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Old 09-02-2005, 09:30 PM
George Hester
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Default PSUs Watts and AMPs

I asked about a PSU issue I was having a few weeks ago here. One of my SCSIs wasn't being seen consistently at boot. After a little shopping around I found a 550 W PSU. But as I have become more familar with PSUs and from what I've read here Watts isn't the entire story. What looks also to be just as important is AMPs. The current delivered at startup. PSUs seem to be all over the map here for a given Wattage. Luckily mine is 24 amps and I no longer have my issue. But take a look at this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Enermax-Pentium-...QQcmdZViewItem

You will see this is a 330 W PSU but it is really low in AMPs 12 amps. That sucks right? So my question is should I look at both Watts and Amps with PSUs? In other words 330 W PSU with 12 v 24 amp may be better than a 550 W PSU with 12 v 12 amp? And finally I asked about this once before but I am going to try to be more specifuic. What exactly is the performance benefit if the 12 v is dual? If my PSU gives each device that uses 12 v, 12 v what's the signicance of having dual 12 V? Would that normally have a higher AMP rating?

--
George Hester
_________________________________


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 03:56 AM
kony
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: PSUs Watts and AMPs

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:30:27 GMT, "George Hester"
<hesterloli@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I asked about a PSU issue I was having a few weeks ago here. One of my SCSIs wasn't being seen consistently at boot. After a little shopping around I found a 550 W PSU. But as I have become more familar with PSUs and from what I've read here Watts isn't the entire story. What looks also to be just as important is AMPs. The current delivered at startup. PSUs seem to be all over the map here for a given Wattage.


Most important is accurate ratings, a rating of the PSU's
sustainable current rather than it's peak current.


>Luckily mine is 24 amps and I no longer have my issue. But take a look at this:


Enermax is way better than most generics, but unfortunately
they too overrate a little bit. Check out PCPower&Cooling's
website, they have a brochue that shows a list of why there
PSU is better than "some other", and that "some other" is an
Enermax (they don't come right out and mention that, but
it's easy to recognize from the picture and specs).

>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/Enermax-Pentium-...QQcmdZViewItem
>
>You will see this is a 330 W PSU but it is really low in AMPs 12 amps. That sucks right?


Well, it is rated as a 330W PSU, so that looks about right
_IF_ Enermax had a more conservative rating system. In
other words, if Delta or Sparkle had called it a 330W PSU,
it'd be beefier than that Enermax is. The Enermax in the
link is better than most generic 400W PSU, though.


>So my question is should I look at both Watts and Amps with PSUs? In other words 330 W PSU with 12 v 24 amp may be better than a 550 W PSU with 12 v 12 amp?


First and foremost, you have to either buy one that's
accurately rated, or find out the true output power through
testing, OR guesstimate and buy more watts & amps than you
think you need, hoping it has your needs covered. Obviously
the latter option is the worst, but is the one most kids use
when they buy a generic 300W, find it insufficient, then buy
a cheap 500W, finding that it works so they conclude a
system like theirs "needs" 500W... when all it really needed
was something a little under what that pseudo-500W generic
can actually output, so long as we dont' consider how long
the generic will or won't work, or any other shortcomings
from many generics.

Typically a system loads one of the power rails the most-
used to be 5V, but now most often 12V rail. Items such as
CPU, video card, and hard drives (assuming you have nothing
exotic like Peltier cooling devices) use the majority of
that 12V power. An older system or one with a slower
Celeron or Pentium-M and only a couple hard drives, a meager
video card, could get by with 12A of "accurate" power from a
PSU. Getting by is not as good as some extra margin though,
so typically a target of around 18A 12V power is useful, or
a little higher for a very well endowed system. Since the
typical PSU has correspondingly higher 5V amperage as 12V
amperage rating rises, that shouldn't be an issue on such
systems consuming most power from the 12V rail.


>And finally I asked about this once before but I am going to try to be more specifuic. What exactly is the performance benefit if the 12 v is dual? If my PSU gives each device that uses 12 v, 12 v what's the signicance of having dual 12 V?


It isolates each "rail" a little bit, causes lesser
fluctuations on one when the load changes on the other.


>Would that normally have a higher AMP rating?


No, not for the (same otherwise) build quality and capacity.
Usually when a PSU has dual rails, it is built like a
single-rail supply, only one 12v rail. Then just prior to
the wiring harness, there are a pair of low-ohm resistors
separating each 12V rail. That isolates them more, but you
have a lower limit of total power on either rail. If a PSU
has plenty of reserve power, it can be more useful, but if
the PSU is marginal the benefits may be outweighed by having
more current potential with the single rail design.
Although advertised as a "feature", anyone competent to open
and modify their own single-rail supply could do so and have
same result.

Ultimately the final test is whether the voltage is correct
with regards to amperage- a supply with insufficient
capacity will start dropping one rail or rasing the other
(as it compensates). Voltage at the connector plugged into
the load(s) should be within +-5% of the spec'd voltage, and
5% off is a little less than ideal, a psu well matched to a
system is generally a little more accurate than that.


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 04:19 AM
George Hester
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: PSUs Watts and AMPs

"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:q73ih19ctq15nbfr6vie1pvqs7nhuiis2d@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:30:27 GMT, "George Hester"
> <hesterloli@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

<snip>.
>


I think evrything I ever needed to know. Thanks kony till next time. Takes
a little while for it all to sink in.

--
George Hester
_________________________________


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:21 AM
larry moe 'n curly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: PSUs Watts and AMPs


George Hester wrote:
> One of my SCSIs wasn't being seen consistently at boot.
> After a little shopping around I found a 550 W PSU. But
> as I have become more familar with PSUs and from what
> I've read here Watts isn't the entire story. What looks
> also to be just as important is AMPs. The current
> delivered at startup. PSUs seem to be all over the map
> here for a given Wattage. Luckily mine is 24 amps and I
> no longer have my issue. But take a look at this:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Enermax-Pentium-...QQcmdZViewItem
>
> You will see this is a 330 W PSU but it is really low in
> AMPs 12 amps. That sucks right? So my question is should I
> look at both Watts and Amps with PSUs? In other words 330 W
> PSU with 12 v 24 amp may be better than a 550 W PSU with
> 12 v 12 amp?


That 330W Enermax seems to be made for older style mobos that draw lots
of amps from the +5.0V rail because the CPU voltage regulator runs from
it. C'T magazine once measured an Athlon XP2400+ system like this as
drawing 18A @ +5.0V, 15A @ +3.3V, and 2A @ +12V. In comparison, a mobo
that used +12V for CPU power (i.e., has a second 4-pin power connector)
drew 3.2A @ +5.0V, 9A @ +12V, and 10A @ +3.3V. So I wouldn't use that
particular model 330W Enermax for the latter type of system.

> What exactly is the performance benefit if the 12 v is dual?


In case of a severe short, possibly a smaller fire or puddle of molten
plastic? :(

I think that dual rail +12V design's only purpose is to meet a safety
requirement to keep the maximum volts x amps (sort of like watts) draw
from the wall outlet below 240VA in case of a short in the computer.
It offers no performance benefit but is absolutely necessary for
keeping up with the latest fashion trends. Normally, one +12V rail is
for the mobo and maybe the graphics card (if it has its own power
connector), the other +12V rail for the disk drives.


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2005, 08:46 PM
Analabha Roy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: PSUs Watts and AMPs

My SCSI hdd is a Seagate Cheetah ST336607. According to the product manual
(P 31 at http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/...00195486a.pdf),
peak operating current is 0.71 Amps for 12 V. Assuming that this is
representative of SCSI hard drives, that should be small enough for a PSU
to support. Of course, we'll probably have to take into account the fact
that the hard drive should be connected to the PSU w/out any current
divides/etc along the way, and no more then 1 other device (assuming the
PSU's DUAL 12V) takes on that much voltage at peak etc. If you see p35 of
the manual, there is a graph of current profile for 5v/12v, and the DC
average doesn't seem to go over 2 amps, so it seems that the PSU should be
able to handle it.



kony wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:30:27 GMT, "George Hester"
> <hesterloli@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I asked about a PSU issue I was having a few weeks ago here. One of my
>>SCSIs wasn't being seen consistently at boot. After a little shopping
>>around I found a 550 W PSU. But as I have become more familar with PSUs
>>and from what I've read here Watts isn't the entire story. What looks
>>also to be just as important is AMPs. The current delivered at startup.
>>PSUs seem to be all over the map here for a given Wattage.

>
> Most important is accurate ratings, a rating of the PSU's
> sustainable current rather than it's peak current.
>
>
>>Luckily mine is 24 amps and I no longer have my issue. But take a look at
>>this:

>
> Enermax is way better than most generics, but unfortunately
> they too overrate a little bit. Check out PCPower&Cooling's
> website, they have a brochue that shows a list of why there
> PSU is better than "some other", and that "some other" is an
> Enermax (they don't come right out and mention that, but
> it's easy to recognize from the picture and specs).
>
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/Enermax-Pentium-...QQcmdZViewItem
>>
>>You will see this is a 330 W PSU but it is really low in AMPs 12 amps.
>>That sucks right?

>
> Well, it is rated as a 330W PSU, so that looks about right
> _IF_ Enermax had a more conservative rating system. In
> other words, if Delta or Sparkle had called it a 330W PSU,
> it'd be beefier than that Enermax is. The Enermax in the
> link is better than most generic 400W PSU, though.
>
>
>>So my question is should I look at both Watts and Amps with PSUs? In
>>other words 330 W PSU with 12 v 24 amp may be better than a 550 W PSU with
>>12 v 12 amp?

>
> First and foremost, you have to either buy one that's
> accurately rated, or find out the true output power through
> testing, OR guesstimate and buy more watts & amps than you
> think you need, hoping it has your needs covered. Obviously
> the latter option is the worst, but is the one most kids use
> when they buy a generic 300W, find it insufficient, then buy
> a cheap 500W, finding that it works so they conclude a
> system like theirs "needs" 500W... when all it really needed
> was something a little under what that pseudo-500W generic
> can actually output, so long as we dont' consider how long
> the generic will or won't work, or any other shortcomings
> from many generics.
>
> Typically a system loads one of the power rails the most-
> used to be 5V, but now most often 12V rail. Items such as
> CPU, video card, and hard drives (assuming you have nothing
> exotic like Peltier cooling devices) use the majority of
> that 12V power. An older system or one with a slower
> Celeron or Pentium-M and only a couple hard drives, a meager
> video card, could get by with 12A of "accurate" power from a
> PSU. Getting by is not as good as some extra margin though,
> so typically a target of around 18A 12V power is useful, or
> a little higher for a very well endowed system. Since the
> typical PSU has correspondingly higher 5V amperage as 12V
> amperage rating rises, that shouldn't be an issue on such
> systems consuming most power from the 12V rail.
>
>
>>And finally I asked about this once before but I am going to try to be
>>more specifuic. What exactly is the performance benefit if the 12 v is
>>dual? If my PSU gives each device that uses 12 v, 12 v what's the
>>signicance of having dual 12 V?

>
> It isolates each "rail" a little bit, causes lesser
> fluctuations on one when the load changes on the other.
>
>
>>Would that normally have a higher AMP rating?

>
> No, not for the (same otherwise) build quality and capacity.
> Usually when a PSU has dual rails, it is built like a
> single-rail supply, only one 12v rail. Then just prior to
> the wiring harness, there are a pair of low-ohm resistors
> separating each 12V rail. That isolates them more, but you
> have a lower limit of total power on either rail. If a PSU
> has plenty of reserve power, it can be more useful, but if
> the PSU is marginal the benefits may be outweighed by having
> more current potential with the single rail design.
> Although advertised as a "feature", anyone competent to open
> and modify their own single-rail supply could do so and have
> same result.
>
> Ultimately the final test is whether the voltage is correct
> with regards to amperage- a supply with insufficient
> capacity will start dropping one rail or rasing the other
> (as it compensates). Voltage at the connector plugged into
> the load(s) should be within +-5% of the spec'd voltage, and
> 5% off is a little less than ideal, a psu well matched to a
> system is generally a little more accurate than that.



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