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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 03:59 PM
John D
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Posts: n/a
Default OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
engineer.

Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.

ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
printer/copier.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 04:35 PM
DanG
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?


"John D" <jon@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A76A2BD614CA17E53A@127.0.0.1...
>I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
> copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
> engineer.
>
> Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>
> ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
> does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
> printer/copier.


Not all "inkjet paper" is coated, but those that do have coating definitely
should not be used in a laser.



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 07:10 PM
Mike Walsh
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?



me@mine.net wrote:
>
> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:59:52 +0100, in comp.periphs.printers John D
> <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>
> >Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
> >
> >ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
> >does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
> >printer/copier.

>
> Yes, the coating on inkjet papers are not formulated to take the heat
> of the fusing process in a laser printer. The worst case scenario is
> the coating melts and adheres to the hot fuser assembly.


Most ink jet printer paper is not coated. Coated paper was necessary for older printers printing at high resolution. E.g. my old Epson Stylus 500 printer had nozzles much larger than current printers and put out so much ink at 720 dpi that coated paper was needed. The coated paper is much more expensive than uncoated paper and it is unlikely that your paper is coated unless you intentionally paid the high price to get it.

--
Mike Walsh

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 07:32 PM
kony
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:59:52 +0100, John D <jon@nomail.com>
wrote:

>I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
>copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
>engineer.
>
>Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>
>ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>printer/copier.


IF it is coated and IF that coating is heat sensitive you
shouldn't use it. However, that would not cause "too much
toner". If the toner does not adhere well to the paper then
it might end up with a smeared or otherwise poor result but
it wouldn't necessarily be too much toner, only that what
toner there was didn't stay where it was supposed to.

If there is actually too much coming out of the cartridge
and getting onto the paper it might be that (often clear
plastic adhesive backed) a strip on the cartridge has come
loose. Since that gets toner on the adhesive area once
loose, it is not something you could fix yourself (unless
you had a cartridge rebuild kit and completely cleaned it
all which is a mess) IF that is the problem.

Try plain copy machine paper, it's easy to find and costs
less, then you'll know if paper made the difference.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 09:46 PM
Tony
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

John D <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
>copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
>engineer.
>
>Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>
>ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>printer/copier.


Unless the paper wrapper says that it is suitable for Lasers or Copiers then
you should not use it. Nowadays a lot of inkjet paper is in fact coated and the
coating will probably damage the fuser in a laser printer.
If the drum has a lot of toner on it when you remove it from the printer then
the most likely cause is a failed wiper blade in the drum unit depending on the
printer model. Which model is the printer?
Tony
MS MVP Printing/Imaging


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:56 PM
Andrew Smallshaw
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Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On 2008-04-04, John D <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
> I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
> copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
> engineer.


Are you by any chance using refilled and/or compatible high capacity
cartridges? Your toner cartridge when new incorporates an empty
chamber for clearing surplus toner away. When that has filled up
obviously it is unable to continue to do this.

--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 05:25 AM
kony
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:46:03 -0500, Tony
<tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:

>John D <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>>I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
>>copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
>>engineer.
>>
>>Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>>
>>ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>>does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>>printer/copier.

>
>Unless the paper wrapper says that it is suitable for Lasers or Copiers then
>you should not use it. Nowadays a lot of inkjet paper is in fact coated and the
>coating will probably damage the fuser in a laser printer.


Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
wouldn't cause problems).



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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Arthur Entlich
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT
be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high
temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the
paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit
quicker).

Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet
and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a
better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and
laser use.

The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use
specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and
semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may
melt under the heat of a laser fuser. However, even if they do not
melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated
matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but
again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version.

In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a
laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies.
Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar
types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may
cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to
$1.50.

Art


John D wrote:
> I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
> copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
> engineer.
>
> Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>
> ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
> does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
> printer/copier.


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Arthur Entlich
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?


Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.

Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.

Art


Mike Walsh wrote:
>
> me@mine.net wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:59:52 +0100, in comp.periphs.printers John D
>> <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>>>
>>> ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>>> does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>>> printer/copier.

>> Yes, the coating on inkjet papers are not formulated to take the heat
>> of the fusing process in a laser printer. The worst case scenario is
>> the coating melts and adheres to the hot fuser assembly.

>
> Most ink jet printer paper is not coated. Coated paper was necessary for older printers printing at high resolution. E.g. my old Epson Stylus 500 printer had nozzles much larger than current printers and put out so much ink at 720 dpi that coated paper was needed. The coated paper is much more expensive than uncoated paper and it is unlikely that your paper is coated unless you intentionally paid the high price to get it.
>


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:50 PM
Arthur Entlich
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

The risks are hard to reduce unless you specifically mention the exact
paper type you use and have reasonable results with. One sheet of the
wrong paper can make for a very costly repair on the laser printer.


Many inkjet papers, especially glossy ones, have one or more
non-absorption layers, which may be a low melting point plastic. As you
say, others are safe, but only with specific knowledge is it safe to
make a broad statement.

Art



kony wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:46:03 -0500, Tony
> <tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John D <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>>> I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
>>> copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
>>> engineer.
>>>
>>> Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>>>
>>> ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>>> does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>>> printer/copier.

>> Unless the paper wrapper says that it is suitable for Lasers or Copiers then
>> you should not use it. Nowadays a lot of inkjet paper is in fact coated and the
>> coating will probably damage the fuser in a laser printer.

>
> Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
> for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
> the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
> achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>
> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
> etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
> many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
> printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
> that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
> wouldn't cause problems).
>
>


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:50 PM
class_a
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

kony wrote:

> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
> etching patterns using the toner transfer method,


Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 02:47 PM
CBFalconer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
> Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
> which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
> art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
> coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
> gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.
>
> Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
> they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.


Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
irrelevant material. See the following links:

--
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
<http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html>
<http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html>
<http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> (taming google)
<http://members.fortunecity.com/nnqweb/> (newusers)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 10:03 PM
Tony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:46:03 -0500, Tony
><tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>John D <jon@nomail.com> wrote:
>>>I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
>>>copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
>>>engineer.
>>>
>>>Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.
>>>
>>>ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
>>>does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
>>>printer/copier.

>>
>>Unless the paper wrapper says that it is suitable for Lasers or Copiers then
>>you should not use it. Nowadays a lot of inkjet paper is in fact coated and
>>the
>>coating will probably damage the fuser in a laser printer.

>
>Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
>for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
>the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
>achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>
>I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
>many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
>printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
>that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
>wouldn't cause problems).


If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either
the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky. I have several customers
who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
using it in a laser. In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.
So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
Tony

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Andrew Smallshaw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On 2008-04-05, class_a <class_a@comcast.net> wrote:
> kony wrote:
>
>> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>> etching patterns using the toner transfer method,

>
> Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
> printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
> but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
> these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
> http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63


That is a different method that uses the film as a light mask.
The board is pre-treated with a photosensitive coating and exposed
to UV light through the mask. After sufficient time has elapsed
the board is removed and processed in a developer solution which
removes the coating only on the areas that have has sufficient
exposure to UV light. This is in fact the usual way of doing it,
especially in commercial settings because it gives the most consistent
results, although as you say it is not the cheapest arrangement
possible.

Home users are less consistent in the process they use, primarily
because the UV exposure units are fairly expensive (mine was over
100 and only does boards up to just over A5 in size). The method
Kony mentioned involves ironing the paper onto the board and peeling
it off. The toner at least in theory is transferred to the board
and forms the etch resist mask directly - no need for coated boards
or UV exposure.

I've tried it and myriad other home solutions with varying degrees
of success but gave up on them in favour of the UV solution. The
etch mask doesn't always transfer cleanly, sometimes the etchant
etches through the mask, and paper does vary dimensionally (with
humidity in particular, especially when you iron it) which can be
significant with super-fine-pitched devices. In short it's a great
experimental method but if you value your time and want consistent
results then I found it left much to be desired.

--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:32 PM
kony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:50:20 GMT, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:

>The risks are hard to reduce unless you specifically mention the exact
>paper type you use


The risks are only hard to reduce because they're so low
already. You're acting as though most are a problem when
it's the opposite. Perhaps it should be left to the user to
determine what gamble they're willing to take with an
unknown variable, or test by exposing the paper to heat like
near a stove burner then checking for excessive softening.


>...and have reasonable results with. One sheet of the
>wrong paper can make for a very costly repair on the laser printer.



True, but that's not quite the same as a blanket statement
that isn't correct. People can and do use coated paper, so
perhaps it would be better for you to list specific ones
that don't work, as it is the minority that would be a
problem.



>
>
>Many inkjet papers, especially glossy ones, have one or more
>non-absorption layers, which may be a low melting point plastic.


Whether you mean to or not, by omission in your statement
you seem to be implying something that is incorrect. The
vast majority of inkjet papers do not have a low melting
point plastic layer. The vast majority can go through a
laser printer fine. The types that are problematic tend to
be specifically described as to their (type of) plastic
construction.





> As you
>say, others are safe, but only with specific knowledge is it safe to
>make a broad statement.


True, and being conservative with someone else's printer is
a good idea. However, once someone is aware of the
conservative stance and it then comes down to details, most
coated papers don't cause a problem. If you know of any (at
all) that use a low melting point plastic layer and aren't
clearly described as containing plastic, please list those.

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:39 PM
kony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 07:50:50 -0400, class_a
<class_a@comcast.net> wrote:

>kony wrote:
>
>> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>> etching patterns using the toner transfer method,

>
>Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
>printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
>but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
>these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
>http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63


Overhead projector transparencies are better for finer pitch
designs. Usually I just have a PCB house make anything like
that, when the trace density is higher it makes more sense
as you are more likely to need more vias and 2+ layers.

For simplier circuits the toner transfer method works
acceptibly, at low cost, and it's not much of a hassle to
just put it in solution to soak for a few minutes. IMO,
more of a hassle to have the screen and light for
photoresist method, plus space dedicated to that equipment.
I suppose if it were the only activity then space isn't so
much of a factor but the amount of space all kinds of misc.
things take up, adds up.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:49 PM
kony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
<tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:


>>Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
>>for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
>>the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
>>achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>>
>>I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>>laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>>paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>>importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>>when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>>etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
>>many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
>>printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
>>that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
>>wouldn't cause problems).

>
>If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either
>the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.


False. Many, many people do so.


>I have several customers
>who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
>using it in a laser.


Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
not just coated paper or photopaper.


> In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
>suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.


I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
described as suitable for laser printers.

On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
paper that works in both types of printers because that
opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
higher temp.



>So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
>mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
>the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
>Tony


Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
the actual facts is excessive.

Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
what risk to take, not you or I.


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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:58 PM
kony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:

>In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT
>be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high
>temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the
>paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit
>quicker).


You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter
if most types of inkjet paper get hotter.


>
>Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet
>and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a
>better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and
>laser use.
>
>The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use
>specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and
>semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may
>melt under the heat of a laser fuser.



It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word
you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is,
like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without
problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't,
so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect.

>However, even if they do not
>melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated
>matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but
>again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version.


What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does
not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty
looking if that is a problem.



>
>In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a
>laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies.
> Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar
>types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may
>cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to
>$1.50.
>


Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using
coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of
urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have
insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating
the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat)
world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 03:40 AM
Tony
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
><tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
>>>for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
>>>the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
>>>achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>>>
>>>I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>>>laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>>>paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>>>importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>>>when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>>>etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
>>>many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
>>>printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
>>>that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
>>>wouldn't cause problems).

>>
>>If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then
>>either
>>the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.

>
>False. Many, many people do so.
>
>
>>I have several customers
>>who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
>>using it in a laser.

>
>Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
>melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
>not just coated paper or photopaper.
>
>
>> In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
>>suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.

>
>I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
>possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
>with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
>described as suitable for laser printers.
>
>On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
>will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
>more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
>paper that works in both types of printers because that
>opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
>of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
>especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
>higher temp.
>
>
>
>>So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
>>mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
>>the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
>>Tony

>
>Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
>conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
>equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
>the actual facts is excessive.
>
>Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
>use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
>what risk to take, not you or I.


I for one am not telling anybody to do anything. I merely answered a very
reasonable request for information and have provided an opinion.
For what it's worth, and I suspect you will find it worthless, here are some
bits of information.

1. This comes from a public HP document (user guide) for a current printer
"Do not use photo paper that is intended for Inkjet printers.
Do not use paper that is embossed or coated, or any media that produces
hazardous
emissions,
or that melts, offsets, or discolors when exposed to 190C (374F) for 0.1
second.
Also, do not use
letterhead paper that is made with dyes or inks that cannot withstand that
temperature."

This warning is typically present in most if not all HP LaserJet user guides.

2. http://www.okidata.com/mkt/downloads/OKIMediaGuide.pdf see page 12 item
G, OKI and HP seem to agree.

3. http://www.cs.indiana.edu/Facilities...ing/legal.html see the
note on the last page, it seems that the University of Indiana also agrees.

4. http://www.graphic-design.com/DTG/De...er/Laser2.html this seems to
be a business but see the penultimate paragraph.

There are many, many more that admonish people to not use coated papers in
laser printers unless specifically designed for that purpose which is all that
I said. It is unlikely in the extreme that a paper manufacturer would fail to
indicate the suitability of a particular paper for laser printers if indeed
that was the case. Therefore, is it not logical to assume that only paper that
is identified for use in a laser engine (printer or copier) is safe to use?

I don't know where you get your information that "I've never claimed the risk
was nonexistent, yes that is
possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm.". I dispute that absolutely, I
think I can safely say that cooated paper that is not designed for laser
printer use will always in due course cause damageto most laser printers, it is
only a matter of time. It may not happen today but it will happen. And if you
can't accept that, perhaps you can accept that to take even the slightest risk
is stupidity; in many cases the cost of a fuser approches the cost of a
replacement printer. Why would anyone take that risk knowing that the risk
exists. My own experience is that all printer manufacturers will void warranty
if inkjet only coated paper damages a laser printer and I have seen this more
often than I would wish.
Once more, why take the risk when there are alternatives available?

Tony
MS MVP Printing/Imaging


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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Jon Danniken
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

"kony"
[snip]
>
> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
> etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
> many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
> printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
> that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
> wouldn't cause problems).


Hi kony,

If you don't mind me asking, what paper do you get the best results with? I
picked up some of the Staples Glossy Photo Paper for a board last year
(never got around to making it though), and I would be curious to know which
one you use.

Jon



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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 02:40 PM
Arthur Entlich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

Please don't infer to know what the majority of people wish my answering
protocol to be on these newsgroups. I have explained the reasons I top
post numerous times in various groups I post within, and you'll find
them, at the top, intermingled and at the bottom of such previous
requests or comments. Top postings saves me valuable time which allows
me to respond to many more queries. It also saves times for many
readers of my replies.

Set posting positions are an old and outdated protocol, and if you find
how I post more important that the information I provide, then I suggest
you simply filter my posts out, if they are disturbing to you. I get
VERY few complaints from people who care about this, and I actually get
an equal number of people who have told me they prefer top posting in
this type of forum to that of intermingled or bottom posting.

Bottom posting perhaps had it's purpose when computers were slow, text
was big and bulky, and systems and users required more convention. With
today's much more sophisticated email clients and readers, the issue is
almost moot. Also, anyone following a thread will find top posting
considerably faster to read.

It is a bit like sexual positions; different strokes for different
folks, and although there are still many out there who think they should
dictate to the world just what strokes to use, I'm of the school that
they should stick to making those decisions for themselves, in the
bedroom, or kitchen, or hallway, or office desk, or elevator, or...

;-)

Art


CBFalconer wrote:
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>> Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
>> which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
>> art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
>> coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
>> gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.
>>
>> Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
>> they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.

>
> Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
> with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
> irrelevant material. See the following links:
>


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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Arthur Entlich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

I'm sorry, but your statements are the ones that are cavalier and
potentially may cause untold grief for others. Beside the fact that it
is illogical to use costly coated inkjet papers in a laser printer when
much less costly specialized laser papers already exists (semi gloss,
glossy and others using clay based surfaces that can withstand
considerable heat), laser printers use very varied heat ranges in the
fusing process, and since I know of no inkjet papers that are either
commercially tested in laser printers, or that provide a safe heat range
indicated on their product packaging, the risk is real, and completely
without purpose.

Perhaps you can explain to me why you, or anyone would bother to waste
costly inkjet glossy papers by putting them through a laser printer when
papers costing literally one tenth that amount are available
specifically for laser use? I have equivalent laser papers for nearly
every surface type that is available for inkjet printers.

And, although you don't know of inkjet papers that will melt under the
heat of a laser printer, ask anyone who repairs laser printers regularly
about the fuser replacements they have had to make due to someone
running inkjet papers and films through the printer. I have even read a
report of a HP laser paper that melted in a laser, but that is rare.

So unless you are willing to pay the repair bills for every person who
reads your generalized posting if or when their fuser is ruined by the
wrong paper, or unless you are willing to indicate specifically which
papers you successfully use, and also the temperature of the fuser in
your printer, I will stand behind my advice both on simple good policy
grounds as well as logic of not wasting money using costly inkjet paper
in a laser printer when alternatives exist for that printer technology
for less cost.

Art


kony wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:50:20 GMT, Arthur Entlich
> <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
>
>> The risks are hard to reduce unless you specifically mention the exact
>> paper type you use

>
> The risks are only hard to reduce because they're so low
> already. You're acting as though most are a problem when
> it's the opposite. Perhaps it should be left to the user to
> determine what gamble they're willing to take with an
> unknown variable, or test by exposing the paper to heat like
> near a stove burner then checking for excessive softening.
>
>
>> ...and have reasonable results with. One sheet of the
>> wrong paper can make for a very costly repair on the laser printer.

>
>
> True, but that's not quite the same as a blanket statement
> that isn't correct. People can and do use coated paper, so
> perhaps it would be better for you to list specific ones
> that don't work, as it is the minority that would be a
> problem.
>
>
>
>>
>> Many inkjet papers, especially glossy ones, have one or more
>> non-absorption layers, which may be a low melting point plastic.

>
> Whether you mean to or not, by omission in your statement
> you seem to be implying something that is incorrect. The
> vast majority of inkjet papers do not have a low melting
> point plastic layer. The vast majority can go through a
> laser printer fine. The types that are problematic tend to
> be specifically described as to their (type of) plastic
> construction.
>
>
>
>
>
>> As you
>> say, others are safe, but only with specific knowledge is it safe to
>> make a broad statement.

>
> True, and being conservative with someone else's printer is
> a good idea. However, once someone is aware of the
> conservative stance and it then comes down to details, most
> coated papers don't cause a problem. If you know of any (at
> all) that use a low melting point plastic layer and aren't
> clearly described as containing plastic, please list those.


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 03:14 PM
Jan Alter
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?



"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:vf0gv35tbkv6h3sheg4lelcl9pe2nacddm@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich
> <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
>
>>In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT
>>be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high
>>temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the
>>paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit
>>quicker).

>
> You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter
> if most types of inkjet paper get hotter.
>
>
>>
>>Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet
>>and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a
>>better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and
>>laser use.
>>
>>The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use
>>specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and
>>semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may
>>melt under the heat of a laser fuser.

>
>
> It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word
> you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is,
> like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without
> problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't,
> so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect.
>
>>However, even if they do not
>>melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated
>>matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but
>>again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version.

>
> What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does
> not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty
> looking if that is a problem.
>
>
>
>>
>>In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a
>>laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies.
>> Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar
>>types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may
>>cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to
>>$1.50.
>>

>
> Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using
> coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of
> urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have
> insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating
> the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat)
> world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried.



For my own part I try to work on the conservative side when using a laser
printer and don't consider using ANY glossy stock. Kony, perhaps you could
provide this audience a list, or even partial list of glossy papers that
would be acceptable to lasers so that anyone desiring to use such could do
so without any forethought of damage to the printer.
--
Jan Alter
bearpuf@verizon.net
or
jalter@phila.k12.pa.us



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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 03:48 PM
Arthur Entlich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

Kony,

I don't know where you get your information from. I consult with inkjet
paper manufacturers, and I have done considerable inkjet paper testing
over the years.

When it comes to coated paper stocks, the processes used to create
inkjet coated papers are simply not the same as those used to make
coated papers for laser printers. They use different paper structure,
different coatings, different numbers of coats, and differing technologies.

Go into any retail outlet and look at the costs of the packages of
coated specialty inkjet papers and compare them to similar surfaced
papers for laser printers. Do you think that if the papers were
actually the same that people wouldn't have figured that out and started
to successfully use coated laser papers in their inkjet printers and
save 80-90% in doing so for the same results?

As to your last point about papers that work in both to address a larger
market; paper companies, in most cases, would prefer with higher end
papers to make sure they have two distinct target markets and not a
merged one. It sells twice the paper that way, and, as I stated before,
although the mark up may be higher on inkjet paper, it is also much more
costly to manufacture because the technologies involved are more complex.

The only area you will see the merging of inkjet and laser product is in
the low end bond papers, because people burn through it and it is more a
matter of laser paper being acceptable for low end inkjet results than
the other way around. Yes, higher end inkjet designated uncoated bond
paper will work well in laser printers in most cases, but again, you
typically pay extra for features that do not improve the laser result.

Those uncoated papers for inkjets sometimes contain mordants to help
hold the ink better, use a heavier weight and more opaque paper, which
sometimes has more kaolin clay added to accomplish, using a different
mill and calendering process to make the surface less likely to bleed
the ink, or use different fiber lengths, all of minimal importance for
most laser printer results, where the toner is fused to the paper surface.

I normally wouldn't even bother to argue these points with someone who
is speaking just from a narrow experience base, but your potential
misguidance could lead to people unnecessarily damaging their laser
printer for no apparent benefit.

I'm pleased you found an inkjet paper (or several) that will runs well
through the laser printer you use and that it provides you with a very
specialized use for transfering toner to circuitboards as a resist.
People doing that, I assume, trade information to help guide them around
the potential pitfalls, and that's great. Getting back to the OP, he
did not mention the need to make circuit board transfers, and his
question was much more general.

Making broad and potentially hazardous generalizations that can lead
others into a sense of ease when a degree of risk is unnecessarily
involved is irresponsible in public newsgroups.

Lastly, as Tony mentioned, what often will happen is over time small
amounts of residue from the front or back surface of these low
temperature papers will collect on the fuser rollers. Since the transit
time through the fuser is of very short duration, those papers may
indeed "survive" the heating process. Then one day, either as a result
of this small buildup, or just happenstance and the once in a "blue
moon" paper jam, the paper ends up sticking to the fuser, or spending
more time on the fuser than it should, and surprise, the paper surfaces
begin to melt and it either smolders and releases toxic burned plastics
or other volatiles, and or melts onto the fuser ruining it, or both.

I stand by my statements... putting coated inkjet papers through a laser
printer is a bad idea unless you are willing to take the risk of ruining
your printer, or you know of others who have successfully tested it.

Art


kony wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
> <tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
>>> for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
>>> the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
>>> achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>>>
>>> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>>> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>>> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>>> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>>> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>>> etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
>>> many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
>>> printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
>>> that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
>>> wouldn't cause problems).

>> If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either
>> the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.

>
> False. Many, many people do so.
>
>
>> I have several customers
>> who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
>> using it in a laser.

>
> Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
> melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
> not just coated paper or photopaper.
>
>
>> In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
>> suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.

>
> I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
> possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
> with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
> described as suitable for laser printers.
>
> On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
> will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
> more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
> paper that works in both types of printers because that
> opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
> of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
> especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
> higher temp.
>
>
>
>> So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
>> mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
>> the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
>> Tony

>
> Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
> conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
> equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
> the actual facts is excessive.
>
> Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
> use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
> what risk to take, not you or I.
>


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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 04:01 PM
Arthur Entlich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

Although I believe my last response pretty much deals with this whole
ball of wax, I'll just add a few points.

Most gloss and semi-gloss coated inkjet paper run through a laser
printer will eventually lead to problems, such as paper jams or stuck
paper on the fuser, or melted paper on the fuser. It may not happen
immediately, but build up of the melted plastic can and does occur. Not
all coated inkjet papers use plastics, but most glossy papers contain
them or other low temperature coatings.

You seem to be mixing both inkjet and laser coated papers into one
barrel. There are many types of coated papers designed specifically for
laser printer use. You will find single sided semi-gloss and gloss
papers, double sided gloss papers, acetate sheets in color, clear and
opaque forms, clay coated semi-gloss and matte surfaces for laser
printers, etc.

Also, some of the lower end matte coated papers with just a kaolin
surface usually will go through laser printers without difficulty.
These tend to be the very flat/matte surfaces.

I will now leave it to individuals to determine whether they have enough
reason to put inkjet paper through their laser printer or not.

Art



kony wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich
> <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
>
>> In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT
>> be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high
>> temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the
>> paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit
>> quicker).

>
> You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter
> if most types of inkjet paper get hotter.
>
>
>> Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet
>> and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a
>> better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and
>> laser use.
>>
>> The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use
>> specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and
>> semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may
>> melt under the heat of a laser fuser.

>
>
> It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word
> you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is,
> like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without
> problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't,
> so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect.
>
>> However, even if they do not
>> melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated
>> matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but
>> again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version.

>
> What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does
> not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty
> looking if that is a problem.
>
>
>
>> In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a
>> laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies.
>> Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar
>> types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may
>> cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to
>> $1.50.
>>

>
> Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using
> coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of
> urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have
> insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating
> the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat)
> world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried.


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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 04:10 PM
Arthur Entlich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

I just want to state publicly that Tony and I did NOT confer in any
manner on our statements in regard to this issue and we each came to
this discussion independently. Tony has substantially more knowledge
and training and hands on experience than I do, in the area of laser
printers and that technology, and I believe I can safely state that I
have more knowledge of paper formulation and particularly inkjet paper
design and use than he, and yet we both came to the nearly identical
conclusions. Strange psychic power traveling half way around the world
or similar general understanding and knowledge of the principles,...

you decide ;-)


Art

Tony wrote:
> kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
>> <tonythebengaltiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
>>>> for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
>>>> the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
>>>> achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.
>>>>
>>>> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
>>>> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
>>>> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
>>>> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
>>>> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
>>>> etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
>>>> many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
>>>> printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
>>>> that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
>>>> wouldn't cause problems).
>>> If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then
>>> either
>>> the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.

>> False. Many, many people do so.
>>
>>
>>> I have several customers
>>> who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
>>> using it in a laser.

>> Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
>> melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
>> not just coated paper or photopaper.
>>
>>
>>> In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
>>> suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.

>> I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
>> possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
>> with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
>> described as suitable for laser printers.
>>
>> On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
>> will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
>> more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
>> paper that works in both types of printers because that
>> opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
>> of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
>> especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
>> higher temp.
>>
>>
>>
>>> So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
>>> mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
>>> the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
>>> Tony

>> Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
>> conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
>> equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
>> the actual facts is excessive.
>>
>> Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
>> use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
>> what risk to take, not you or I.

>
> I for one am not telling anybody to do anything. I merely answered a very
> reasonable request for information and have provided an opinion.
> For what it's worth, and I suspect you will find it worthless, here are some
> bits of information.
>
> 1. This comes from a public HP document (user guide) for a current printer
> "Do not use photo paper that is intended for Inkjet printers.
> Do not use paper that is embossed or coated, or any media that produces
> hazardous
>
> emissions,
> or that melts, offsets, or discolors when exposed to 190C (374F) for 0.1
> second.
>
> Also, do not use
> letterhead paper that is made with dyes or inks that cannot withstand that
> temperature."
>
> This warning is typically present in most if not all HP LaserJet user guides.
>
> 2. http://www.okidata.com/mkt/downloads/OKIMediaGuide.pdf see page 12 item
> G, OKI and HP seem to agree.
>
> 3. http://www.cs.indiana.edu/Facilities...ing/legal.html see the
> note on the last page, it seems that the University of Indiana also agrees.
>
> 4. http://www.graphic-design.com/DTG/De...er/Laser2.html this seems to
> be a business but see the penultimate paragraph.
>
> There are many, many more that admonish people to not use coated papers in
> laser printers unless specifically designed for that purpose which is all that
> I said. It is unlikely in the extreme that a paper manufacturer would fail to
> indicate the suitability of a particular paper for laser printers if indeed
> that was the case. Therefore, is it not logical to assume that only paper that
> is identified for use in a laser engine (printer or copier) is safe to use?
>
> I don't know where you get your information that "I've never claimed the risk
> was nonexistent, yes that is
> possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm.". I dispute that absolutely, I
> think I can safely say that cooated paper that is not designed for laser
> printer use will always in due course cause damageto most laser printers, it is
> only a matter of time. It may not happen today but it will happen. And if you
> can't accept that, perhaps you can accept that to take even the slightest risk
> is stupidity; in many cases the cost of a fuser approches the cost of a
> replacement printer. Why would anyone take that risk knowing that the risk
> exists. My own experience is that all printer manufacturers will void warranty
> if inkjet only coated paper damages a laser printer and I have seen this more
> often than I would wish.
> Once more, why take the risk when there are alternatives available?
>
> Tony
> MS MVP Printing/Imaging
>


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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 05:17 PM
measekite
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?



Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Please don't infer to know what the majority of people wish my
> answering protocol to be on these newsgroups. I have explained the
> reasons I top post numerous times in various groups I post within, and
> you'll find them, at the top,

holier than thou does what he wants and then rationalizes it.
> intermingled and at the bottom of such previous requests or comments.
> Top postings saves me valuable time which allows me to respond to many
> more queries. It also saves times for many readers of my replies.
>
> Set posting positions are an old and outdated protocol, and if you
> find how I post more important that the information I provide, then I
> suggest you simply filter my posts out, if they are disturbing to
> you. I get VERY few complaints from people who care about this, and I
> actually get an equal number of people who have told me they prefer
> top posting in this type of forum to that of intermingled or bottom
> posting.
>
> Bottom posting perhaps had it's purpose when computers were slow, text
> was big and bulky, and systems and users required more convention.
> With today's much more sophisticated email clients and readers, the
> issue is almost moot. Also, anyone following a thread will find top
> posting considerably faster to read.
>
> It is a bit like sexual positions;

God he even claims to know about those. Maybe he writes a manual on
that too. ha ha ha
> different strokes for different folks, and although there are still
> many out there who think they should dictate to the world just what
> strokes to use, I'm of the school that they should stick to making
> those decisions for themselves, in the bedroom, or kitchen, or
> hallway, or office desk, or elevator, or...
>
> ;-)
>
> Art
>
>
> CBFalconer wrote:
>> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>>> Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
>>> which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
>>> art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
>>> coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
>>> gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.
>>>
>>> Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
>>> they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.

>>
>> Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
>> with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
>> irrelevant material. See the following links:
>>


Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 07:11 PM
Andrew Smallshaw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

On 2008-04-06, Arthur Entlich <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
> Please don't infer to know what the majority of people wish my answering
> protocol to be on these newsgroups. I have explained the reasons I top
> post numerous times in various groups I post within, and you'll find
> them, at the top, intermingled and at the bottom of such previous
> requests or comments. Top postings saves me valuable time which allows
> me to respond to many more queries. It also saves times for many
> readers of my replies.


So it saves _you_ time and that's all that matters. To hell with
everyone else. It wastes everyone's else time because a lengthy
post like this has no context visible on screen. I for one had no
idea what you were referring to until I scrolled down to have a
look and _then_ back up again to reread your comments. But that
doesn't matter because your time is all that matters.

I wish top-posting advocates would shut up and learn the basics of
netiquette. It has evolved over decades and most rules are there
for a reason. By deliberately ignoring them you aren't helping
anyone since your posts are not in the standard form expected by
most readers.

If you continually ignore established rules of etiquette whether
on or off line people are entitled to regard your behaviour as
inappropriate and/or insulting. This is without even considering
the very purpose of quoting previous posts: if it is not providing
context then there is no point in quoting at all.

--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org

Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 07:29 PM
rjn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

Tony <tonythebengalti...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Do not use paper that is embossed or coated, or any media
> that produces hazardous emissions, or that melts, offsets,
> or discolors when exposed to 190C (374F) for 0.1 second.


From this, could we develop a 3-step media home safety check?

1. RTFM

Read the packaging. If it says
"do not use in laser printers", or
"for injet printers only",
Stop.
The media is not suited to laser.

2. Half-Temp Test

Hit the media with the airstream from a hair dryer.
Do this in a location where any surprise results,
like fire or nasty fumes, can be managed.

For extra credit, first check the air temp at the
nozzle with an oven thermometer. It may be in the
vicinity of 200 degrees F, well below fuser temp,
but hot enough to identify really risky polymer-
based, and some coated media. If a second person
is available, have a Q-tip handy for checking the
stability of any coating.

If the media relaxes, shrinks or delaminates when hit
with this air, it is not suitable for laser. If the
coating softens, gets sticky or changes color,
Stop.
The media is unsuited.

3. Full Temp Test

Have a plan for handling fire or hazardous fumes if
this step goes awry. Windows open. Vent fan running.
Extinguisher handy. Wear a respirator.

Ray Bradbury reminds us that typical maximum fuser
temps (which we emulate here) are only 50 degF below
the temp at which normal paper ignites. You really
need a reliable oven thermometer for this, to
minimize fire risk.

Tape a bare wire to the media sample. Don't use
string or thread, as it may melt.

Put a not-too-valuable cooking sheet in your oven
(as in, do not use your pizza stone).
Set the temp to 400 degrees F.
When at that temp ...

Put the media sample on the sheet.
Quickly remove it.
Check the coating for problems as in #2,
and the media generally.

If the media passes these tests, it probably won't
immediately burst into flames, foul the fuser, or kill
you with poisonous fumes. Whether you'll like
the laser printed results is another matter.

Don't try this at home until c.p.p. reaches
consensus on it.

--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 07:48 PM
ray
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

You provide some of the best information on this group, keep it up. I
prefer top posting, no need to scroll down to the bottom of a thread
that I am following.

Thanks

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:40:31 GMT, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:

>Please don't infer to know what the majority of people wish my answering
>protocol to be on these newsgroups. I have explained the reasons I top
>post numerous times in various groups I post within, and you'll find
>them, at the top, intermingled and at the bottom of such previous
>requests or comments. Top postings saves me valuable time which allows
>me to respond to many more queries. It also saves times for many
>readers of my replies.
>
>Set posting positions are an old and outdated protocol, and if you find
>how I post more important that the information I provide, then I suggest
>you simply filter my posts out, if they are disturbing to you. I get
>VERY few complaints from people who care about this, and I actually get
>an equal number of people who have told me they prefer top posting in
>this type of forum to that of intermingled or bottom posting.
>
>Bottom posting perhaps had it's purpose when computers were slow, text
>was big and bulky, and systems and users required more convention. With
>today's much more sophisticated email clients and readers, the issue is
>almost moot. Also, anyone following a thread will find top posting
>considerably faster to read.
>
>It is a bit like sexual positions; different strokes for different
>folks, and although there are still many out there who think they should
>dictate to the world just what strokes to use, I'm of the school that
>they should stick to making those decisions for themselves, in the
>bedroom, or kitchen, or hallway, or office desk, or elevator, or...
>
>;-)
>
>Art
>
>
>CBFalconer wrote:
>> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>>> Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
>>> which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
>>> art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
>>> coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
>>> gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.
>>>
>>> Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
>>> they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.

>>
>> Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
>> with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
>> irrelevant material. See the following links:
>>


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