> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components
> that I used to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
>...
> Silent Gaming Review
>...
Why don't you at least include a summary here instead of a simple
reference to your commercial web site.
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ZkBe.10031$aY6.3718@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components that I used
> to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>
> Silent Gaming Review
> http://silentgamingreview.com
>
Hmmm...nice. I am going to go for a "silent" computer on my next build.
I'm still tossing around the idea of using a water cooling system, but it
limits you somewhat, and takes a little more maintenance... Anyone else
here using either?
"Beall" <k.beallNOSPAM@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:VurBe.152487$_o.130008@attbi_s71...
>
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2ZkBe.10031$aY6.3718@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
>> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components that I
>> used to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
>> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>>
>> Silent Gaming Review
>> http://silentgamingreview.com
>>
>
> Hmmm...nice. I am going to go for a "silent" computer on my next build.
> I'm still tossing around the idea of using a water cooling system, but it
> limits you somewhat, and takes a little more maintenance... Anyone else
> here using either?
>
From what I've researched water cooling is the way to go for silent
operation and/or overclocking. If you get a nice sized case you can fit all
of your components inside or attached to the case. The setup can be a pain
for the inexperienced and the initial cost is of course much higher than an
air cooled solution. Once you get it up and running there shouldn't be that
much maintenance though (as long as you're not constantly lugging it to LAN
parties).
--
"I don't cheat to survive. I cheat to LIVE!!"
- Alceryes
> Why don't you at least include a summary here instead of a simple
> reference to your commercial web site.
Come on, dude! Where do you see me selling anything. just got stoked on
helping people do what I did and got a domain for the hell of it
no ads no promotions nothing to buy or sell http://www.silentgamingreview.com
What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
First it will fry the components.
Second, the water will heat up, expand and blow apart the weekest link so
you'll get a couple of sprinklers inside of a case in no time
I read somewhere that the expansion can be fixed by adding an overflow water
tank. Anyone knows anything about it?
I am getting ready to build a dual core rig and still agonizing about the
cooling
Might go with the latest passive radiator from Zalman just for kicks
> From what I've researched water cooling is the way to go for silent
> operation and/or overclocking. If you get a nice sized case you can fit
> all of your components inside or attached to the case. The setup can be a
> pain for the inexperienced and the initial cost is of course much higher
> than an air cooled solution. Once you get it up and running there
> shouldn't be that much maintenance though (as long as you're not
> constantly lugging it to LAN parties).
> --
>
>
> "I don't cheat to survive. I cheat to LIVE!!"
> - Alceryes
>
>
>
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>First it will fry the components.
If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
are essential for unattended operation.
>Second, the water will heat up, expand and blow apart the weekest link so
>you'll get a couple of sprinklers inside of a case in no time
>I read somewhere that the expansion can be fixed by adding an overflow water
>tank. Anyone knows anything about it?
Don't worry too much about water expanding... :-)
But *do* be concerned about the potential for leaks, because the
chances are fairly high.
Which is to say, I would *not* water cool a critical system
unless there is a standby system ready to replace it in the case
of failure. Hence, if it would take a week to get your system
back in operation if this particular box was totally destroyed,
don't water cool this particular box! If you have two computers
and can live without one for a few days or weeks, go for it.
>I am getting ready to build a dual core rig and still agonizing about the
>cooling
>Might go with the latest passive radiator from Zalman just for kicks
>
>http://www.silentgamingreview.com
>
>> From what I've researched water cooling is the way to go for silent
>> operation and/or overclocking. If you get a nice sized case you can fit
>> all of your components inside or attached to the case. The setup can be a
>> pain for the inexperienced and the initial cost is of course much higher
>> than an air cooled solution. Once you get it up and running there
>> shouldn't be that much maintenance though (as long as you're not
>> constantly lugging it to LAN parties).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Yes, I would have to agree. As tempting as watercooling sounds it seems
still immature to trust your only rig to it.
On the other hand the heat produced by components keeps going up.
I have an overclocked 6800GT cooled passively with an external radiator but
I want to try a 7800 in the new computer and have my doubts
add to that 500W PSU, the dual core CPU which puts out more heat than my
current 3400+.
add two 10000rpm HD's for the raid and you'll be able to fry eggs inside =)
"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:874qax4dsm.fld@barrow.com...
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>>First it will fry the components.
>
> If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
> meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
> below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
> are essential for unattended operation.
>
>>Second, the water will heat up, expand and blow apart the weekest link so
>>you'll get a couple of sprinklers inside of a case in no time
>>I read somewhere that the expansion can be fixed by adding an overflow
>>water
>>tank. Anyone knows anything about it?
>
> Don't worry too much about water expanding... :-)
>
> But *do* be concerned about the potential for leaks, because the
> chances are fairly high.
>
> Which is to say, I would *not* water cool a critical system
> unless there is a standby system ready to replace it in the case
> of failure. Hence, if it would take a week to get your system
> back in operation if this particular box was totally destroyed,
> don't water cool this particular box! If you have two computers
> and can live without one for a few days or weeks, go for it.
>
>>I am getting ready to build a dual core rig and still agonizing about the
>>cooling
>>Might go with the latest passive radiator from Zalman just for kicks
>>
>>http://www.silentgamingreview.com
>>
>>> From what I've researched water cooling is the way to go for silent
>>> operation and/or overclocking. If you get a nice sized case you can fit
>>> all of your components inside or attached to the case. The setup can be
>>> a
>>> pain for the inexperienced and the initial cost is of course much higher
>>> than an air cooled solution. Once you get it up and running there
>>> shouldn't be that much maintenance though (as long as you're not
>>> constantly lugging it to LAN parties).
>
> --
> Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
"Jamie" <jamieivany@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:oTvBe.61081$Ph4.1830027@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> how come nobody mentions phase cooling?
>
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Yes, I would have to agree. As tempting as watercooling sounds it seems
>still immature to trust your only rig to it.
>On the other hand the heat produced by components keeps going up.
>I have an overclocked 6800GT cooled passively with an external radiator but
>I want to try a 7800 in the new computer and have my doubts
>add to that 500W PSU, the dual core CPU which puts out more heat than my
>current 3400+.
>add two 10000rpm HD's for the raid and you'll be able to fry eggs inside =)
Besides, water cooling (if the risks can be handled) is just
plain *fun*.
>"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
>news:874qax4dsm.fld@barrow.com...
>> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>>>First it will fry the components.
>>
>> If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
>> meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
>> below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
>> are essential for unattended operation.
>>
>>>Second, the water will heat up, expand and blow apart the weekest link so
>>>you'll get a couple of sprinklers inside of a case in no time
>>>I read somewhere that the expansion can be fixed by adding an overflow
>>>water
>>>tank. Anyone knows anything about it?
>>
>> Don't worry too much about water expanding... :-)
>>
>> But *do* be concerned about the potential for leaks, because the
>> chances are fairly high.
>>
>> Which is to say, I would *not* water cool a critical system
>> unless there is a standby system ready to replace it in the case
>> of failure. Hence, if it would take a week to get your system
>> back in operation if this particular box was totally destroyed,
>> don't water cool this particular box! If you have two computers
>> and can live without one for a few days or weeks, go for it.
>>
>>>I am getting ready to build a dual core rig and still agonizing about the
>>>cooling
>>>Might go with the latest passive radiator from Zalman just for kicks
>>>
>>>http://www.silentgamingreview.com
>>>
>>>> From what I've researched water cooling is the way to go for silent
>>>> operation and/or overclocking. If you get a nice sized case you can fit
>>>> all of your components inside or attached to the case. The setup can be
>>>> a
>>>> pain for the inexperienced and the initial cost is of course much higher
>>>> than an air cooled solution. Once you get it up and running there
>>>> shouldn't be that much maintenance though (as long as you're not
>>>> constantly lugging it to LAN parties).
>>
>> --
>> Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
>> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:18:01 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
L. Davidson) wrote:
>"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>>First it will fry the components.
>
>If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
>meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
>below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
>are essential for unattended operation.
No, again the best solution is to actively monitor the
actual part(s) in jeopardy. This not being a
enterprise-class, nor enterprise budget system (as far as we
know) there will typically not be an enterprise class budget
for precision flow metering and feedback. It is additional
complexity that would be implemented while unproven at great
cost and no certain benefit over already proven solutions
for a PC.
In other words, the same essential mechanism, actual
component temp monitoring, is monitoring the only parameter
that really matters. Water does not get damaged if IT stops
flowing, we only care about the effect and can measure that
effect quite a bit less expensively and just as reliably,
and at greater precision unless there is an extreme budget
and tons of testing and refinements. That's simply not cost
or time effective even if it did work as well.
Ok, regarding water cooling, do the pumps get noisy with time?
There was all this whining about Zalman pumps lately. Anyone with long term
experience?
Basically, my main concern is long term performance. The fans last a very
long time without much degradation (if the dust is removed)
Now how about the pipes (probably ok - is thermal liquid corrosive?) and the
pump?
Then the noise of the pump.
I had a water fountain and the pump was clearly audible. Don't know if that
has to do with the noise being carried through the whole water system http://www.silentgamingreview.com
"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:87vf3d2w7n.fld@barrow.com...
> "Jamie" <jamieivany@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>how come nobody mentions phase cooling?
>
> 1) Money.
>
> 2) Complexity.
>
> 3) Lack of benefit.
>
> Essentially you can have just as much fun and have just as
> effective a cooling system, for a lot less money and effort, by
> using liquid cooling.
>
> --
> Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Im rebuilding my box now and looking into the cooling systems. I was
looking at that heatsink you got, hows it working out? What temps you
getting from the cpu?
Also, I see you have a few fat fans and a load of hardware in there,
that cant be good for the thermodynamics surely ?
--
Nullcode
"Suffering is a result of desire"
bnVsbGNvZGVAbnVsbGNvZGUuY29t www.hidemyemail.net
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Ok, regarding water cooling, do the pumps get noisy with time?
They *start* that way!
>There was all this whining about Zalman pumps lately. Anyone with long term
>experience?
I don't know, I use an Eheim 1260, which is significantly larger
that most systems need.
Of various commercial systems that I've delt with, pumps only
started making *different* noise when something was going wrong.
Bad bearings, no liquid, high pressure, etc cause changes in the
noise.
>Basically, my main concern is long term performance. The fans last a very
>long time without much degradation (if the dust is removed)
Pumps and fans both vary in quality. I don't really know much
about pumps, and selected mine based on ratings required and the
reputation of the manufacturer. There weren't that many to
choose from.
With fans there are many many choices. Things like ball
vs. sleeve bearings are important, but another not well known
difference is how they are mounted. If the shaft is horizontal,
they will last longer. But if the air flow has to be vertical,
it makes a *huge* difference which way the fan is oriented. If
the blades are below the motor, the bearings will wear out
faster on most fans (*significantly* faster). Hence it is
important, if that is the mounting required, to get a fan that
blows air in the right direction when *properly* mounted.
Otherwise it will likely fail in less than two years rather than
working for the next decade or so.
>Now how about the pipes (probably ok - is thermal liquid corrosive?) and the
>pump?
Plastic tubing comes in different types, and some will
definitely last longer than others. The liquid isn't corrosive.
>Then the noise of the pump.
>I had a water fountain and the pump was clearly audible. Don't know if that
>has to do with the noise being carried through the whole water system
Probably.
I made no effort to mount everything inside a computer case, and
was far more interested in the mechanism than in the resulting
computer as such. That meant I could try various things to see
what the effect was, and certainly there are differences in how
one can mount a pump to prevent noise. Submersed vs
non-submersed, shock mounted, enclosed in a padded box,
etc. etc.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:18:01 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
>L. Davidson) wrote:
>
>>"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>>>First it will fry the components.
>>
>>If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
>>meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
>>below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
>>are essential for unattended operation.
>
>No, again the best solution is to actively monitor the
>actual part(s) in jeopardy.
All of them?
>This not being a
>enterprise-class, nor enterprise budget system (as far as we
>know) there will typically not be an enterprise class budget
>for precision flow metering and feedback. It is additional
>complexity that would be implemented while unproven at great
>cost and no certain benefit over already proven solutions
>for a PC.
Monitoring coolant flow in one location is an "enterprise-class"
item, while monitoring every part that is heat sensitive is a
low budget option?
>In other words, the same essential mechanism, actual
>component temp monitoring, is monitoring the only parameter
>that really matters. Water does not get damaged if IT stops
>flowing, we only care about the effect and can measure that
>effect quite a bit less expensively and just as reliably,
>and at greater precision unless there is an extreme budget
>and tons of testing and refinements. That's simply not cost
>or time effective even if it did work as well.
You don't seem to have just a whole lot of experience with this
kind of stuff.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
MD Athlon 64 3400+/1Gb Mem/ NVIDIA 6800GT 256Mb Idle - 1000Mhz Game
Mode - 2200Mhs
Sonic Tower without additional fans 49C 71+C (test aborted)
Sonic Tower with one additional fan (between the sonic towers) 38C 50C
Sonic Tower with two additional fans (recommended) 35C 46C
The fans are fat but they move a lot of air quietly .
I would be interested to know how my setup compares to Typhoon cooler from
Thermaltake.
Mine is more flexible though. Keep in mind that I can actually turn all the
fans off except the two case fans when I am not gaming.
In reality I keep one fan closer to the front of the case on (25% power)
probably 7v or so and I can play Half-Life 2 no problem.
Right now the place is at 80f the cpu is at 40c with one fan at a quarter
power
"Nullcode" <dev@null> wrote in message
news:mq6dnfMhn7pONUvfRVnyvA@pipex.net...
> stormrider wrote:
>> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components that I
>> used to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
>> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>>
>> Silent Gaming Review
>> http://silentgamingreview.com
>>
>>
>
> Im rebuilding my box now and looking into the cooling systems. I was
> looking at that heatsink you got, hows it working out? What temps you
> getting from the cpu?
> Also, I see you have a few fat fans and a load of hardware in there, that
> cant be good for the thermodynamics surely ?
>
> --
> Nullcode
> "Suffering is a result of desire"
> bnVsbGNvZGVAbnVsbGNvZGUuY29t
> www.hidemyemail.net
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ZkBe.10031$aY6.3718@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components that I
> used to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
The problem with the huge and heavy Thermaltake Sonic Tower CL-P0071,
and others like it, is that they far exceed the recommended weight limit
for the CPU socket lugs. This heatsink is more than twice that maximum.
You may end up with broken lugs after awhile (unless you orient the
motherboard horizontally in a desktop case rather than vertically in a
[mini-]tower case). You *definitely* need to remove the overweight
heatsink before transporting the computer.
My highest priority is noise actually, so pump noise a major concern.
But I agree - it's very cool and I might do it just to do it, although
playing with airflow can be fun too. I had so much fun I fried one
motherboard trying to mount a fan (accidently moved the cpu, I guess) - was
too lazy to turn the system off
"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:87mzop2r4z.fld@barrow.com...
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Ok, regarding water cooling, do the pumps get noisy with time?
>
> They *start* that way!
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>My highest priority is noise actually, so pump noise a major concern.
>But I agree - it's very cool and I might do it just to do it, although
>playing with airflow can be fun too. I had so much fun I fried one
>motherboard trying to mount a fan (accidently moved the cpu, I guess) - was
>too lazy to turn the system off
You've got a great setup for having *fun* too. Being able to
actually watch the results, and adjust fan speed etc while
getting actual feedback on results is great.
I'm more into software than hardware these days, so the
Crystalfontz unit suits my needs; but for anyone who doesn't
want to do the software a manual controller like you are using
is the equivalent as far as fun goes.
Can you post a URL to a product info sheet or something similar
for the units you've got? Might be interesting...
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
This is a listing by component - there are full model names etc. No product
sheets but you could google it
I would do the software, but I could not find anything that can turn the
fans completely off.
"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:87eka12pve.fld@barrow.com...
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>My highest priority is noise actually, so pump noise a major concern.
>>But I agree - it's very cool and I might do it just to do it, although
>>playing with airflow can be fun too. I had so much fun I fried one
>>motherboard trying to mount a fan (accidently moved the cpu, I guess) -
>>was
>>too lazy to turn the system off
>
> You've got a great setup for having *fun* too. Being able to
> actually watch the results, and adjust fan speed etc while
> getting actual feedback on results is great.
>
> I'm more into software than hardware these days, so the
> Crystalfontz unit suits my needs; but for anyone who doesn't
> want to do the software a manual controller like you are using
> is the equivalent as far as fun goes.
>
> Can you post a URL to a product info sheet or something similar
> for the units you've got? Might be interesting...
>
> --
> Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
I thought about that but I think the recommended weight limit is way too
concervative. There is a metal plate behind the socket that is distributing
the stress.
I lug my computer around without mercy and tower is mounted horizontally
with additional weight of two aluminum fans and a heat sync (the heat synch
is very light on it's own) Check this out: http://silentgamingreview.com/images...ter%20fan2.jpg (computer lying
on its side) http://silentgamingreview.com/images...ter%20fan1.jpg
So far no problems. I think it's a non-issue in this case. If you really
want to be safe, just put the computer horizontally making the tower
vertical
"Vanguard" <Vangu@rd.invalid> wrote in message
news:GPSdnYKBKI1sM0vfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2ZkBe.10031$aY6.3718@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
>> if anyone is curious I documented all the steps and components that I
>> used to build a silent air cooled pc for games:
>> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>
>
> The problem with the huge and heavy Thermaltake Sonic Tower CL-P0071, and
> others like it, is that they far exceed the recommended weight limit for
> the CPU socket lugs. This heatsink is more than twice that maximum. You
> may end up with broken lugs after awhile (unless you orient the
> motherboard horizontally in a desktop case rather than vertically in a
> [mini-]tower case). You *definitely* need to remove the overweight
> heatsink before transporting the computer.
>
>This is a listing by component - there are full model names
>etc. No product sheets but you could google it
Turns out that it isn't easy to find information on anything from
Vantec Nexus. Here's the best review that I could find, as far
as giving at least a few specs. But it is still very unclear as
to what it can actually do.
>I would do the software, but I could not find anything that can
>turn the fans completely off.
The Crystalfontz CF633 can turn the fans off. It can also
measure their speed while not running at full throttle too,
which is tricky when they are controlled with PWM.
The CF633 is far more versatile, but it is *totally* under
software control. Hence it can either be used with available
software, to whatever degree that happens to fit needs, or
custom software has to be written. I use Linux and custom
software, so I'm not at all sure what the various Windows
software packages will do.
The NXP-301 and NXP-305 are totally manual, which is perfect
non-programmers who shut their computers off when they aren't
sitting at the console. They also include a lot of purely
snazzy stuff for eye appeal (light controllers!).
Hence a CF633 is much more likely to end up in a server or an
engineering model, while the NXP-305 is more appealing for a
"consumer" system.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:87ackp2n8a.fld@barrow.com...
> "stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>
>>This is a listing by component - there are full model names
>>etc. No product sheets but you could google it
>
> Turns out that it isn't easy to find information on anything from
> Vantec Nexus. Here's the best review that I could find, as far
> as giving at least a few specs. But it is still very unclear as
> to what it can actually do.
>
> http://silentgamingreview.com/components.htm
>
>>I would do the software, but I could not find anything that can
>>turn the fans completely off.
>
> The Crystalfontz CF633 can turn the fans off. It can also
> measure their speed while not running at full throttle too,
> which is tricky when they are controlled with PWM.
>
> The CF633 is far more versatile, but it is *totally* under
> software control. Hence it can either be used with available
> software, to whatever degree that happens to fit needs, or
> custom software has to be written. I use Linux and custom
> software, so I'm not at all sure what the various Windows
> software packages will do.
>
> The NXP-301 and NXP-305 are totally manual, which is perfect
> non-programmers who shut their computers off when they aren't
> sitting at the console. They also include a lot of purely
> snazzy stuff for eye appeal (light controllers!).
>
> Hence a CF633 is much more likely to end up in a server or an
> engineering model, while the NXP-305 is more appealing for a
> "consumer" system.
>
> --
> Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>CF633 looks awesome! I am gonna get me on these!
I have to warn you though, the price is almost exactly *twice*
what they say it is!
Yep. That's cause as soon as you get one and put it into
service actually doing something... you can't play with it any
more and the only solution is to buy another one just to play
with.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:20:46 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
L. Davidson) wrote:
>kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:18:01 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
>>L. Davidson) wrote:
>>
>>>"stormrider" <oceanwind42@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>What do you think about the pump stopping, though.
>>>>First it will fry the components.
>>>
>>>If there are components that will fry with no flow, then a flow
>>>meter of some kind that will positively indicate that flow is
>>>below a certain amount, and a mechanism to shutdown the system,
>>>are essential for unattended operation.
>>
>>No, again the best solution is to actively monitor the
>>actual part(s) in jeopardy.
>
>All of them?
How many parts do you expect to be water-cooled? It's
usually not but a handful if more than 2. Plus, once one
has a single one actively monitored, it is not such an issue
using same monitoring technology for another.
>
>>This not being a
>>enterprise-class, nor enterprise budget system (as far as we
>>know) there will typically not be an enterprise class budget
>>for precision flow metering and feedback. It is additional
>>complexity that would be implemented while unproven at great
>>cost and no certain benefit over already proven solutions
>>for a PC.
>
>Monitoring coolant flow in one location is an "enterprise-class"
>item, while monitoring every part that is heat sensitive is a
>low budget option?
Yes. You are proposing a "from scrach" solution that will
require more expensive parts, engineering to construct and
testing to validate. Show us a ready-to-use affordable,
small, suitable, etc, solution. Even a good theory on how
to do something must be weighted against the actual
implementation burden.
>
>>In other words, the same essential mechanism, actual
>>component temp monitoring, is monitoring the only parameter
>>that really matters. Water does not get damaged if IT stops
>>flowing, we only care about the effect and can measure that
>>effect quite a bit less expensively and just as reliably,
>>and at greater precision unless there is an extreme budget
>>and tons of testing and refinements. That's simply not cost
>>or time effective even if it did work as well.
>
>You don't seem to have just a whole lot of experience with this
>kind of stuff.
That's funny.
SHOW US this grand concept you have- on water-cooled PC
class systems in actual commercial PC use. Show us sytems
that only use component thermal feedback control that failed
because of lack of your (implied necessary) water flow
sensor idea.
In short, provide any evidence that what you claim is
necessary, is, OR that it could even be implemented in a
timely or cost-effective manner. Plenty of water-cooled
systems out there are running using reasonable protection
that doesn't include your theoretically necessary control,
which I still contend is inferior to thermal feedback from
the cooled parts.
You still have not provided any reason/theory, let alone
evidence, that the thermal state of the cooling liquid is a
better control for the thermal state of the cooled
component, than consideration of the thermal state of that
component itself. On the contrary, we really DON"T CARE
what temp the water is nor how fast it's flowing so long as
the components stay cool. On the contrary, since the
system needs a mimal level of airflow either way, a system
with utmost noise reduction would turn off the water pump
completely if flow rate wasn't easily adjustable, IF the
thermals allowed it.
I've not suggested that option for one of the several
reasons your theory isn't practical- that requires
engineering of the solution and testing before being
considered reliable. Which year is it considered reliable?
It's being considered for use NOW, not after beta testing
and refinements at additional cost.
Different systems have different requirements. Some
distinctly different (non-PC, even non-computer) system's
use of water does not make that system-specific solution
applicable to water-cooling-at large.
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:20:46 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
>L. Davidson) wrote:
>>>
>>>No, again the best solution is to actively monitor the
>>>actual part(s) in jeopardy.
>>
>>All of them?
>
>How many parts do you expect to be water-cooled? It's
>usually not but a handful if more than 2. Plus, once one
>has a single one actively monitored, it is not such an issue
>using same monitoring technology for another.
Your statement was only regarding those items that a lack of
cooling will affect, which now you are attempting to limit to
only the items that are "water-cooled", but in fact it is far
more serious than that. *Everything* in the case is "in
jeopardy", not just those parts that are water cooled. The
entire system has to be monitored according to your concept!
Lets just consider one item... the difference between having a
coolant flow meter on the return entry to the surge tank, and
doing it your way. I'll limit it to that because this one item
is more significant than all of what you believe must be done.
Eventually one of the things that happens with liquid cooling
systems is that they leak. Hoses pop off, fittings break,
something slits, whatever... if we have a flow meter where it
should be, the *immediate* effect is to shut the system down.
Or... if the hose exiting the water block has broken and we
wait until the cpu gets hot... the entire surge tank will be
pumped dry, and all of that coolant will be sprayed into the
case before the cpu even begins to get warmer... Then, in about
2 seconds, the cpu is going to go from fully cooled to *no*
cooling, and may or may not actually shutdown before it fries
(depending on the cpu).
It isn't an "enterprise-class" item, it's simply good engineering
and cheap insurance compared to the price of everything else
inside the case. But, you are right that in an el cheapo,
disposable system, it isn't absolutely necessary. (But, is any
system that you've invest enough to put water cooling in still
what could be called "el cheapo, disposable"???)
>>>This not being a
>>>enterprise-class, nor enterprise budget system (as far as we
>>>know) there will typically not be an enterprise class budget
>>>for precision flow metering and feedback. It is additional
>>>complexity that would be implemented while unproven at great
>>>cost and no certain benefit over already proven solutions
>>>for a PC.
>>
>>Monitoring coolant flow in one location is an "enterprise-class"
>>item, while monitoring every part that is heat sensitive is a
>>low budget option?
>
>Yes. You are proposing a "from scrach" solution that will
I'm suggesting that if a person wants to engineer their own
system, that is exactly what they need to do. Do you really
think pre-engineered systems were *not* monitored to prove the
design? Once proven, they sell it minus all the metering.
Not metering to prove the design is just simply *piss* *poor*
*engineering*.
>require more expensive parts, engineering to construct and
>testing to validate. Show us a ready-to-use affordable,
>small, suitable, etc, solution. Even a good theory on how
>to do something must be weighted against the actual
>implementation burden.
The "ready-to-use" comes *after* the engineering model is
evaluated, not before. These home designed one of a kind
systems are *not* "ready-to-use". (Just *look* at the designs
that have been mentioned here as possible first attempts!)
>>You don't seem to have just a whole lot of experience with this
>>kind of stuff.
>
>That's funny.
Yes, I'll grant that some of your statements have been a bit
hilarious.
>SHOW US this grand concept you have- on water-cooled PC
>class systems in actual commercial PC use. Show us sytems
>that only use component thermal feedback control that failed
>because of lack of your (implied necessary) water flow
>sensor idea.
I've been working with liquid cooled electronics equipment for
40 years. You name the problem, I've seen it for real. Most of
the water cooled systems available for PC's are designed (with
light controllers, for example) to appeal to people who have an
ego and are impressed with eye candy.
I'll repeat what I said in another post, which is that anyone
who puts together a water cooling system had *better* have a
backup available or be able to tolerate the time it takes to
replace the entire system. Putting water cooling into something
that you cannot replace within the time range that you can
tolerate being without, is asking for a disaster.
The reason is because people are simply not willing to realize
that they *can't* properly engineer such a system without
significant expense just for monitoring. Look at what *you*
have proposed... spending several hundred dollar on piss poor
engineering that will destroy the whole system with a single
catastrophic failure of any one of many minor components!
....
>which I still contend is inferior to thermal feedback from
>the cooled parts.
What you "still contend" is of no significance. You are
the guy who wants to monitor every heat sensitive component,
who claims the coolant will boil, and says the surge tank
does not store heat in one article and claims it has to in
another.
The rest of this article isn't worth responding to, because
the questions you ask have all been answered previously.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:51:30 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
L. Davidson) wrote:
>kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:20:46 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
>>L. Davidson) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>No, again the best solution is to actively monitor the
>>>>actual part(s) in jeopardy.
>>>
>>>All of them?
>>
>>How many parts do you expect to be water-cooled? It's
>>usually not but a handful if more than 2. Plus, once one
>>has a single one actively monitored, it is not such an issue
>>using same monitoring technology for another.
>
>Your statement was only regarding those items that a lack of
>cooling will affect,
No I have argued all along that there is need for a certain
minimum airflow regardless of water-cooling.
>which now you are attempting to limit to
>only the items that are "water-cooled", but in fact it is far
>more serious than that. *Everything* in the case is "in
>jeopardy", not just those parts that are water cooled. The
>entire system has to be monitored according to your concept!
Actually, your idea to monitor water flow then goes one
worse in that water temp or flow rate is about the only
parameter that doesn't matter.
>
>Lets just consider one item... the difference between having a
>coolant flow meter on the return entry to the surge tank, and
>doing it your way. I'll limit it to that because this one item
>is more significant than all of what you believe must be done.
>
>Eventually one of the things that happens with liquid cooling
>systems is that they leak. Hoses pop off, fittings break,
>something slits, whatever... if we have a flow meter where it
>should be, the *immediate* effect is to shut the system down.
Unless it's not calibrated properly, or breaks, or the logic
was wrong, etc. Essentially, it does not displace or better
the monitoring of other parts, it only serves as a suitable
alarm against coolant loss, but not even that because
significant coolant will be lost from the (typical)
reservior with no drop in flow rate.
>
>Or... if the hose exiting the water block has broken and we
>wait until the cpu gets hot... the entire surge tank will be
>pumped dry, and all of that coolant will be sprayed into the
>case before the cpu even begins to get warmer...
For it to go dry, all the coolant was sprayed into the case
either way.
>Then, in about
>2 seconds, the cpu is going to go from fully cooled to *no*
>cooling, and may or may not actually shutdown before it fries
>(depending on the cpu).
Nope, the CPU will heat up far more gradually than a 2
second interval, in fact anyone and everyone can right now
stop their heatsink fan and expect dozens of seconds- quite
sufficient for thermal shutdown mechanisms already in place.
Regardless, I do agree that a detection method for coolant
loss can be a good idea, but only in the context of a simple
shutdown mechanism, with the thermal control of the parts
still being part of shutdown or fan RPM variable control.
Even then, the reliability of the system hinges on the less
relable or more costly (or both) flow sensor.
>
>It isn't an "enterprise-class" item, it's simply good engineering
>and cheap insurance compared to the price of everything else
>inside the case. But, you are right that in an el cheapo,
>disposable system, it isn't absolutely necessary. (But, is any
>system that you've invest enough to put water cooling in still
>what could be called "el cheapo, disposable"???)
Actually, the cheap systems is where it would be necessary
to have the leakage sensor as a properly set up good system
should not have as much a chance of cooling leakage as
multiple other mishaps. If you are simply suggesting we
cover all bases, then of course we need to enumerate all the
potential mishaps a system might suffer. Let's start out
with a burglar alarm, storm detection, a motion senor. What
else?
Good engineering requires quality parts and testing. You
don't just buy a cheap flow sensor and slap in in there. If
the system isn't as relable as an air-cooled system you have
a system hardly worth the bother- in this day and age there
is no reason for an unreliable system.
Even so, it's your toy and IF you spend the time it can be
done, but it is a bit presumptious to suggest things based
on the assumption that someone else wants to spend that
level or time or extra expense based on the ideal for your
toy.
>
>>>>This not being a
>>>>enterprise-class, nor enterprise budget system (as far as we
>>>>know) there will typically not be an enterprise class budget
>>>>for precision flow metering and feedback. It is additional
>>>>complexity that would be implemented while unproven at great
>>>>cost and no certain benefit over already proven solutions
>>>>for a PC.
>>>
>>>Monitoring coolant flow in one location is an "enterprise-class"
>>>item, while monitoring every part that is heat sensitive is a
>>>low budget option?
>>
>>Yes. You are proposing a "from scrach" solution that will
>
>I'm suggesting that if a person wants to engineer their own
>system, that is exactly what they need to do. Do you really
>think pre-engineered systems were *not* monitored to prove the
>design? Once proven, they sell it minus all the metering.
Then it shouldn't leak.
>
>Not metering to prove the design is just simply *piss* *poor*
>*engineering*.
You seem to have misunderstood. I mean you have to test the
METERING before ever relying on it. Use the system but you
can't put an unknown design or quality meter in a dodgy
water cooling system and think you've done anything positive
UNTIL that metering system has been fully tested- not just
to work but to REMAIN working, including remaining working
long term with your choice of water and water additives.
>
>>require more expensive parts, engineering to construct and
>>testing to validate. Show us a ready-to-use affordable,
>>small, suitable, etc, solution. Even a good theory on how
>>to do something must be weighted against the actual
>>implementation burden.
>
>The "ready-to-use" comes *after* the engineering model is
>evaluated, not before. These home designed one of a kind
>systems are *not* "ready-to-use". (Just *look* at the designs
>that have been mentioned here as possible first attempts!)
This is not particularly newsworthy. It is obvious.
That's exactly why adding further parts without those parts
having been proven, is a further liability.
>
>>>You don't seem to have just a whole lot of experience with this
>>>kind of stuff.
>>
>>That's funny.
>
>Yes, I'll grant that some of your statements have been a bit
>hilarious.
>
>>SHOW US this grand concept you have- on water-cooled PC
>>class systems in actual commercial PC use. Show us sytems
>>that only use component thermal feedback control that failed
>>because of lack of your (implied necessary) water flow
>>sensor idea.
>
>I've been working with liquid cooled electronics equipment for
>40 years. You name the problem, I've seen it for real. Most of
>the water cooled systems available for PC's are designed (with
>light controllers, for example) to appeal to people who have an
>ego and are impressed with eye candy.
Never said otherwise. What's the point? If anything it
points to the questionable quality of these flow meters too.
>
>I'll repeat what I said in another post, which is that anyone
>who puts together a water cooling system had *better* have a
>backup available or be able to tolerate the time it takes to
>replace the entire system. Putting water cooling into something
>that you cannot replace within the time range that you can
>tolerate being without, is asking for a disaster.
That's an interesting concept and the idea of redundancy I
agree with. On the other hand, if you feel failure is that
imminent then it doesn't seem you yet have a handle on how
to make a PC cooling system reliable.
>
>The reason is because people are simply not willing to realize
>that they *can't* properly engineer such a system without
>significant expense just for monitoring.
Exactly, which is why it's so questionable to focus on flow
meters that aren't qualified and demonstrated to be a good
contol instead of thermal parts monitoring. Perhaps
suupplimentary control but again only after extensive
testing, it is not a finished solution as you described
while whole cooling systems are.
>Look at what *you*
>have proposed... spending several hundred dollar on piss poor
>engineering that will destroy the whole system with a single
>catastrophic failure of any one of many minor components!
Actually that's your suggestion, you quite clearly described
piss poor engineering but not a pre-tested solution ready
for deployment. Failure revolves around weak links. Proper
engineering would fix those weak links not make vague
innuendos about someone else's realization that we don't
care about things like water temp.
>
>...
>>which I still contend is inferior to thermal feedback from
>>the cooled parts.
>
>What you "still contend" is of no significance. You are
>the guy who wants to monitor every heat sensitive component,
No, only those water-cooled and with potential to exceed
their thermal threshold. That is trivial to do and very
reliable. In fact off the shelf kits with all the leads and
alarm exist.
>who claims the coolant will boil,
You might want to set a shrink, your imagination is getting
in the way of reality here. I never claimed coolant will
boil.
>and says the surge tank
>does not store heat in one article and claims it has to in
>another.
No I claimed it is not a significant pseudo-radiator
relative to the actual radiator.
>
>The rest of this article isn't worth responding to, because
>the questions you ask have all been answered previously.
I'm not asking questions I"m pointing how how far off on a
tangent you've gone instead of focusing on failure points.
If you have experienced damage, leakage, etc., from coolant
loss, then stop jerking around with flow meters will after
you find better parts.
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:51:30 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd
L. Davidson) wrote:
>It isn't an "enterprise-class" item, it's simply good engineering
>and cheap insurance compared to the price of everything else
>inside the case. But, you are right that in an el cheapo,
>disposable system, it isn't absolutely necessary. (But, is any
>system that you've invest enough to put water cooling in still
>what could be called "el cheapo, disposable"???)
>
In all fairness, I was more opposed to a generic suggestion
than a specific proven and tested implementation. Iif you
had a specific flow meter you'd tested long enough that you
could personally recommend it that would be more desirable.
On the other hand, that does not displace my opinon about
the need for thermal shutdown based on component temps.
There are more factors than merely whether there's water and
what the water temp is. For example, whether the block(s)
are making good contact with the components, not only right
after installation, during initial testing, but also later
in the system's life.
a silent air cooled computer project 
Linear Mode
