>
>>
>> The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
>>"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
>>it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".
>>
>> But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
>>block virus works. There is more interaction possible
>>than you appear to be aware of.
>
> There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
> aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
> attempts to boot from that drive.
Which occurs right after the POST, well within the 4min.
mentioned.
You are aware that there are programs that even rewrite
the BIOS from XP? If interaction at the level of totally
rewriting the BIOS are possible, why do you find it so hard
to understand that some of the data that the BIOS must
use can also be changed, is it just because I'm the one
pointing it out?
But I would also direct you to any definition of the term
"Long Shot". This is based on an actual startup problem
I had with one system of mine, and it did turn out to be
caused by a keyboard driver problem. It would lock
things up so that it wouldn't even POST. Pressing the
Power Button or shorting the pins wouldn't start the sys,
even with the little green light on the MB glowing.
I have no way of knowing if this has anything to do
with the OP's problem, but it is possible. It is a long
shot worth the trouble of plugging in a different simple
keyboard. (One not designed to work with whatever
enhanced drivers there may be on the problem sys.)
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:32:29 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
<kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
>news:j9qbd3d0354a01npsscbl4af8hstl7h4au@4ax.com.. .
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:18:02 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
>> <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
>>>news:JkiBi.104337$rX4.39427@pd7urf2no...
>>>>> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
>>>>> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
>>>>> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
>>>>> wake on LAN, or such.
>>>>
>>>> How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
>>>"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
>>>it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".
>>>
>>> But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
>>>block virus works. There is more interaction possible
>>>than you appear to be aware of.
>>
>> There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
>> aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
>> attempts to boot from that drive.
>
> Which occurs right after the POST, well within the 4min.
>mentioned.
There is no software factor including boot sector viri,
which impede entering the bios menus. The machine has
already demonstrated it is a hardware failure at that point.
While it is /possible/ there is also a software failure,
untill the initial hardware failure is resolved it would be
premature to assume it.
>
> You are aware that there are programs that even rewrite
>the BIOS from XP?
Yes, they have to have some intelligence of the specific
board to work. Show us even one virus that can write to
this board.
> If interaction at the level of totally
>rewriting the BIOS are possible, why do you find it so hard
>to understand that some of the data that the BIOS must
>use can also be changed, is it just because I'm the one
>pointing it out?
What is theoretically possible, but never shown to exist
with capability to flash the OP's board, is a scenrio so
unlikely it would not be reasonable to consider unless there
was evidence suggesting it.
There are too many things to even enumerate that are
possible if we can't play odds at least a little bit. There
is no reason to think the bios has been written to, and
particularly not that it had been written to but remained
intact enough to POST the system only locking up soon
thereafter. The odds are far lower than 1 in a million.
>
> But I would also direct you to any definition of the term
>"Long Shot". This is based on an actual startup problem
>I had with one system of mine, and it did turn out to be
>caused by a keyboard driver problem. It would lock
>things up so that it wouldn't even POST. Pressing the
>Power Button or shorting the pins wouldn't start the sys,
>even with the little green light on the MB glowing.
On a restart maybe, but this was a problem from a
powered-off, cold start. No driver will effect getting into
the bios menu from a cold start.
>
> I have no way of knowing if this has anything to do
>with the OP's problem, but it is possible. It is a long
>shot worth the trouble of plugging in a different simple
>keyboard. (One not designed to work with whatever
>enhanced drivers there may be on the problem sys.)
If the OP feels the keyboard is faulty, certainly another
should be tried. If the keyboard otherwise works once the
system is running (which it seems to do once ran and
restarted), having the keyboard only exhibit this problem
upon a cold start is also exceedingly unlikely.
"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:pkmcd3l8l0shdkt0rasdech8vrpor72ndp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:32:29 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
> <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
>>news:j9qbd3d0354a01npsscbl4af8hstl7h4au@4ax.com. ..
>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:18:02 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
>>> <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote in message
>>>>news:JkiBi.104337$rX4.39427@pd7urf2no...
>>>>>> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
>>>>>> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
>>>>>> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
>>>>>> wake on LAN, or such.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
>>>>"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
>>>>it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".
>>>>
>>>> But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
>>>>block virus works. There is more interaction possible
>>>>than you appear to be aware of.
>>>
>>> There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
>>> aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
>>> attempts to boot from that drive.
>>
>> Which occurs right after the POST, well within the 4min.
>>mentioned.
>
> There is no software factor including boot sector viri,
> which impede entering the bios menus. The machine has
> already demonstrated it is a hardware failure at that point.
> While it is /possible/ there is also a software failure,
> untill the initial hardware failure is resolved it would be
> premature to assume it.
>
>
>>
>> You are aware that there are programs that even rewrite
>>the BIOS from XP?
>
> Yes, they have to have some intelligence of the specific
> board to work. Show us even one virus that can write to
> this board.
>
>> If interaction at the level of totally
>>rewriting the BIOS are possible, why do you find it so hard
>>to understand that some of the data that the BIOS must
>>use can also be changed, is it just because I'm the one
>>pointing it out?
>
> What is theoretically possible, but never shown to exist
> with capability to flash the OP's board, is a scenrio so
> unlikely it would not be reasonable to consider unless there
> was evidence suggesting it.
>
> There are too many things to even enumerate that are
> possible if we can't play odds at least a little bit. There
> is no reason to think the bios has been written to, and
> particularly not that it had been written to but remained
> intact enough to POST the system only locking up soon
> thereafter. The odds are far lower than 1 in a million.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> But I would also direct you to any definition of the term
>>"Long Shot". This is based on an actual startup problem
>>I had with one system of mine, and it did turn out to be
>>caused by a keyboard driver problem. It would lock
>>things up so that it wouldn't even POST. Pressing the
>>Power Button or shorting the pins wouldn't start the sys,
>>even with the little green light on the MB glowing.
>
> On a restart maybe, but this was a problem from a
> powered-off, cold start. No driver will effect getting into
> the bios menu from a cold start.
>
>
>>
>> I have no way of knowing if this has anything to do
>>with the OP's problem, but it is possible. It is a long
>>shot worth the trouble of plugging in a different simple
>>keyboard. (One not designed to work with whatever
>>enhanced drivers there may be on the problem sys.)
>
>
> If the OP feels the keyboard is faulty, certainly another
> should be tried. If the keyboard otherwise works once the
> system is running (which it seems to do once ran and
> restarted), having the keyboard only exhibit this problem
> upon a cold start is also exceedingly unlikely.
Well the keyboard that I replaced worked fine when the
system was running, and still runs fine in another system,
(without the enhanced drivers). It ran fine as a keyboard
except when it was killing the restart of the system. Even
when it was shutdown with the power key and the switch
on the PSU turned off for a while, cold enough for you?
I could agree that it is an odd, probably rare occurrence,
but it did happen to this one system of mine. It gets a
little tiring to listen to you saying that what I've seen with
my own eyes, is not possible. Let's see, Kony and his
theory or objective reality, I'll take the evidence of my own
eyes. It could be that it was a coincidence that when the
keyboard was changed and the drivers removed, the system
could be started reliably again. But I find that highly unlikely.
The OP has nothing to loose trying another keyboard, and
since it is a long shot, the odds are that it won't be the answer
to his problem. Why you are so dead set against even
considering the possibility, could be another question.
kony wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
> There is no software factor including boot sector viri, which
> impede entering the bios menus. The machine has already
> demonstrated it is a hardware failure at that point. While it is
> /possible/ there is also a software failure, until the initial
> hardware failure is resolved it would be premature to assume it.
I have to disagree. To illustrate, consider a machine with a
pluggable ROM bios. Unnplug the bios. You will no longer be able
to boot, or to enter any bios menus, etc. Yet normal operation
would be unaffected if you could remove the ROM while running,
because normally the entire bios is over-ridden by opsys code.
If you just want to say 'unlikely', I will agree.
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 05:07:17 -0400, CBFalconer
<cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>kony wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>>
>> There is no software factor including boot sector viri, which
>> impede entering the bios menus. The machine has already
>> demonstrated it is a hardware failure at that point. While it is
>> /possible/ there is also a software failure, until the initial
>> hardware failure is resolved it would be premature to assume it.
>
>I have to disagree. To illustrate, consider a machine with a
>pluggable ROM bios. Unnplug the bios. You will no longer be able
>to boot, or to enter any bios menus, etc. Yet normal operation
>would be unaffected if you could remove the ROM while running,
>because normally the entire bios is over-ridden by opsys code.
>
>If you just want to say 'unlikely', I will agree.
Remember the system when cold/off, does post and run up
until the point where it locks up. This means it does read
and run the bios from the EPROM, but is then instable.
Unplugging the EPROM would make this much impossible, so
based upon what the system could do, but then where it
stopped, we have eliminated some things.
Maurice Batey wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:02:07 -0400, CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> What does this have to do with what?
>
> Merely to add that those tests were tried, rather than overlooked.
?? What tests? What problems? On what?
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
kony wrote:
> <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> kony wrote:
>>>
>>... snip ...
>>>
>>> There is no software factor including boot sector viri, which
>>> impede entering the bios menus. The machine has already
>>> demonstrated it is a hardware failure at that point. While it is
>>> /possible/ there is also a software failure, until the initial
>>> hardware failure is resolved it would be premature to assume it.
>>
>> I have to disagree. To illustrate, consider a machine with a
>> pluggable ROM bios. Unnplug the bios. You will no longer be able
>> to boot, or to enter any bios menus, etc. Yet normal operation
>> would be unaffected if you could remove the ROM while running,
>> because normally the entire bios is over-ridden by opsys code.
>>
>> If you just want to say 'unlikely', I will agree.
>
> Remember the system when cold/off, does post and run up
> until the point where it locks up. This means it does read
> and run the bios from the EPROM, but is then instable.
>
> Unplugging the EPROM would make this much impossible, so
> based upon what the system could do, but then where it
> stopped, we have eliminated some things.
Ah, that's different than the scene I envisioned. Conceded.
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Hardware problem 
Linear Mode
