Discussion Regarding Digital Signatures

There are many digital signature products on the market but they appear
to be overkill for a project I have due very soon. The project requires
that a digital signature be applied to an authorization of an e-form
(Request by a non commissioned officer) by his superior or superiors.

By "digital signature", the requirements are:

1) that a physical "mark" appear and
2) that the digital signature protects the document from tampering
(invalidates it if tampered with will do)

When the Request is printed, that mark should also appear.

Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital signature
be applied manually. This is problematic for the User base, an automated
solution must be sought.

I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an existing, open
source, with code and write the automating functions ourselves.

Comments are appreciated.
--
"You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself"
Ken Thompson "Reflections on Trusting Trust"
http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/

Ari wrote:
> There are many digital signature products on the market but they appear
> to be overkill for a project I have due very soon. The project requires
> that a digital signature be applied to an authorization of an e-form
> (Request by a non commissioned officer) by his superior or superiors.
>
> By "digital signature", the requirements are:
>
> 1) that a physical "mark" appear and
> 2) that the digital signature protects the document from tampering
> (invalidates it if tampered with will do)
>
> When the Request is printed, that mark should also appear.
>
> Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital signature
> be applied manually. This is problematic for the User base, an automated
> solution must be sought.
>
> I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an existing, open
> source, with code and write the automating functions ourselves.
>
> Comments are appreciated.

Begin here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...kage_id=188602

Bye,
Luca

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:40:05 +0100, Luca T. wrote:

> Ari wrote:
>> There are many digital signature products on the market but they appear
>> to be overkill for a project I have due very soon. The project requires
>> that a digital signature be applied to an authorization of an e-form
>> (Request by a non commissioned officer) by his superior or superiors.
>>
>> By "digital signature", the requirements are:
>>
>> 1) that a physical "mark" appear and
>> 2) that the digital signature protects the document from tampering
>> (invalidates it if tampered with will do)
>>
>> When the Request is printed, that mark should also appear.
>>
>> Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital signature
>> be applied manually. This is problematic for the User base, an automated
>> solution must be sought.
>>
>> I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an existing, open
>> source, with code and write the automating functions ourselves.
>>
>> Comments are appreciated.
>
> Begin here:
> http://sourceforge.net/project/showf...kage_id=188602
>
> Bye,
> Luca

Focus on Italian CAs?

Hello!
You wrote on Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:40:05 +0100:

A> Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital
A> signature be applied manually. This is problematic for the User base,
A> an automated solution must be sought.
??>> ??>> I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an
??>> existing, open source, with code and write the automating functions

Don't know about automation, but if you can do some coding, you can check
PDFBlackbox ( http://www.eldos.com/sbb/desc-pdf.php ), it can be used to
apply the signature and it doesn't require Acrobat. You can also use Acrobat
SDK, but you would need to have Acrobat installed on the system where you do
signing. PDFBlackbox is more practical from this point of view.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

"Eugene Mayevski" <mayevski@eldos.com> wrote in
news:fkvsn8$1ao9$1@behemoth.volia.net:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:40:05 +0100:
>
> A> Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital
> A> signature be applied manually. This is problematic for the User
> base, A> an automated solution must be sought.
> ??>> ??>> I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an
> ??>> existing, open source, with code and write the automating
> functions
>
> Don't know about automation, but if you can do some coding, you can
> check PDFBlackbox ( http://www.eldos.com/sbb/desc-pdf.php ), it can be
> used to apply the signature and it doesn't require Acrobat. You can
> also use Acrobat SDK, but you would need to have Acrobat installed on
> the system where you do signing. PDFBlackbox is more practical from
> this point of view.
>
> With best regards,
> Eugene Mayevski


Another possible commercial solution is Aloaha:

http://www.aloaha.com/wi-software-en/

Regards,

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:53:42 +0200, Eugene Mayevski wrote:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:40:05 +0100:
>
> A> Adobe PDF would be useable but it does require that a digital
> A> signature be applied manually. This is problematic for the User base,
> A> an automated solution must be sought.
> ??>> ??>> I am wondering if the best approach would be to find an
> ??>> existing, open source, with code and write the automating functions
>
> Don't know about automation, but if you can do some coding, you can check
> PDFBlackbox ( http://www.eldos.com/sbb/desc-pdf.php ), it can be used to
> apply the signature and it doesn't require Acrobat. You can also use Acrobat
> SDK, but you would need to have Acrobat installed on the system where you do
> signing. PDFBlackbox is more practical from this point of view.
>
> With best regards,
> Eugene Mayevski

Thanks Eugene, this looks like a solid alternative. By automatic, I meant
"without user intervention" as in selecting a particular checkbox
("approved" for instance) the having the software either recognize that
action, insert the signature (wherever appropriate) or we call to the app
to do so.

Btw, Here is something I don't necessarily;y agree, it says "Timestamping
is the vital part of the signing process, which certifies the moment, when
the signature is made. With PDFBlackbox you can apply the timestamp when
you sign the document..."

I suppose they assume that the user has been authenticated (identity) which
leads me to think why the signatory process couldn't be tied to the
verification process. hmmm....

On 27 Dec 2007 17:54:37 GMT, nemo_outis wrote:

>> Don't know about automation, but if you can do some coding, you can
>> check PDFBlackbox ( http://www.eldos.com/sbb/desc-pdf.php ), it can be
>> used to apply the signature and it doesn't require Acrobat. You can
>> also use Acrobat SDK, but you would need to have Acrobat installed on
>> the system where you do signing. PDFBlackbox is more practical from
>> this point of view.
>>
>> With best regards,
>> Eugene Mayevski
>
> Another possible commercial solution is Aloaha:
>
> http://www.aloaha.com/wi-software-en/
>
> Regards,

nemo you woof - woof dog you, thanks for the contribute! Solid looking
stuff. Of course, the Customer has a new requirement (wtf do we have
Statements Of Work and Descriptions and Specs for, eh?)

A hand written look-a-like signature in a particular signatory block.

Found this

www.xyzmo.com

Whattya think?

Hello!
You wrote on Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:00:27 -0500:

A> I suppose they assume that the user has been authenticated (identity)
A> which leads me to think why the signatory process couldn't be tied to
A> the verification process. hmmm....

I am not sure that I understand your point/question. The problem with
absense of timestamping is that when the signature is verified several years
later, the certificate, used to sign the document, will most likely be
expired. If there's no timestamp, the validator will alert the user that the
certificate has expired. If the certificate is revoked and this is
discovered by the validator, the validator will complain about this too.

Timestamping lets the validator check when the timestamp was made and not to
alert the user about the expired certificate. If the certificate was
revoked, the validator will compare the revocation moment with the timestamp
and will have a chance to figure out whether the signature was made with a
valid or revoked certificate.

Timestamping authority timestamps the signature (to be precise, the hash of
some data), it doesn't care about what was used to produce the hash.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

Hello!
You wrote on Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:20:03 -0500:

A> stuff. Of course, the Customer has a new requirement (wtf do we have
A> Statements Of Work and Descriptions and Specs for, eh?)
A> A hand written look-a-like signature in a particular signatory block.

Did you check how the Acrobat behaves? You can put the signature image
there. This is how I sign the invoices - I use both the signature image for
printing and the digital signature to prove the authenticity of the
signature image and of the document.

With PDFBlackbox you can do this too. In fact you can customize the
signature appearance in any way you like.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:23:37 +0200, Eugene Mayevski wrote:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:20:03 -0500:
>
> A> stuff. Of course, the Customer has a new requirement (wtf do we have
> A> Statements Of Work and Descriptions and Specs for, eh?)
> A> A hand written look-a-like signature in a particular signatory block.
>
> Did you check how the Acrobat behaves? You can put the signature image
> there. This is how I sign the invoices - I use both the signature image for
> printing and the digital signature to prove the authenticity of the
> signature image and of the document.
>
> With PDFBlackbox you can do this too. In fact you can customize the
> signature appearance in any way you like.
>
> With best regards,
> Eugene Mayevski

By "look-a-like, I mean that the signature needs to be a duplicate of the
Signer's handwriting. The only way I know to do this (easily) is by using a
digital pad, then having that signature inserted.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:22:00 +0200, Eugene Mayevski wrote:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:00:27 -0500:
>
> A> I suppose they assume that the user has been authenticated (identity)
> A> which leads me to think why the signatory process couldn't be tied to
> A> the verification process. hmmm....
>
> I am not sure that I understand your point/question. The problem with
> absense of timestamping is that when the signature is verified several years
> later, the certificate, used to sign the document, will most likely be
> expired. If there's no timestamp, the validator will alert the user that the
> certificate has expired. If the certificate is revoked and this is
> discovered by the validator, the validator will complain about this too.
>
> Timestamping lets the validator check when the timestamp was made and not to
> alert the user about the expired certificate. If the certificate was
> revoked, the validator will compare the revocation moment with the timestamp
> and will have a chance to figure out whether the signature was made with a
> valid or revoked certificate.
>
> Timestamping authority timestamps the signature (to be precise, the hash of
> some data), it doesn't care about what was used to produce the hash.

I see what your saying but the most important process is the authentication
of the *identity* of the signer. If there is no ID that is verified, then
the rest doesn't matter. I can use your Adobe on your computer to sign in
your name as long as I can get to your software.

Which is my point. Why not incorporate the system that determines that it
is *you* accessing your Adobe, or PDFBlackBox seamlessly with the digital
signature capabilities? Rather than have two or more programs to do this.

Hello!
You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:14:03 -0500:

A> By "look-a-like, I mean that the signature needs to be a duplicate of
A> the Signer's handwriting. The only way I know to do this (easily) is by
A> using a digital pad, then having that signature inserted.

This is what I am saying about. Scan a signature into the graphic file and
insert the graphic file.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

Hello!
You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:22:28 -0500:

A> I see what your saying but the most important process is the
A> authentication of the *identity* of the signer. If there is no ID that
A> is verified, then the rest doesn't matter. I can use your Adobe on your
A> computer to sign in your name as long as I can get to your software.

That's a totally different story. Digital signatures don't prove the
identity of the user, they prove the set of "what the person has" and "what
the person knows". With digital means you can't reliably prove "what the
person is", i.e. whether the signature or fingerprint - once they are placed
into the document, they can be duplicated.

Example: you can copy the signature (or fingerprint) from the document I
signed, then come to my computer and use it to create another document.
Afaik there's no reliable solution for this problem.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:51:20 +0200, Eugene Mayevski wrote:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:22:28 -0500:
>
> A> I see what your saying but the most important process is the
> A> authentication of the *identity* of the signer. If there is no ID that
> A> is verified, then the rest doesn't matter. I can use your Adobe on your
> A> computer to sign in your name as long as I can get to your software.
>
> That's a totally different story. Digital signatures don't prove the
> identity of the user, they prove the set of "what the person has" and "what
> the person knows". With digital means you can't reliably prove "what the
> person is", i.e. whether the signature or fingerprint - once they are placed
> into the document, they can be duplicated.
>
> Example: you can copy the signature (or fingerprint) from the document I
> signed, then come to my computer and use it to create another document.
> Afaik there's no reliable solution for this problem.
>
> With best regards,
> Eugene Mayevski

Yes, that is what I am saying, why not have a single program that will do
both? Your identity is carried to the signature; if the signature is
queried, the ID proof could emerge as well.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:48:25 +0200, Eugene Mayevski wrote:

> Hello!
> You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:14:03 -0500:
>
> A> By "look-a-like, I mean that the signature needs to be a duplicate of
> A> the Signer's handwriting. The only way I know to do this (easily) is by
> A> using a digital pad, then having that signature inserted.
>
> This is what I am saying about. Scan a signature into the graphic file and
> insert the graphic file.
>
> With best regards,
> Eugene Mayevski

Yeah, I see the issue is that we have dumb users and the concept of having
them digitize their signatures, then manually add the signature (with the
graphic file) isn't going to work. Which is why I am thinking of coding the
ID security, the digital signature capability and the signature look-a-like
insertion all into one.

In Message-ID:<flae2r$8sj$1@behemoth.volia.net>,
"Eugene Mayevski" <mayevski@eldos.com> wrote:

>Hello!
>You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:22:28 -0500:
>
> A> I see what your saying but the most important process is the
> A> authentication of the *identity* of the signer. If there is no ID that
> A> is verified, then the rest doesn't matter. I can use your Adobe on your
> A> computer to sign in your name as long as I can get to your software.
>
>That's a totally different story. Digital signatures don't prove the
>identity of the user, they prove the set of "what the person has" and "what
>the person knows". With digital means you can't reliably prove "what the
>person is", i.e. whether the signature or fingerprint - once they are placed
>into the document, they can be duplicated.
>
>Example: you can copy the signature (or fingerprint) from the document I
>signed, then come to my computer and use it to create another document.
>Afaik there's no reliable solution for this problem.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

You're forgetting that a good digital signature is a
transformation of a secure hash of the original. Take this
signature and see if it works with any other document:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use
<http://www.pgp.com>

iQCVAwUBR3k7HkktjQmm3DQRAQFsLgP+ILXyjljJPm3A3xWt1X F6xoS4sK9W0t8e
rYjnAG5M04CJtL3yqNgLj3S+ntOAMHauzvDfTKX3ZEWAjNc1zz XI+jt2y7GtpYsu
vevdhu7Fw+kMQw07l1VqamNgeQTda2HCZMg5qDGzJltEvVOj70 373sYGrOWKKWB4
PFhyX4vxEQQ=
=88A3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" intergate "dot" com
Looking for a z/OS (IBM mainframe) systems programmer position

Arthur T. <arthur@munged.invalid> writes:

>In Message-ID:<flae2r$8sj$1@behemoth.volia.net>,
>"Eugene Mayevski" <mayevski@eldos.com> wrote:

>>Hello!
>>You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:22:28 -0500:
>>
>> A> I see what your saying but the most important process is the
>> A> authentication of the *identity* of the signer. If there is no ID that
>> A> is verified, then the rest doesn't matter. I can use your Adobe on your
>> A> computer to sign in your name as long as I can get to your software.
>>
>>That's a totally different story. Digital signatures don't prove the
>>identity of the user, they prove the set of "what the person has" and "what
>>the person knows". With digital means you can't reliably prove "what the
>>person is", i.e. whether the signature or fingerprint - once they are placed
>>into the document, they can be duplicated.
>>
>>Example: you can copy the signature (or fingerprint) from the document I
>>signed, then come to my computer and use it to create another document.
>>Afaik there's no reliable solution for this problem.

Well, no. Digital signatures of a document usually combine something which
uniquely identifies the document with something you have.
Thus take the AES sum of the document, and then encrypt that with your
private key. Anyone can then use your public key to unencrypt it and check
whether the AES signature agrees with their generated signature of the
document. Noone else can do that. They can take the AES sum of the
ducument, but cannot encrypt it with your private key.
Ie, you CANNOT use the signature from document 1 to sign document 2. The
AES hashes will not agree.




> You're forgetting that a good digital signature is a
> transformation of a secure hash of the original. Take this
> signature and see if it works with any other document:

Agreed. Just amplifying.

Hello!
You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:23:21 -0500:

AT> You're forgetting that a good digital signature is a
AT> transformation of a secure hash of the original. Take this
AT> signature and see if it works with any other document:

I was talking about graphic signature or a fingerprint, i.e. "what the
person is". Please read more attentively.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

Hello!
You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:40:52 GMT:

U> Well, no. Digital signatures of a document usually combine something
U> which uniquely identifies the document with something you have.

I was talking about graphic signature or a fingerprint, i.e. "what the
person is". Please read more attentively.

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

In Message-ID:<fld3uj$1mf$1@behemoth.volia.net>,
"Eugene Mayevski" <mayevski@eldos.com> wrote:

>Hello!
>You wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:23:21 -0500:
>
> AT> You're forgetting that a good digital signature is a
> AT> transformation of a secure hash of the original. Take this
> AT> signature and see if it works with any other document:
>
>I was talking about graphic signature or a fingerprint, i.e. "what the
>person is". Please read more attentively.

And in the original post, Ari was looking for:

>By "digital signature", the requirements are:
>
>1) that a physical "mark" appear and
>2) that the digital signature protects the document from tampering
>(invalidates it if tampered with will do)

I replied under the (mistaken) impression that *you* had read
more attentively.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" intergate "dot" com
Looking for a z/OS (IBM mainframe) systems programmer position

Hello!
You wrote on Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:53:12 -0500:

AT> And in the original post, Ari was looking for:

.... And if we continue, we will come to the talk about the look-a-like
signature (i.e. the image of the hand-made signature)

With best regards,
Eugene Mayevski

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It can too save unlike entitled confused tours.

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Oris, except for accents capable and broken, crys under it, penetrating
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v their element.