I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
the front for fans on any air flow at all.
Product like this will NOT work in my case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
I need sommething like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:24:59 -0400, MachineMessiah
<Geoffthegodofbiscuits@cakeordeath.net> wrote:
>
>I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
>What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
>Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
>the front for fans on any air flow at all.
So get a metal nibbler and cut a hole out. I'm partial to
using a sabre saw for that before the system is built into
the case, but afterwards to avoid the debris the nibbler can
be useful, if you have a large enough hole to start the cut.
These cheap thin fans with sleeve bearings, especially as
implemented horizontally mounted, wear out quickly, and
make a fair amount of noise during the last leg of their
life. I suggest replacing the original fan with one of same
diameter and at least 15mm thick (preferribly thicker, it
could be mounted under the bracket instead of inside it if
you have available space in the drive rack to do that), in a
quality name brand (major fan manufacturer brand, not a PC
parts relabeler brand) _dual_ ball bearing type.
Having a hole in the front of the case really is the better
option, and perhaps mounting an intake fan there if the
ambient temp is high enough to warrant it.
Do you want to keep battling a cheap case though? Might be
that the poor airflow is effecting more than just the hard
drive.
"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4kaog31eb60ij9tbp1sgqbarkhi304ubgg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:24:59 -0400, MachineMessiah
> <Geoffthegodofbiscuits@cakeordeath.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
>>What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
>>Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
>>the front for fans on any air flow at all.
>
> So get a metal nibbler and cut a hole out. I'm partial to
> using a sabre saw for that before the system is built into
> the case, but afterwards to avoid the debris the nibbler can
> be useful, if you have a large enough hole to start the cut.
>
>
>
>>Product like this will NOT work in my case:
>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
>
> I don't think you'd want it, since it's loud and short
> lived.
>
>
>
>>I need sommething like this:
>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
>>Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
>
> These cheap thin fans with sleeve bearings, especially as
> implemented horizontally mounted, wear out quickly, and
> make a fair amount of noise during the last leg of their
> life. I suggest replacing the original fan with one of same
> diameter and at least 15mm thick (preferribly thicker, it
> could be mounted under the bracket instead of inside it if
> you have available space in the drive rack to do that), in a
> quality name brand (major fan manufacturer brand, not a PC
> parts relabeler brand) _dual_ ball bearing type.
>
> Having a hole in the front of the case really is the better
> option, and perhaps mounting an intake fan there if the
> ambient temp is high enough to warrant it.
>
> Do you want to keep battling a cheap case though? Might be
> that the poor airflow is effecting more than just the hard
> drive.
I agree with Kony; you would be better off improving
the total airflow through your box and just having an
intake bring outside the box air across your hard drive(s).
I have a system with two Raptors and they stay cool
(~34c) on just such airflow. (I have another system
with the same 10k drives that is water-cooled and they
stay at 30c.)
If you want to add some airflow for your hard drives,
mount an exhaust fan in the upper rear of the case. That
is after you have made the cutouts Kony mentioned.
MachineMessiah wrote:
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
I bought a couple of those, one of which made a horrible grinding noise
right out of the box. Thermaltake would have been happy to replace that
piece of crap for another piece of crap just like it. I hardly paid
anything for it, so I sort of got what I deserved.
MachineMessiah wrote:
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
I bought a couple of those, one of which made a horrible grinding noise
right out of the box. Thermaltake would have been happy to replace that
piece of crap for another piece of crap just like it. I hardly paid
anything for it, so I sort of got what I deserved.
MachineMessiah wrote:
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> I need sommething like this:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
"Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?"
There are sleeve bearings, and there are sleeve bearings. Some sleeve
designs are sealed, and can be expected to keep their lubrication for
a decent period of time. These cheap, open, Taiwanese dollar store fans
cannot be expected to last very long at all (too noisy to keep). I've had
fans like that, that have failed on the first day. I've also had a fan,
that left a small puddle of oil below it, showing that the manufacturer
figured it would have a long life, if they could drown it in oil before
shipping.
This is an example of a fan intended to last longer than a day. It also
has a price to match.
"As the shaft rotates it acts as a pump constantly circulating the oil
in the radial, as well as the axial direction. The sealed system and
reservoirs of oil maintain the proper lubrication to minimise mechanical
contact and prolong the fan's life expectancy."
So some makers know how to make a sleeve. If in doubt, go for ball bearings
instead. The gradual increase in noise level, as a ball bearing gets old,
will give you some hint when the ball bearing one is wearing out.
On my current computer case, the hard drive is located right next to the
air intake vent on the case (down low, in the front of the case). The case
has a 120mm exhaust fan in the back (located below the PSU), and it pulls
air through the case. Since the hard drive is right next to the air intake,
the hard drive gets fresh air all the time. That is much better than
recirculating hot air with some of those hard drive coolers. So there are
other ways to solve the problem.
I even reworked my oldest computer case, and bolted a 120mm fan
to the front exterior of the case, right in front of the hard drive bays. The
drive covers are removed. The fan blows cold room air, over the hard drives.
I made a frame out of aluminum L strips, to hold the fan in place. I made a
gasket, so the fan fits tightly and air doesn't leak around the edges of the
framework. Obviously, this is not a solution if you have kids, who will stick
their fingers into the fan. But it also gives a good working solution. The
reason for this approach, is the case is too small to have room for a decent
exhaust fan on the rear. But modern computer cases now come with room for a
120mm on the back, and then all you need is to make good inlet air vents on
the front, so the drives get cool air.
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> I need sommething like this:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
Well if your hard disk is overheating, then the rest of your system probably
is too. This means you are shortening the lifespan of your CPU, motherboard,
memory, PSU etc. Cut 2 holes in your cheap case and fit a 120mm intake fan
and another exhaust fan in the opposite corner.
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> I need sommething like this:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
Any old 12v fan from the parts box run on 5v should provide enough
air movement to deal with an overheating hdd etc. (not a laptop fan
though)
"MachineMessiah" <Geoffthegodofbiscuits@cakeordeath.net> wrote in
message news:_sKdnYZH2rBHhpHanZ2dnUVZ_tTinZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings
> in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> I need sommething like this:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
How about just moving the other devices (drives) away from each other
so there is an empty space between to let the heated air get away from
the heat source? If you have filled up the 3-1/2" drive cage at the
bottom, use mounting brackets to move one or two up into the 5-1/4"
bays at the top.
You sure there is no opening at the front bottom of the case? Maybe
they don't use a hole in the front panel but instead have the air
pulled in between the chassis and the front panel through a bottom
space between the two (i.e., instead of sucking straight in, it sucks
from the bottom front). That means you need to keep the bottom front
of the case free of debris. Don't set it on a carpeted floor or
otherwise block the bottom front.
As Kony points out, you could nibble out a hole (and put a guard grill
over it). You probably can't make a hole in the front panel unless it
is completely flat there, so make one in the side panel alongside the
drive cage. Just adding the hole may be sufficient to cool the hard
drives. However, if they are packed right next together so there is
no airflow between them then maybe they will still remain hot. If
there isn't enough room between the side panel and the drive cage,
which is likely, mount the fan on the outside of the side panel and
put the guard grill on the outside edge of the fan.
If the drive cage is full (and so are the 5-1/4" drive bays at the
top), but if the drive cage does not sit on the bottom of the case so
there is space under it, you might consider moving the drives away
from each other by mounting one drive *under* the cage. You could use
strapping tape (metal bandiron with punched out holes, often used to
hang plumbing from house beams, available at hardware stores) to
provide tangs that get fastened at the top by one drive and extend
downward so you can affix a hard drive under the cage. I prefer
buying metals bars (also at the hardware store), hacksawed to length,
polished with steel wool, and drilling out the holes at each end (at
top for screw used to hole a drive within the cage and at bottom for
mounting the underneath drive); however, unlike the thin strapping
tape, the metal bars are thicker so you need longer screws (for both
drives the within-cage and dangled drives). You might just try using
an adapter bracket that lets you mount a 3-1/2" drive in a 5-1/4" bay.
The type that I'm thinking of are not the big chassis that extends
across the entire bay and where you screw in the smaller drive but
instead the type that look like c-shaped channels that you screw on
each side of the smaller drive. You could bend up one end and flatten
with a hammer to make the equivalent of the bars or tape that I
mention to let you dangle a drive under the cage.
Adding cooling works if there is actually somewhere for the air to
flow through. If the drives are butting up against each other, you
won't be getting air between them for effective cooling.
> > > I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> > > What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> > > Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> > > the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> > > Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> > > I need sommething like this:
> > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> > > Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
> >
> > Any old 12v fan from the parts box run on 5v should provide enough
> > air movement to deal with an overheating hdd etc. (not a laptop fan
> > though)
>
> I am not so sure if the fan speed is really depending on the voltage
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:22:11 -0500, Joel <Joel@NoSpam.com>
wrote:
>meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>> MachineMessiah wrote:
>>
>> > I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
>> > What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
>> > Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
>> > the front for fans on any air flow at all.
>> > Product like this will NOT work in my case:
>> > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
>> > I need sommething like this:
>> > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
>> > Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
>>
>> Any old 12v fan from the parts box run on 5v should provide enough
>> air movement to deal with an overheating hdd etc. (not a laptop fan
>> though)
>
> I am not so sure if the fan speed is really depending on the voltage (I
>know my 120v is much more powerful then my PC fan), but there are some small
>fans those can suck lot of air.
>
yes the speed generally varies per voltage.
120V fans don't belong in a PC, and there is no need for a
fan that "powerful". Normal 12V fans come in different
speed ratings per 12V, and by varying the voltage a little
higher or lower it will effect the RPM with "most" fans
(there are rare exceptions, some industrial fans but these
aren't generally used in PCs either).
The most common way to arrive at exactly the fan speed you
want is to either select the fan with this original speed
spec, or if it's a lower speed you're after than any model
supports at 12V, then buy the _slowest_ model in the
manufacturer/family you prefer, then use either voltage or
current limiting to further reduce it's RPM. A fan
controller can be one method of achieving that, but takes up
a spare bay in most cases, costs more, is sometimes noisey
(squealing sound from loose inductor windings), and some are
not very reliable.
Personally, I like using a series resistor. Inexpesive,
more reliable, and allows lower RPM than many other methods
without introducing as much of the ticking noise that many
fans make once they go below a certain RPM. Depending on
the particular specimen of fan, a general range for such
resistors is 2W and from 47 to 120 Ohm. The faster the RPM
before the resistor is added, the lower the resistor value
you will need, which seems a little counterintuitive but is
a matter of coming closer to the fan's average motor
resistance, a roughly equal ratio of that or a little less
than equal if the system's cooling requirements prevent
using the fan at the lowest RPM it could run at quietly and
reliably. Total price for 3 fans using resistor current
limiting is about $16-40, depending on if you have the
resistors and are willing to look for good prices on the
fans (newegg tends to charge quite a lot for some of their
better fans).
kony wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:22:11 -0500, Joel <Joel@NoSpam.com>
> wrote:
> >meow2222@care2.com wrote:
> >> MachineMessiah wrote:
> >> > I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> >> > What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> >> > Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> >> > the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> >> > Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> >> > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> >> > I need sommething like this:
> >> > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> >> > Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
> >>
> >> Any old 12v fan from the parts box run on 5v should provide enough
> >> air movement to deal with an overheating hdd etc. (not a laptop fan
> >> though)
> >
> > I am not so sure if the fan speed is really depending on the voltage (I
> >know my 120v is much more powerful then my PC fan), but there are some small
> >fans those can suck lot of air.
> >
>
> yes the speed generally varies per voltage.
>
> 120V fans don't belong in a PC, and there is no need for a
> fan that "powerful". Normal 12V fans come in different
> speed ratings per 12V, and by varying the voltage a little
> higher or lower it will effect the RPM with "most" fans
> (there are rare exceptions, some industrial fans but these
> aren't generally used in PCs either).
>
> The most common way to arrive at exactly the fan speed you
> want is to either select the fan with this original speed
> spec, or if it's a lower speed you're after than any model
> supports at 12V, then buy the _slowest_ model in the
> manufacturer/family you prefer, then use either voltage or
> current limiting to further reduce it's RPM. A fan
> controller can be one method of achieving that, but takes up
> a spare bay in most cases, costs more, is sometimes noisey
> (squealing sound from loose inductor windings), and some are
> not very reliable.
>
> Personally, I like using a series resistor. Inexpesive,
> more reliable, and allows lower RPM than many other methods
> without introducing as much of the ticking noise that many
> fans make once they go below a certain RPM. Depending on
> the particular specimen of fan, a general range for such
> resistors is 2W and from 47 to 120 Ohm. The faster the RPM
> before the resistor is added, the lower the resistor value
> you will need, which seems a little counterintuitive but is
> a matter of coming closer to the fan's average motor
> resistance, a roughly equal ratio of that or a little less
> than equal if the system's cooling requirements prevent
> using the fan at the lowest RPM it could run at quietly and
> reliably. Total price for 3 fans using resistor current
> limiting is about $16-40, depending on if you have the
> resistors and are willing to look for good prices on the
> fans (newegg tends to charge quite a lot for some of their
> better fans).
Any dropper can work, but resistors are poor
performers, as they reduce starting v and i, resulting in fans
failing to start when friction increases over time. Series diodes, if
you need a voltage other than 5v, are a better bet.
>> Personally, I like using a series resistor. Inexpesive,
>> more reliable, and allows lower RPM than many other methods
>> without introducing as much of the ticking noise that many
>> fans make once they go below a certain RPM. Depending on
>> the particular specimen of fan, a general range for such
>> resistors is 2W and from 47 to 120 Ohm. The faster the RPM
>> before the resistor is added, the lower the resistor value
>> you will need, which seems a little counterintuitive but is
>> a matter of coming closer to the fan's average motor
>> resistance, a roughly equal ratio of that or a little less
>> than equal if the system's cooling requirements prevent
>> using the fan at the lowest RPM it could run at quietly and
>> reliably. Total price for 3 fans using resistor current
>> limiting is about $16-40, depending on if you have the
>> resistors and are willing to look for good prices on the
>> fans (newegg tends to charge quite a lot for some of their
>> better fans).
>
>Any dropper can work, but resistors are poor
>performers, as they reduce starting v and i, resulting in fans
>failing to start when friction increases over time. Series diodes, if
>you need a voltage other than 5v, are a better bet.
I have used series diodes, even made a 12 position rotary
switch to place additional diodes in series so I could test
different fans to determine what number of diodes would
produce the target RPM. After determining that and
comparing the result with use of a series resistor instead,
I find the resistor mechanically and functionally superior
if/when there is ever a difference.
I just don't ever see spin-up problems using the resistor
because if the current were limited that much to produce a
target RPM that spin-up were a problem, then most often that
target RPM is so low it had already introduced more
pulsating noise (if diodes or other voltage limiting were
used (even noisier than if it were ran at a slightly higher
RPM due to this)).
Today the only time I make use of the 12 position diode
switch is a quick test (since it has the appropriate
connectors to directly plug a 4 position molex plug into
it) to determine if a fan might run acceptibly at 5V, and
thus not needing any voltage or current limiting strategy
but rather taking it's molex pins and extracting and moving
the 12V pin to the 5V position for directly powering on 5V
rail. I tend to never power fans direct from 5V unless in a
rush, because this too produces more pulsating noise than if
a resistive limiter were used.
I use resistors in practically every system I set up and
never has the "friction increase" been a problem, including
systems over 10 years old. If the bearing is shot enough
that you find it can't start with the resistor, the friction
is bad enough the fan was about dead already and it would
only be a short while until no method would have it spin up.
The key then is not how it was throttled but to either
relube it if sleeve-bearing or replace with a better fan.
It is better not use a voltage reducer, to use a current
limiter instead. The difference is that at a certain point
of voltage reduction, the fan starts making a ticking sound
because with only voltage limiting there is a surge current
each time the (next) motor coil is energized, a sudden
increase in torque which is not just producing a new
additional noise but also harder on the bearings. The noise
is also at least as objectionable and probably moreso
because it is not a constant monotone but rather
tick-tick-tick rapidly. Granted, with some fans it is very
faint, but the resistive method is quieter.
With the resistive current limit instead the fan can run to
lower RPM and is gentler on the bearings, in addition to
being simplier to implement with one resistor than having to
tack together roughly 6 to 10 (!) diodes in series to get
the typical came-with-case fan down to a more reasonable
noise level. Not that I prefer the typical came-with-case
fans, but some can be acceptible so long as they're not the
cheapest sleeve-bearing junk and/or are relubed
periodically.
If you were only trying for a lesser voltage reduction, say
down to ~7V or above, either the current limiting resistor
or voltage reducing (diodes or linear or whatever) will work
acceptibly, as that is high enough that few fans would start
making a ticking sound and run with torque pulsations.
MachineMessiah wrote:
> I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> the front for fans on any air flow at all.
I just mount the drives vertically, either from the drive bay rack or
on the floor of the case. That alone cuts the body temp. by about 3F
and the temps of any exposed chips by as much as 20F.
Re: I need a hard drive cooler. Suggestions? Thanks for all the replies
In article <h52qg35fpg3jqsv32uaa5gq56f47ji3rnc@4ax.com>, Joel@NoSpam.com
says...
> meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
> > MachineMessiah wrote:
> >
> > > I've got a Western Digital hard drive that's running too hot.
> > > What's a good hard drive cooler to buy? I'm shopping at newegg.com.
> > > Drives are at the bottom of a cheap aluminum case with no openings in
> > > the front for fans on any air flow at all.
> > > Product like this will NOT work in my case:
> > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150077
> > > I need sommething like this:
> > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999152
> > > Reviewers don't seme to care for sleeve bearings, why?
> >
> > Any old 12v fan from the parts box run on 5v should provide enough
> > air movement to deal with an overheating hdd etc. (not a laptop fan
> > though)
>
> I am not so sure if the fan speed is really depending on the voltage (I
> know my 120v is much more powerful then my PC fan), but there are some small
> fans those can suck lot of air.
>
> And also pay attention to the NOISE LEVEL as some can make noise like a
> vacumm, so you may need Fan Speed Control to be able to reduce the speed and
> noise.
>
> I got my from Newegg too (about 2 years ago) and it cost around $100 for 3
> powerful fans and 1 Fans Speed Controller supports up to 4 fans.
>
> > NT
>
Gentlemen:
Much as I'd love to cut a hole in the front of this ditzy case, I am
female and lack the tools or the know-how to do so. My husband is even
more useless with tools than I am. I bought and use all the power tools
in our household. The only tool I've ever seen my husband use was a
flathead screwdriver.
I did find out the hard way that K-mart is not a good place to buy a
dremel.
I have thoughly learned my lesson about cheap cases. I took the side off
the cheap case to get some airflow. My second computer, which has a very
good case and lots of fans, still shows lower temps then cheap case.
I really should just buy another case but the hardware inside is getting
obsolete. I don't want to risk trashing the whole works for a mobo that
will only take a 400 FSB P4. When I build a new second computer I will
buy a new case as well.
Oh, I do have the drives in the case so that there's space between each
one. Plenty of room for a hd cooler that mounts on the drive. It's only
one drive that's having heat issues. It's the oldest drive in the rig,
from 2003. The rest of the hardware that I can get temps for are within
tolerable specs.
Thanks again everyone.
Re: I need a hard drive cooler. Suggestions? Thanks for all the replies
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:54:02 -0400, MachineMessiah
<Geoffthegodofbiscuits@cakeordeath.net> wrote:
>Gentlemen:
>Much as I'd love to cut a hole in the front of this ditzy case, I am
>female and lack the tools or the know-how to do so. My husband is even
>more useless with tools than I am. I bought and use all the power tools
>in our household. The only tool I've ever seen my husband use was a
>flathead screwdriver.
>I did find out the hard way that K-mart is not a good place to buy a
>dremel.
>I have thoughly learned my lesson about cheap cases. I took the side off
>the cheap case to get some airflow. My second computer, which has a very
>good case and lots of fans, still shows lower temps then cheap case.
>I really should just buy another case but the hardware inside is getting
>obsolete. I don't want to risk trashing the whole works for a mobo that
>will only take a 400 FSB P4. When I build a new second computer I will
>buy a new case as well.
>Oh, I do have the drives in the case so that there's space between each
>one. Plenty of room for a hd cooler that mounts on the drive. It's only
>one drive that's having heat issues. It's the oldest drive in the rig,
>from 2003. The rest of the hardware that I can get temps for are within
>tolerable specs.
>Thanks again everyone.
If the case has reasonable rear exhaust rate and a free
(external) 5-1/4" bay, there is another option. Get a set
of drive rails to mount the HDD in the 5-1/4" bay, then
either leave the bay faceplate off, put a piece of screening
or filter material in it's place, or drill a bunch of little
holes into that bay's blank faceplate (I mean the plastic
piece, not the metal blank plate that might still be behind
that but would be completely removed).
The result will be passive air intake through the
opening(s), flowing past the drive. If there are too many
other cracks and holes scattered around the case in unuseful
locations (leaving those in front of and beside the original
HDD rack alone), you might want to patch over them with tape
or stickers or whatever seems handy, so more of the air
intake comes in through the holes in front of all drives...
just don't overdo it or you might find other lower-quadrant
parts like a southbridge or video card running hotter. If
the rear exhaust fan(s) are too anemic, it could also be of
benefit to replace them with some having higher CFM (and
RPM, or a thicker fan will tend to move more at same RPM if
there's enough space for this).
kony wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:20:20 -0700, meow2222@care2.com
> wrote:
> >> Personally, I like using a series resistor. Inexpesive,
> >> more reliable, and allows lower RPM than many other methods
> >> without introducing as much of the ticking noise that many
> >> fans make once they go below a certain RPM. Depending on
> >> the particular specimen of fan, a general range for such
> >> resistors is 2W and from 47 to 120 Ohm. The faster the RPM
> >> before the resistor is added, the lower the resistor value
> >> you will need, which seems a little counterintuitive but is
> >> a matter of coming closer to the fan's average motor
> >> resistance, a roughly equal ratio of that or a little less
> >> than equal if the system's cooling requirements prevent
> >> using the fan at the lowest RPM it could run at quietly and
> >> reliably. Total price for 3 fans using resistor current
> >> limiting is about $16-40, depending on if you have the
> >> resistors and are willing to look for good prices on the
> >> fans (newegg tends to charge quite a lot for some of their
> >> better fans).
> >
> >Any dropper can work, but resistors are poor
> >performers, as they reduce starting v and i, resulting in fans
> >failing to start when friction increases over time. Series diodes, if
> >you need a voltage other than 5v, are a better bet.
>
> I have used series diodes, even made a 12 position rotary
> switch to place additional diodes in series so I could test
> different fans to determine what number of diodes would
> produce the target RPM. After determining that and
> comparing the result with use of a series resistor instead,
> I find the resistor mechanically and functionally superior
> if/when there is ever a difference.
>
> I just don't ever see spin-up problems using the resistor
> because if the current were limited that much to produce a
> target RPM that spin-up were a problem, then most often that
> target RPM is so low it had already introduced more
> pulsating noise (if diodes or other voltage limiting were
> used (even noisier than if it were ran at a slightly higher
> RPM due to this)).
>
> Today the only time I make use of the 12 position diode
> switch is a quick test (since it has the appropriate
> connectors to directly plug a 4 position molex plug into
> it) to determine if a fan might run acceptibly at 5V, and
> thus not needing any voltage or current limiting strategy
> but rather taking it's molex pins and extracting and moving
> the 12V pin to the 5V position for directly powering on 5V
> rail. I tend to never power fans direct from 5V unless in a
> rush, because this too produces more pulsating noise than if
> a resistive limiter were used.
>
> I use resistors in practically every system I set up and
> never has the "friction increase" been a problem, including
> systems over 10 years old. If the bearing is shot enough
> that you find it can't start with the resistor, the friction
> is bad enough the fan was about dead already and it would
> only be a short while until no method would have it spin up.
> The key then is not how it was throttled but to either
> relube it if sleeve-bearing or replace with a better fan.
>
> It is better not use a voltage reducer, to use a current
> limiter instead. The difference is that at a certain point
> of voltage reduction, the fan starts making a ticking sound
> because with only voltage limiting there is a surge current
> each time the (next) motor coil is energized, a sudden
> increase in torque which is not just producing a new
> additional noise but also harder on the bearings. The noise
> is also at least as objectionable and probably moreso
> because it is not a constant monotone but rather
> tick-tick-tick rapidly. Granted, with some fans it is very
> faint, but the resistive method is quieter.
>
> With the resistive current limit instead the fan can run to
> lower RPM and is gentler on the bearings, in addition to
> being simplier to implement with one resistor than having to
> tack together roughly 6 to 10 (!) diodes in series to get
> the typical came-with-case fan down to a more reasonable
> noise level. Not that I prefer the typical came-with-case
> fans, but some can be acceptible so long as they're not the
> cheapest sleeve-bearing junk and/or are relubed
> periodically.
>
> If you were only trying for a lesser voltage reduction, say
> down to ~7V or above, either the current limiting resistor
> or voltage reducing (diodes or linear or whatever) will work
> acceptibly, as that is high enough that few fans would start
> making a ticking sound and run with torque pulsations.
Interesting, I may try that. I have had fans seize, but none were on
droppers. I guess the pulsing has more effect on life than the
premature failure that happens when fan motors are current limited,
as a result of increasing friction with reduced starting torque.
Re: I need a hard drive cooler. Suggestions? Thanks for all the replies
kony wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:54:02 -0400, MachineMessiah
> <Geoffthegodofbiscuits@cakeordeath.net> wrote:
> >Gentlemen:
> >Much as I'd love to cut a hole in the front of this ditzy case, I am
> >female and lack the tools or the know-how to do so. My husband is even
> >more useless with tools than I am. I bought and use all the power tools
> >in our household. The only tool I've ever seen my husband use was a
> >flathead screwdriver.
> >I did find out the hard way that K-mart is not a good place to buy a
> >dremel.
> >I have thoughly learned my lesson about cheap cases. I took the side off
> >the cheap case to get some airflow. My second computer, which has a very
> >good case and lots of fans, still shows lower temps then cheap case.
> >I really should just buy another case but the hardware inside is getting
> >obsolete. I don't want to risk trashing the whole works for a mobo that
> >will only take a 400 FSB P4. When I build a new second computer I will
> >buy a new case as well.
> >Oh, I do have the drives in the case so that there's space between each
> >one. Plenty of room for a hd cooler that mounts on the drive. It's only
> >one drive that's having heat issues. It's the oldest drive in the rig,
> >from 2003. The rest of the hardware that I can get temps for are within
> >tolerable specs.
> >Thanks again everyone.
Forgive me for asking this, but when you say the HDD is too hot,
what is its actual temp? I ask because I've long lost count of the
number of people trying to cool things that were well below their
temp limits already.
> If the case has reasonable rear exhaust rate and a free
> (external) 5-1/4" bay, there is another option. Get a set
> of drive rails to mount the HDD in the 5-1/4" bay, then
> either leave the bay faceplate off, put a piece of screening
> or filter material in it's place, or drill a bunch of little
> holes into that bay's blank faceplate (I mean the plastic
> piece, not the metal blank plate that might still be behind
> that but would be completely removed).
>
> The result will be passive air intake through the
> opening(s), flowing past the drive. If there are too many
> other cracks and holes scattered around the case in unuseful
> locations (leaving those in front of and beside the original
> HDD rack alone), you might want to patch over them with tape
> or stickers or whatever seems handy, so more of the air
> intake comes in through the holes in front of all drives...
> just don't overdo it or you might find other lower-quadrant
> parts like a southbridge or video card running hotter.
I really wouldnt. Many mobos are designed for the case theyre in,
with no more heatsinking on regulators etc than is needed for that
specific case. Drill holes and block some and you're then looking
at a PC with very short life expectancy as the mobo slowly fries
itself.
>Interesting, I may try that. I have had fans seize, but none were on
>droppers. I guess the pulsing has more effect on life than the
>premature failure that happens when fan motors are current limited,
>as a result of increasing friction with reduced starting torque.
??
There's no increased friction with reduced starting torque.
The lower the torque the lower the friction.
Regardless, using a high quality >= 15mm thick fan at low
RPM, and suited for the use (no sleeve bearing fans in
non-vertical or high heat intake areas) generally results in
many years of service. I feel the issue of pulsating has
less effect than these other factors.
>> If the case has reasonable rear exhaust rate and a free
>> (external) 5-1/4" bay, there is another option. Get a set
>> of drive rails to mount the HDD in the 5-1/4" bay, then
>> either leave the bay faceplate off, put a piece of screening
>> or filter material in it's place, or drill a bunch of little
>> holes into that bay's blank faceplate (I mean the plastic
>> piece, not the metal blank plate that might still be behind
>> that but would be completely removed).
>>
>> The result will be passive air intake through the
>> opening(s), flowing past the drive. If there are too many
>> other cracks and holes scattered around the case in unuseful
>> locations (leaving those in front of and beside the original
>> HDD rack alone), you might want to patch over them with tape
>> or stickers or whatever seems handy, so more of the air
>> intake comes in through the holes in front of all drives...
>> just don't overdo it or you might find other lower-quadrant
>> parts like a southbridge or video card running hotter.
>
>I really wouldnt. Many mobos are designed for the case theyre in,
>with no more heatsinking on regulators etc than is needed for that
>specific case. Drill holes and block some and you're then looking
>at a PC with very short life expectancy as the mobo slowly fries
>itself.
Not at all. Motherboards are not designed for the case
they're in with rare exceptions (VERY proprietary OEM
builds). Usually it's just a generic ATX or BTX design,
meaning the holes I'm referring to blocking are not
standardized but rather scattered around in variable
locations. The holes of importance that should not be
blocked are those as specified in the ATX/BTX design guides,
the front intake and rear exhaust.
kony wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:03:01 -0700, meow2222@care2.com
> wrote:
> >Interesting, I may try that. I have had fans seize, but none were on
> >droppers. I guess the pulsing has more effect on life than the
> >premature failure that happens when fan motors are current limited,
> >as a result of increasing friction with reduced starting torque.
>
>
> ??
>
> There's no increased friction with reduced starting torque.
> The lower the torque the lower the friction.
its normal for motor bearings to increase in friction over time, due
to a few causes. Its a well known cause of fan failures.
>kony wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:03:01 -0700, meow2222@care2.com
>> wrote:
>
>> >Interesting, I may try that. I have had fans seize, but none were on
>> >droppers. I guess the pulsing has more effect on life than the
>> >premature failure that happens when fan motors are current limited,
>> >as a result of increasing friction with reduced starting torque.
>>
>>
>> ??
>>
>> There's no increased friction with reduced starting torque.
>> The lower the torque the lower the friction.
>
>its normal for motor bearings to increase in friction over time, due
>to a few causes. Its a well known cause of fan failures.
>
>
>NT
Yes, but less than you might think. If the bearing is
frozen already it's not going to be good for more than a few
power cycles. If the bearing is dragging so badly it would
effect spin-up, it's days are still numbered, contrasted
with total life of many years if it were a good fan.
I guess the main point is, with a good fan running at very
low RPM, it comes closer to being the last failure point in
a system instead of the first. It just won't reach a point
where the bearing degradation matters before other factors
take down the system. In worst case you may have a PSU that
you don't want to void the warranty on, so it's left in
original state until the warranty has expired (or you dont'
care about the warranty, as I usually don't when it ends up
resulting in more downtime and same cost to ship it off and
wait weeks or longer for a replacement than to just fix it
(if after popping it open, it's deemed worth fixing, but if
it isn't, it brings into question whether an equivalent RMA
replacement would really be a good solution either)).
kony wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:29:22 -0700, meow2222@care2.com
> wrote:
> >kony wrote:
> >> On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:03:01 -0700, meow2222@care2.com
> >> wrote:
> >> >Interesting, I may try that. I have had fans seize, but none were on
> >> >droppers. I guess the pulsing has more effect on life than the
> >> >premature failure that happens when fan motors are current limited,
> >> >as a result of increasing friction with reduced starting torque.
> >>
> >>
> >> ??
> >>
> >> There's no increased friction with reduced starting torque.
> >> The lower the torque the lower the friction.
> >
> >its normal for motor bearings to increase in friction over time, due
> >to a few causes. Its a well known cause of fan failures.
> >
> >
> >NT
>
> Yes, but less than you might think. If the bearing is
> frozen already it's not going to be good for more than a few
> power cycles. If the bearing is dragging so badly it would
> effect spin-up, it's days are still numbered, contrasted
> with total life of many years if it were a good fan.
>
> I guess the main point is, with a good fan running at very
> low RPM, it comes closer to being the last failure point in
> a system instead of the first. It just won't reach a point
> where the bearing degradation matters before other factors
> take down the system. In worst case you may have a PSU that
> you don't want to void the warranty on, so it's left in
> original state until the warranty has expired (or you dont'
> care about the warranty, as I usually don't when it ends up
> resulting in more downtime and same cost to ship it off and
> wait weeks or longer for a replacement than to just fix it
> (if after popping it open, it's deemed worth fixing, but if
> it isn't, it brings into question whether an equivalent RMA
> replacement would really be a good solution either)).
I guess PC fans must behave differently to mains fans in this
respect. Mains ones often get progressively stiffer until they stall,
and can have their bearings cleaned out and relubed, and will carry
on running for years or decades. I guess PCs dont last long
enough for the problem to occur to any significant extent in the
first place.
>I guess PC fans must behave differently to mains fans in this
>respect. Mains ones often get progressively stiffer until they stall,
>and can have their bearings cleaned out and relubed, and will carry
>on running for years or decades.
A high RPM PC fan could need relubed in a shorter interval
if cheap/junk, but a good mains fan shouldn't need bearings
cleaned and relubed for many years, unless it ran quite hot,
heating up the bearing (which some do, due to differences in
design).
>I guess PCs dont last long
>enough for the problem to occur to any significant extent in the
>first place.
A PC fan can easily last 20 years if only of good quality,
appropriate for the use, and ran at moderate to low RPM.
It's when the fan is low quality, higher RPM, or
inappropriate that there are problems.
Sometimes "inappropriate" is a matter of engineers using a
fan where they just don't care, or rather other constraints
like thickness and cost require abandonment of best
practices for longer life.
I need a hard drive cooler. Suggestions? 
Linear Mode
