My power supply died. (400watt I believe) but the symptoms were really unusual,
the 5v and 12v lines continued to function, when it died, the picture remained
on the monitor and the sound card kept working. (sounded like a CD skipping)
This tells me the cards still had power...
Fans kept working too.
Turned it off, then back on. Drives powered up, no screen, no BIOS beep, no
nothing.
I tried w/out the video card. Same thing. (also, I couldn't operate the caps
lock/num lock, it appears as if the CPU and NOT the power supply is DOA.
I measured it with a voltmeter, the 5v and 12v lines had power.
For all intents, it really looked as though the CPU itself was dead.
I also disected the original PSU, no bulged capacitors or any sign of board
damage.
After a bit of research, I replaced the power supply with a 350 watt unit.
(it's all the shop had, a Seaside 350 watt supply)
Everything powered up, system worked. 16 hours later it died, same exact
symptoms. I was there when it happened and managed to open the case within
about 3 minutes, none of the heat sinks were unusually "hot".
There weren't any power supply brown-outs or surges at the time. (the lights
didn't flicker or anything)
I managed to get another power supply and it *could* be, I suppose that I just
happened to get a bad replacement PSU. But I want to make sure..
What would cause a power supply to fail like that? 12v, 5v still worked. Fans,
drives, video card still worked. It was exactly as if the CPU just stopped.
I won't be able to get another PSU and I'd really rather not fry another..
What could cause a power supply to fail in such an unusual way? (where the 5v
and 12v power lines are still functional, the power light still lights up
and the green LED on the board is still on)
The motherboard is an:
Motherboard: ASUS M2V
CPU: AMD dual core 5200
There weren't any unusual devices plugged in. Not even USB devices.
Is there anything I should consider before installing PSU #3 ? (there are some
extreme financial constraints, I can't afford to be buying more power supplies)
Any advice appreciated! I'm really baffled by what caused the PSU to fail!
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:58 GMT, Average User
<macusr@air.podro.com> wrote:
>
>My power supply died. (400watt I believe) but the symptoms were really unusual,
>the 5v and 12v lines continued to function, when it died, the picture remained
>on the monitor and the sound card kept working. (sounded like a CD skipping)
>This tells me the cards still had power...
>
>Fans kept working too.
>
>Turned it off, then back on. Drives powered up, no screen, no BIOS beep, no
>nothing.
>
>I tried w/out the video card. Same thing. (also, I couldn't operate the caps
>lock/num lock, it appears as if the CPU and NOT the power supply is DOA.
>
>I measured it with a voltmeter, the 5v and 12v lines had power.
But what voltages were read? Did you measure 3.3V, 5VSB,
and if it were a dual rail PSU, the 2nd 12V rail going to
the CPU as well as the 12V to HDDs/etc?
>
>For all intents, it really looked as though the CPU itself was dead.
>
>I also disected the original PSU, no bulged capacitors or any sign of board
>damage.
>
>After a bit of research, I replaced the power supply with a 350 watt unit.
>(it's all the shop had, a Seaside 350 watt supply)
Are you sure it was "Seaside" and not Seasonic? Seasonic is
a fairly good brand, while Seaside is an unknown (generic)
that is not likely to be capable of suppling enough current
to work for very long. If the replacement PSU is such a
generic it is conceivable that it would be fried from the
stress of running a modern system - even after a few minutes
depending on total system load. Other times the gamble with
generic PSU is poor quality control, sometimes causing it to
not work at all or have a high infant mortality rate.
If this 350W PSU was a "Seaside", I would insist on my money
back from the shop, or to have the price paid credited to be
applied towards a better PSU they order for you (so long as
they don't try to price-gouge you too much on the one they
have to order, you can see fair market prices at someplace
like Newegg.com, and if they ordered it from Newegg it will
usually arrive within 2-3 business days so you wouldn't have
too much downtime.
>
>Everything powered up, system worked. 16 hours later it died, same exact
>symptoms. I was there when it happened and managed to open the case within
>about 3 minutes, none of the heat sinks were unusually "hot".
By same exact symptoms do you mean the looping music and
screen freeze too, or just that system wouldn't come on
after (resetting or shutting down?) whatever happened but
the fans and drives worked but it failed to initialize and
POST - thus no screen output or beeps?
>
>There weren't any power supply brown-outs or surges at the time. (the lights
>didn't flicker or anything)
>
>I managed to get another power supply and it *could* be, I suppose that I just
>happened to get a bad replacement PSU. But I want to make sure..
If the replacement is another generic, I wouldn't even try
it, instead getting a known good name brand. You didn't
mention all the (major power consuming) parts in your system
so it is hard to say if an honestly rated 350W PSU will
suffice or not.
>
>What would cause a power supply to fail like that? 12v, 5v still worked. Fans,
>drives, video card still worked. It was exactly as if the CPU just stopped.
You write that they "still worked" but we can't be entirely
sure of that. They could get power, show some kind of
activity due to having power, but it might not be a stable
operation because of dirty power, and similarly, a
poor/failing/marginally-capable-for-system-load PSU has a
harder time initially powering on a system than keeping it
running.
I feel the first step is to use a PSU known capable of
powering the system. Wattage alone on a generic is too big
a gamble to make an assumption of fitness even if it is
brand new and can stabily run a lesser system.
It could be some other part, not a PSU fault, but it is hard
to speculate with several variables. You might try
unplugging all other things non-essential towards getting
the system to initialize and POST, leaving only the
following:
CPU, CPU heatsink/fan, 1 memory module, the least power
hungry video card you have.
Disconnect power to drives, keyboard, mouse, pull out any
other cards in the system. If there are any doubts about
the front case wiring then disconnect that too and power on
the system by shorting the two PS-On switch pins on the
motherboard together with a metal object like a screwdriver
tip. If the system can successfully post, turn it off and
add keyboard so you can go into the bios and look at the
hardware/health monitor bios page. If the system can't
successfully post, unplug AC power, pull the motherboard
battery out and use the clear CMOS jumper. 10 minutes later
put battery back in, connect AC power, wait 10 seconds and
try turning on system again. If system doesn't work still,
measure all the aforementioned voltages and note any that
deviate from expected values.
If the motherboard has PS2 or USB jumpers onboard to select
between 5V and 5VSB power, use 5V not 5VSB jumper setting
for the time being.
>
>I won't be able to get another PSU and I'd really rather not fry another..
At the least I feel the shop owes you your money back. Even
if the system had a short circuit of some part, it should
not kill the PSU. Since we don't k
>
>What could cause a power supply to fail in such an unusual way? (where the 5v
>and 12v power lines are still functional, the power light still lights up
>and the green LED on the board is still on)
We can't say for certain from what you wrote that the 5V and
12V rails are functioning correctly even if they may have
power. PSU may turn on but have instable power, or take too
long to regulate properly so system can't initialize and
POST. Reducing parts in the system would tend to help PSU
regulate sooner by reducing current consumption but the
largest consumers, motherboard processor and video card have
to be present either way so pulling other parts is done in a
hope to show some sign of life but can't be a conclusive
proof of anything if it still don't show POST so you have
any feedback on screen.
>
>The motherboard is an:
>
>Motherboard: ASUS M2V
>CPU: AMD dual core 5200
>
>There weren't any unusual devices plugged in. Not even USB devices.
>
>Is there anything I should consider before installing PSU #3 ? (there are some
>extreme financial constraints, I can't afford to be buying more power supplies)
You shouldn't need to. We can't know yet if original PSU is
dead or not, but you should receive a refund for the second
one. Unfortunately, a quality PSU may cost more than a
generic (assuming still that the generic was Seaside instead
of Seasonic), but you may find that buying online allows you
to pay nearly the same for a good brand as a generic costs
from a shop due to the shop middleman overhead.
>
>Any advice appreciated! I'm really baffled by what caused the PSU to fail!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Jamie
Maybe some other part is failing instead of PSU, leaving all
parts non-essential towards posting and finally running
windows would be a way to rule out some parts if this is
possible. If all else fails you are left substituting other
known-good or new parts for each item in the system, or
trying the suspect parts in another compatible known working
system. Playing odds, of the main components that are still
needed as enumerated above, CPU memory motherboard video,
the motherboard would tend to be a more likely fault,
perhaps video card if the fan on it died or was very clogged
with dust till it overheated. CPU and memory are usually
fairly reliable though memory might be the next most likely
then CPU last.
What are the ratings on the 1st replacement PSU, the
Seaside? What are the ratings on the second PSU. From
these and the brand name and model we might be able to
speculate about appropriateness for powering the system
based on the parts list I asked about above.
There are other less likely things that could cause such a
problem like an intermittent short. Something like having a
loose screw stuck behind the motherboard, having a
motherboard standoff installed where there shouldn't be one
which doesn't correspond to any screw hole in the
otherboard. Even bugs that crawl into a slot and die can
cause shorts, we can only proceed with one thing at a time
trying to reduce the variables through all the things
mentioned above.
Also check the battery voltage, it wouldn't be impossible
for you to have two separate problems, one being instability
that just causes windows to crash, and the second being a
dead battery that keeps the system from POSTing. Measure
battery voltage, individual board tolerance to low voltage
might vary but I would replace it if lower than 3.0V... at
least in a case where I was trying to rule out things since
a battery is cheap, about $1 online maybe cheapest on ebay
shipped in a paper envelope.
On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> But what voltages were read? Did you measure 3.3V, 5VSB,
> and if it were a dual rail PSU, the 2nd 12V rail going to
> the CPU as well as the 12V to HDDs/etc?
5v and 12v from the drive cables, I couldn't read the others because it needed
to be plugged in to power up.
> Are you sure it was "Seaside" and not Seasonic? Seasonic is
> a fairly good brand, while Seaside is an unknown (generic)
Your right! seasonic.
> If this 350W PSU was a "Seaside", I would insist on my money
> back from the shop, or to have the price paid credited to be
> applied towards a better PSU they order for you (so long as
> they don't try to price-gouge you too much on the one they
> have to order, you can see fair market prices at someplace
> like Newegg.com, and if they ordered it from Newegg it will
> usually arrive within 2-3 business days so you wouldn't have
> too much downtime.
That was the only power supply they offered, so I'm kind of stuck
with it. :-(
Still, wouldn't it just shut itself off if the load was too high?
>>Everything powered up, system worked. 16 hours later it died, same exact
>>symptoms. I was there when it happened and managed to open the case within
>>about 3 minutes, none of the heat sinks were unusually "hot".
>
> By same exact symptoms do you mean the looping music and
> screen freeze too, or just that system wouldn't come on
> after (resetting or shutting down?) whatever happened but
> the fans and drives worked but it failed to initialize and
> POST - thus no screen output or beeps?
Yes, same exact symptoms except, no looping sound. (I didn't have
one playing when it went out)
It would appear as though everything but the CPU was powered on.
>>There weren't any power supply brown-outs or surges at the time. (the lights
>>didn't flicker or anything)
>>
>>I managed to get another power supply and it *could* be, I suppose that I just
>>happened to get a bad replacement PSU. But I want to make sure..
>
> If the replacement is another generic, I wouldn't even try
> it, instead getting a known good name brand. You didn't
> mention all the (major power consuming) parts in your system
> so it is hard to say if an honestly rated 350W PSU will
> suffice or not.
It's a pretty vanilla machine:
AMD AM2 5200 (65 watt)
M2V motherboard
Integrated sound card.
Video Card (nvidia GeForce)
SATA Hard drive
Atansic network card.
DVD drive
CDRW drive
> You write that they "still worked" but we can't be entirely
> sure of that. They could get power, show some kind of
> activity due to having power, but it might not be a stable
> operation because of dirty power, and similarly, a
> poor/failing/marginally-capable-for-system-load PSU has a
> harder time initially powering on a system than keeping it
> running.
Hmm.. if I removed the cables to the CDROM's, would that likely
give it the extra margin? I can probably do without one of the cdroms.
This could be an insight!
> It could be some other part, not a PSU fault, but it is hard
> to speculate with several variables. You might try
> unplugging all other things non-essential towards getting
> the system to initialize and POST, leaving only the
> following:
>
> CPU, CPU heatsink/fan, 1 memory module, the least power
> hungry video card you have.
Hmm.. what is the probability of a bad motherboard, processor or
other thing shorting out the PSU? Have you ever known something to
do that?
>>I won't be able to get another PSU and I'd really rather not fry another..
>
> At the least I feel the shop owes you your money back. Even
> if the system had a short circuit of some part, it should
> not kill the PSU. Since we don't k
I do appreciate your time in answering. I understand there isn't a guarantee :-)
Just looking for areas and things I can do on this next power supply to
hopefully keep it from dying.
>>What could cause a power supply to fail in such an unusual way? (where the 5v
>>and 12v power lines are still functional, the power light still lights up
>>and the green LED on the board is still on)
>
> We can't say for certain from what you wrote that the 5V and
> 12V rails are functioning correctly even if they may have
> power. PSU may turn on but have instable power, or take too
> long to regulate properly so system can't initialize and
> POST. Reducing parts in the system would tend to help PSU
> regulate sooner by reducing current consumption but the
> largest consumers, motherboard processor and video card have
> to be present either way so pulling other parts is done in a
> hope to show some sign of life but can't be a conclusive
> proof of anything if it still don't show POST so you have
> any feedback on screen.
I did pull everything, even the video card.. the NUM-LOCK and CAPS lock
keys wouldn't turn the lights on/off, this indicated to me the CPU
wasn't on.
> You shouldn't need to. We can't know yet if original PSU is
> dead or not, but you should receive a refund for the second
> one. Unfortunately, a quality PSU may cost more than a
> generic (assuming still that the generic was Seaside instead
> of Seasonic), but you may find that buying online allows you
> to pay nearly the same for a good brand as a generic costs
> from a shop due to the shop middleman overhead.
I kind of wish I had. But.. this is the only PSU I've got to work
with.
> Maybe some other part is failing instead of PSU, leaving all
> parts non-essential towards posting and finally running
> windows would be a way to rule out some parts if this is
> possible.
I'm reasonably sure it'll power up if I put this PSU in it. I just
don't know how long it'll last.
> If all else fails you are left substituting other
> known-good or new parts for each item in the system, or
> trying the suspect parts in another compatible known working
> system. Playing odds, of the main components that are still
> needed as enumerated above, CPU memory motherboard video,
> the motherboard would tend to be a more likely fault,
> perhaps video card if the fan on it died or was very clogged
> with dust till it overheated. CPU and memory are usually
> fairly reliable though memory might be the next most likely
> then CPU last.
Another vote for motherboard as "most likely" in terms of
bad components.
I should have said, there is virtually no dust at all, the motherboard
is surprisingly clean. The video card doesn't have a fan.
> What are the ratings on the 1st replacement PSU, the
> Seaside? What are the ratings on the second PSU. From
> these and the brand name and model we might be able to
> speculate about appropriateness for powering the system
> based on the parts list I asked about above.
The original could have been 550W or 400W. (the original PSU seemed to indicate
550 on the label, but I can't be certain, the invoice for this machine said
400W)
> There are other less likely things that could cause such a
> problem like an intermittent short. Something like having a
> loose screw stuck behind the motherboard, having a
> motherboard standoff installed where there shouldn't be one
> which doesn't correspond to any screw hole in the
> otherboard. Even bugs that crawl into a slot and die can
> cause shorts, we can only proceed with one thing at a time
> trying to reduce the variables through all the things
> mentioned above.
Hahah!
I actually checked for insects, that was one of the things I had
suspected.
There weren't any loose screws and I did take the motherboard out, inspected it
for scratches and anything that might cause a short... nothing :-(
> Also check the battery voltage, it wouldn't be impossible
> for you to have two separate problems, one being instability
> that just causes windows to crash, and the second being a
> dead battery that keeps the system from POSTing.
I think the battery is good, as it was able to keep its settings
I *did* have a seemingly unrelated problem with a hard drive SATA
cable. But I replaced the cable within 2 hours of powering up on
PSU2 (the most recent one that went out)
This wasn't a power cable, it was just the data cable.
> Measure
> battery voltage, individual board tolerance to low voltage
> might vary but I would replace it if lower than 3.0V... at
> least in a case where I was trying to rule out things since
> a battery is cheap, about $1 online maybe cheapest on ebay
> shipped in a paper envelope.
I'll check the battery next.
And.. remove the USB plug on the front panel, remove the CDROM from
the board and power it up, does this seem like a reasonable test?
When this does power up, do you recommend I DISABLE everything related
to sleep mode in BIOS?
I did look and all the jumpers seem to be set to regular 5V instead
of the sleep mode.
By the way, there's a bright blue LED on the front. I had removed it
when I first got the machine (it's too bright) is there any harm in keeping
it removed? (I don't think there is, and it'd likely help more than hurt..
but I felt I should ask)
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:28:39 GMT, Average User
<macusr@air.podro.com> wrote:
>On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> But what voltages were read? Did you measure 3.3V, 5VSB,
>> and if it were a dual rail PSU, the 2nd 12V rail going to
>> the CPU as well as the 12V to HDDs/etc?
>
>5v and 12v from the drive cables, I couldn't read the others because it needed
>to be plugged in to power up.
>
>> Are you sure it was "Seaside" and not Seasonic? Seasonic is
>> a fairly good brand, while Seaside is an unknown (generic)
>
>Your right! seasonic.
>
>> If this 350W PSU was a "Seaside", I would insist on my money
>> back from the shop, or to have the price paid credited to be
>> applied towards a better PSU they order for you (so long as
>> they don't try to price-gouge you too much on the one they
>> have to order, you can see fair market prices at someplace
>> like Newegg.com, and if they ordered it from Newegg it will
>> usually arrive within 2-3 business days so you wouldn't have
>> too much downtime.
>
>That was the only power supply they offered, so I'm kind of stuck
>with it. :-(
Seasonic is a fairly good brand, I wouldn't say "stuck"
unless it has died and if it has, you should be entitled to
a refund or replacement - from the seller, not having to go
through Seasonic warranty program since it's only a (day?)
old.
>
>Still, wouldn't it just shut itself off if the load was too high?
Yes, exactly. Protection circuit(s) should not allow it to
be damaged, not in a day at least. If a marginally capable
(current capacity) PSU were ran hard and hot long term that
would decrease it's life, but that should be months of use
at least, more often a shorter # of years, not a few hours.
>
>>>Everything powered up, system worked. 16 hours later it died, same exact
>>>symptoms. I was there when it happened and managed to open the case within
>>>about 3 minutes, none of the heat sinks were unusually "hot".
>>
>> By same exact symptoms do you mean the looping music and
>> screen freeze too, or just that system wouldn't come on
>> after (resetting or shutting down?) whatever happened but
>> the fans and drives worked but it failed to initialize and
>> POST - thus no screen output or beeps?
>
>Yes, same exact symptoms except, no looping sound. (I didn't have
>one playing when it went out)
>
>It would appear as though everything but the CPU was powered on.
>
>>>There weren't any power supply brown-outs or surges at the time. (the lights
>>>didn't flicker or anything)
>>>
>>>I managed to get another power supply and it *could* be, I suppose that I just
>>>happened to get a bad replacement PSU. But I want to make sure..
>>
>> If the replacement is another generic, I wouldn't even try
>> it, instead getting a known good name brand. You didn't
>> mention all the (major power consuming) parts in your system
>> so it is hard to say if an honestly rated 350W PSU will
>> suffice or not.
>
>It's a pretty vanilla machine:
>
>AMD AM2 5200 (65 watt)
>M2V motherboard
>Integrated sound card.
>Video Card (nvidia GeForce)
What kind (model) of video card? Some are much more power
hungry than others, particularly the higher end gaming
cards.
>SATA Hard drive
>Atansic network card.
>DVD drive
>CDRW drive
Beyond not knowing which video card you have, if it isn't
particularly power hungry your system should have no problem
running from a Seasonic 350W. A lazy, rough estimate might
be that your system typically consumes a little under 150W
total.
>
>
>> You write that they "still worked" but we can't be entirely
>> sure of that. They could get power, show some kind of
>> activity due to having power, but it might not be a stable
>> operation because of dirty power, and similarly, a
>> poor/failing/marginally-capable-for-system-load PSU has a
>> harder time initially powering on a system than keeping it
>> running.
>
>Hmm.. if I removed the cables to the CDROM's, would that likely
>give it the extra margin? I can probably do without one of the cdroms.
It's only a temporary test to see if system then works. If
it does, you have either a defective or failed drive, or PSU
works better at a lower load - though a CDROm alone is a
negligable load, especially so when it's not even spinning a
disc yet. The basic idea is just to eliminate as many
variables (parts) as possible, so that further scrutiny can
be placed on what remains which would be only PSU,
motherboard, video card, memory, heatsink/fan (though rare,
it is possible a fan could short out though in your case of
reporting fan still works that is not likely).
>
>This could be an insight!
>
>> It could be some other part, not a PSU fault, but it is hard
>> to speculate with several variables. You might try
>> unplugging all other things non-essential towards getting
>> the system to initialize and POST, leaving only the
>> following:
>>
>> CPU, CPU heatsink/fan, 1 memory module, the least power
>> hungry video card you have.
>
>Hmm.. what is the probability of a bad motherboard, processor or
>other thing shorting out the PSU? Have you ever known something to
>do that?
Processors rarely fail like this, unless something obvious
happened like 'sink clogged with dust, fan failed, and it
sat and ran like that long term as it would be able to shut
down from a single instance, maybe several of overheating
before there was permanent damage. Consider the processor
one of the least likely parts to have failed otherwise,
though there is still a very low chance it could.
Motherboard is far more likely, though if shorting out there
is usually some sign of this, as enough of a short to do
this to a psu would be several amps - a lot of heat created
at the short, generally making some discoloration, funny PCB
or chip burning smell that is hard to overlook, or if it
were a capacitor it would tend to explode fairly quickly
with enough of a short to kill a decent PSU within a few
hours.
It might be more likely that some other fault caused the
motherboard to fail, if that is the faulty part. Sometimes
installing a PSU, the installer can accidentally damage
something else, or not get a connector seated good. Recheck
all connectors, cards, etc, also examining the connectors
for discoloration or deformity (particularly PSU connectors
to motherboard and video card if video card has it's own
connector from PSU).
>
>>>I won't be able to get another PSU and I'd really rather not fry another..
>>
>> At the least I feel the shop owes you your money back. Even
>> if the system had a short circuit of some part, it should
>> not kill the PSU. Since we don't k
>
>I do appreciate your time in answering. I understand there isn't a guarantee :-)
? If you mean no guarantee on the PSU from the shop, even
if they insisted there is no warranty you may be covered by
consumer protection laws, but it's just good business for
them to handle this, they presumably made a buck off selling
it to you and should cover a failure in a few hours with a
replacement or refund. If it is an OEM unit, unless it was
expressly sold "as-is" (and we'd expect some kind of huge
discount in that case, not only a discount but to wonder
where and why they are getting non-warrantied parts) they
should still cover it. If it is a retail PSU then the
Seasonic warranty should apply and worst come to worst you
can seek RMA through Seasonic, though it's little
consolation IF the PSU is damaged and you need system
working again ASAP.
>
>Just looking for areas and things I can do on this next power supply to
>hopefully keep it from dying.
This is a hard thing to answer, you've not described doing
anything that should have been a problem. I could suggest
basic things like ensuring you are grounded when working in
a system to eliminate ESD damage to anything, and making
sure the system has adequate ventilation, but beyond these
there should be no special care needed beyond what everyone
else does, just an ordinary replacement of whichever part
has failed.
Maybe you are that one person out of thousands who after
having their PSU die, unluckily ended up with a replacement
that had a defect, but I would not buy another PSU without a
warranty if your (Seasonic) actually doesn't have one, and
would be further examining the parts and trying to find
faults in motherboard, video card, and less likely memory or
CPU. Surely the shop can do something to accomdate your
needs, it shouldn't be much time for them to just plug your
memory and video card into another system they have to rule
out these things, perhaps even CPU too though the more you
ask of them the more likely they might want a bench fee, and
yet they have left you hanging without the good support
which is the typical reason people go to shops, if they
won't even replace the new PSU.
>
>>>What could cause a power supply to fail in such an unusual way? (where the 5v
>>>and 12v power lines are still functional, the power light still lights up
>>>and the green LED on the board is still on)
>>
>> We can't say for certain from what you wrote that the 5V and
>> 12V rails are functioning correctly even if they may have
>> power. PSU may turn on but have instable power, or take too
>> long to regulate properly so system can't initialize and
>> POST. Reducing parts in the system would tend to help PSU
>> regulate sooner by reducing current consumption but the
>> largest consumers, motherboard processor and video card have
>> to be present either way so pulling other parts is done in a
>> hope to show some sign of life but can't be a conclusive
>> proof of anything if it still don't show POST so you have
>> any feedback on screen.
>
>I did pull everything, even the video card..
You have to leave a video card in the system for it to POST,
though in most cases without one there might be beeps
indicating a no video card error. After pulling the parts
(having had AC power off during this), you might try
clearing CMOS and leave the battery out for 10 minutes
before reinstalling battery and switching or plugging AC
power back in/on.
>the NUM-LOCK and CAPS lock
>keys wouldn't turn the lights on/off, this indicated to me the CPU
>wasn't on.
Leave keyboard disconnected until you have success getting
system to turn on if it will, then you'd add parts back one
at a time, always with AC power off when adding one back.
>
>> You shouldn't need to. We can't know yet if original PSU is
>> dead or not, but you should receive a refund for the second
>> one. Unfortunately, a quality PSU may cost more than a
>> generic (assuming still that the generic was Seaside instead
>> of Seasonic), but you may find that buying online allows you
>> to pay nearly the same for a good brand as a generic costs
>> from a shop due to the shop middleman overhead.
>
>I kind of wish I had. But.. this is the only PSU I've got to work
>with.
At some point you will be up against a wall on this, it
could turn out that no amount of forethought or
checking/testing/etc that can reasonably be done would
eliminate the need to test some parts on another known
working system, or get some known working or new parts to
try on that system.
>
>> Maybe some other part is failing instead of PSU, leaving all
>> parts non-essential towards posting and finally running
>> windows would be a way to rule out some parts if this is
>> possible.
>
>I'm reasonably sure it'll power up if I put this PSU in it. I just
>don't know how long it'll last.
Which PSU is "this PSU"? A third one you have? I'd do as
suggested previously, strip system down to minimal parts and
see if system POSTs, checking the voltages, and monitoring
temps.
Some things can easily be overlooked. Suppose when you were
installing PSU, the video card was dislodged slightly. If
that were to happen it could be a problem easily solved by
just loosening the screw and reseating it in the slot - old
PSU might work still. Another thing you can do is try
turning on PSU without a load, google for the ATX PSU
connector pinout and short the PS-On pin to an adjacent
ground pin with a paperclip or similar, using an old
least-valuable drive as a load (loading the PSU slightly may
be necessary to turn it on and/or keep it running). Confirm
that PSU turns on and stays on so long as load is attached
and paperclip making good connection (since it is not a
proper connector, it might be a bit intermittent but this
should be obvious based on the response from wiggling the
paperclip). If/when PSU turns on and runs like this, take
voltage readings of 3.3V, 5V, all 12V rails present, and
5VSB. Unloaded rails may be a bit off the expected values
but not terribly so.
>
>> If all else fails you are left substituting other
>> known-good or new parts for each item in the system, or
>> trying the suspect parts in another compatible known working
>> system. Playing odds, of the main components that are still
>> needed as enumerated above, CPU memory motherboard video,
>> the motherboard would tend to be a more likely fault,
>> perhaps video card if the fan on it died or was very clogged
>> with dust till it overheated. CPU and memory are usually
>> fairly reliable though memory might be the next most likely
>> then CPU last.
>
>Another vote for motherboard as "most likely" in terms of
>bad components.
>
>I should have said, there is virtually no dust at all, the motherboard
>is surprisingly clean. The video card doesn't have a fan.
In that case I would try to find some alternate video card,
unless your room conditions are very dust free (atypically
so) or the case has very good filtration, a low dust level
combined with a passive card could lead to speculation that
the video card might've ran too hot. Maybe this is wrong,
we don't have details about the card, case ventilation,
ambient temps, etc... but if you can get ahold of some other
video card, even some ancient PCI card you wouldn't want to
use, just having it for testing purposes might help. If
trying a different video card, unplug the original with AC
power off and clear CMOS before powering up with *new* video
card.
>There weren't any loose screws and I did take the motherboard out, inspected it
>for scratches and anything that might cause a short... nothing :-(
>
>> Also check the battery voltage, it wouldn't be impossible
>> for you to have two separate problems, one being instability
>> that just causes windows to crash, and the second being a
>> dead battery that keeps the system from POSTing.
>
>I think the battery is good, as it was able to keep its settings
>
>I *did* have a seemingly unrelated problem with a hard drive SATA
>cable. But I replaced the cable within 2 hours of powering up on
>PSU2 (the most recent one that went out)
>
>This wasn't a power cable, it was just the data cable.
Ok, that shouldn't cause the problem then. A bad data cable
might cause a OS lockup and stuttering sound, but not
failure to turn on, initialize and POST the system on
subsequent attempts.
>
>> Measure
>> battery voltage, individual board tolerance to low voltage
>> might vary but I would replace it if lower than 3.0V... at
>> least in a case where I was trying to rule out things since
>> a battery is cheap, about $1 online maybe cheapest on ebay
>> shipped in a paper envelope.
>
>I'll check the battery next.
>
>And.. remove the USB plug on the front panel, remove the CDROM from
>the board and power it up, does this seem like a reasonable test?
Remove, unplug all parts but motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan,
1 memory module, and video card. Reduce all variables to
bare minimums. With that minimum config, after having
unplugged AC and cleared CMOS, you can ignore the other
parts as it would be something in the minimum config that
had failed.
>
>When this does power up, do you recommend I DISABLE everything related
>to sleep mode in BIOS?
No, after you have cleared CMOS leave the bios settings at
defaults for the time being. If system turns on and POSTs,
turn system off and see if it starts up again without
changing any bios settings. This can be important as some
bios will POST the first time with failsafe values but on
subsequent attempts will use detected values applicable to
the installed parts - which seems like, and is a good thing
for proper operation but can also cause problems or reveal
problems.
No bios settings should need to be changed, besides basic
ones like setting the clock correctly if the system
continues to POST with the remaining parts reconnected, and
perhaps the processor speed if it is not automatically set
correctly (which it probably was after the first reboot).
>
>I did look and all the jumpers seem to be set to regular 5V instead
>of the sleep mode.
>
>By the way, there's a bright blue LED on the front. I had removed it
>when I first got the machine (it's too bright) is there any harm in keeping
>it removed? (I don't think there is, and it'd likely help more than hurt..
>but I felt I should ask)
No, unplugging the LED is fine. If you would like to have
the LED back but dimmer, you might solder about 2K resistor
inline with the positive lead. Maybe that resistor value is
too high, roughly in the 470 Ohm to 4K7 range is what I'd
try, or lower ohm if you don't need much brightness
reduction. Of course using a different lower brightness LED
would also accomplish the same thing since most of the blue
ones used are super-bright types. Another cheap easy way to
reduce the effect of such an LED is pull it out, roughen up
the surface of the LED with very fine grit sandpaper so it
looks frosted, though too rough a sandpaper will make it
look poor, and I can't say if this is enough to meet your
goal as it reduces glare moreso than brightness, but I have
had reasonably good results doing this to blue superbrights
that I put in some gear and wanted to be a soft glow
indicator instead of a narrower focused flashlight-light
beam coming out of a chassis.
>
>Thank you VERY much for responding!
If the above doesn't help, there may not be much left you
can do besides swapping in new parts, or used... I used to
get old PCI video cards from a local shop for free or <= $5,
depending on who was working that day. It would be a cheap
way to rule out a part, and since they sold you the PSU that
died maybe they'd just give or lend you a card. Ruling out
video is ruling out 1/4th of the minimal parts remaining
after unplugging the non-critical stuff.
If the system were to run again with the next new PSU
installed, all you can do is keep a very close eye on
temperatures, voltages, be alert for funny smells and things
like fans shutting off unintentionally (Or really I mean not
coming back on) if it went into and out of sleep mode.
Maybe you just received a bad new PSU and your bad luck is
over. It does happen, no psu has 0% early failure rate.
Average User wrote:
> On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> But what voltages were read? Did you measure 3.3V, 5VSB,
>> and if it were a dual rail PSU, the 2nd 12V rail going to
>> the CPU as well as the 12V to HDDs/etc?
>
> 5v and 12v from the drive cables, I couldn't read the others because it needed
> to be plugged in to power up.
>
You can probe the backside of the main power connector, to
monitor the other voltages. There is the nylon shell, with the
wires coming out, but the ends of the metal pins are accessible
to your multimeter probe. (Clip your black lead to an I/O screw,
so you're only poking at the main connector with the red test
lead.)
The pattern of voltages, can tell you where the loading is.
For example, if I saw 3.25V, 5.05V, 12.25V as the three main
rail voltages, I might suspect that the 3.3V rail has the
most loading, relatively speaking. The relationship of the
voltages is mainly determined by turns ratio (when all the
voltages share a common transformer), and if the voltages
seem to be relatively accurate with no load present, then
the loaded values can be used to hint at where the load might
be. This loading idea gains the most credence, when the
voltages are quite far off. So if you saw 3.1V on the 3.3V rail,
you'd suspect something was partially shorting or overloading
on the motherboard.
That technique is a poor substitute for having a DC clamp-on
ammeter, but not everyone can afford one of those.
If the load presented by the motherboard gets high enough, the
pins on the main power connector can get burned. 6 amps per pin
is a rough estimate of the safe current carrying capacity. Above
that level, you might see eventual oxidation and failure to make
good contact. Oxidation is a runaway condition, so once a pin
is ruined, it only gets worse (resistance gets higher, temp
gets higher, pin oxidizes some more, soon there is no shiny
metal left). Cleaning up a pin, with emery paper or equivalent,
would only be a temporary solution. (I've tried it, on some lab
equipment I needed to stay running, and did experiments over
a two year period. I eventually soldered the power supply
right to the equipment, so the connector could no longer fail :-)
Problem solved.)
On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> Maybe you are that one person out of thousands who after
> having their PSU die, unluckily ended up with a replacement
> that had a defect, but I would not buy another PSU without a
> warranty if your (Seasonic) actually doesn't have one, and
> would be further examining the parts and trying to find
> faults in motherboard, video card, and less likely memory or
> CPU. Surely the shop can do something to accomdate your
> needs, it shouldn't be much time for them to just plug your
I should clarify, they DID. I have now the second Seasonic PSU
and I want to make sure it'll work. (they wouldn't refund the $$,
but they did exchange it)
I can't exchage it AGAIN.. this is what I mean by "last chance".
(I've not yet powered it.. trying to collect data first)
Anyway, I plugged it in and fired it up. This time, it didn't do what
it did last time.. :-/
It did NOT boot, no POST, no BEEP, no nothing.
I pulled the RAM and attempted again.
No POST, no error about no ram or anything on the monitor, BUT it
did beep.
Is the CPU responsible for checking the presence of RAM or is that
some other circuit?
(pulling the ram resulting in a beep provided some insights?)
Thanks!
(I've NEVER had a problem like this before, this is just plain WEIRD!)
Average User wrote:
> On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> Maybe you are that one person out of thousands who after
>> having their PSU die, unluckily ended up with a replacement
>> that had a defect, but I would not buy another PSU without a
>> warranty if your (Seasonic) actually doesn't have one, and
>> would be further examining the parts and trying to find
>> faults in motherboard, video card, and less likely memory or
>> CPU. Surely the shop can do something to accomdate your
>> needs, it shouldn't be much time for them to just plug your
>
> I should clarify, they DID. I have now the second Seasonic PSU
> and I want to make sure it'll work. (they wouldn't refund the $$,
> but they did exchange it)
>
> I can't exchage it AGAIN.. this is what I mean by "last chance".
> (I've not yet powered it.. trying to collect data first)
>
>
> Anyway, I plugged it in and fired it up. This time, it didn't do what
> it did last time.. :-/
>
> It did NOT boot, no POST, no BEEP, no nothing.
>
> I pulled the RAM and attempted again.
>
> No POST, no error about no ram or anything on the monitor, BUT it
> did beep.
>
> Is the CPU responsible for checking the presence of RAM or is that
> some other circuit?
>
> (pulling the ram resulting in a beep provided some insights?)
>
> Thanks!
>
> (I've NEVER had a problem like this before, this is just plain WEIRD!)
>
> Jamie
The CPU checks for RAM. Part of the BIOS code runs without the benefit
of RAM, the CPU reads the SPD chip on the DIMM, and then attempts to
set up the RAM controller in the Northbridge.
If it beeps a "missing RAM" code, when the RAM is removed, then you
know the CPU has executed some code. If the computer no longer
beeps when the RAM is reinstalled, then the RAM is dragging down the
Northbridge, and preventing the CPU from getting to the BIOS chip,
to read instructions.
If those are the symptoms, do you have another stick of RAM to test ?
If the second stick does the same thing, it could be motherboard
(or a short to the bottom of the motherboard, like an extra standoff
where there should not be one). If it is a standoff, pressing on the
motherboard, might make the problem intermittent.
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:50:05 GMT, Average User
<macusr@air.podro.com> wrote:
>On 2008-06-11, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> Maybe you are that one person out of thousands who after
>> having their PSU die, unluckily ended up with a replacement
>> that had a defect, but I would not buy another PSU without a
>> warranty if your (Seasonic) actually doesn't have one, and
>> would be further examining the parts and trying to find
>> faults in motherboard, video card, and less likely memory or
>> CPU. Surely the shop can do something to accomdate your
>> needs, it shouldn't be much time for them to just plug your
>
>I should clarify, they DID. I have now the second Seasonic PSU
>and I want to make sure it'll work. (they wouldn't refund the $$,
>but they did exchange it)
>
>I can't exchage it AGAIN.. this is what I mean by "last chance".
>(I've not yet powered it.. trying to collect data first)
>
>
>Anyway, I plugged it in and fired it up. This time, it didn't do what
>it did last time.. :-/
>
>It did NOT boot, no POST, no BEEP, no nothing.
>
>I pulled the RAM and attempted again.
All of it? There is not much point in pulling all of it.
Leave one in. If you question that one's functionality,
next pull it and install a different module (assuming you've
more than one), remembering to cut AC power inbetween
swapping anything.
>
>No POST, no error about no ram or anything on the monitor, BUT it
>did beep.
You aren't supplying vital details such as whether you
cleared CMOS, removed battery for 10 minutes (both with AC
power disconnected), reseted all cards (memory and others)
or tried removing all parts but CPU, heatsink/fan, 1 memory
module and video. These were suggested as things to do
next, and to give us feedback so we know whether you have
tried them or still need to.
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:48:24 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.com>
wrote:
>The CPU checks for RAM. Part of the BIOS code runs without the benefit
>of RAM, the CPU reads the SPD chip on the DIMM, and then attempts to
>set up the RAM controller in the Northbridge.
I'm not so sure that all of this is always true, some boards
seem to POST with default conservative values for memory
then after executing bios from memory, then set the detected
SPD values to be applied upon next reset reading from nv
memory.
>
>If it beeps a "missing RAM" code, when the RAM is removed, then you
>know the CPU has executed some code. If the computer no longer
>beeps when the RAM is reinstalled, then the RAM is dragging down the
>Northbridge, and preventing the CPU from getting to the BIOS chip,
>to read instructions.
>
>If those are the symptoms, do you have another stick of RAM to test ?
>If the second stick does the same thing, it could be motherboard
>(or a short to the bottom of the motherboard, like an extra standoff
>where there should not be one). If it is a standoff, pressing on the
>motherboard, might make the problem intermittent.
Indeed, if all else fails pull the board and test minimal
components on a non-conductive surface.
(weird) Power Supply failure, reason? 
Linear Mode
