As the finder of some unclaimed lost property, I came into possession of an
IBM ThinkPad 40r with WinXP-Pro OS.
Unfortunately it has a Power On Password, three attempts and you're locked
out. I've tried the service manual solution i.e.: remove the cmos battery,
as well as short the pins to clear the bios but the POP doesn't clear. If I
interpret it right this means a supervisory password was also set. I don't
care about the drive contents, I just want to wipe it and install my own OS.
Can I do this, or will I have to buy a new drive? Does the POP reside in HD
or the bios itself? I'm not much a computer geek, but I'm willing to try.
It's a freebie anyway.
--
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."----Milton.
"Why, this is Hell; nor am I out of it!"----Marlowe.
Jim Watt wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:40:57 GMT, "a.draper" <a.draper@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>As the finder of some unclaimed lost property, I came into possession of an
>>IBM ThinkPad 40r with WinXP-Pro OS.
>>Unfortunately it has a Power On Password, three attempts and you're locked
>>out. I've tried the service manual solution i.e.: remove the cmos battery,
>>as well as short the pins to clear the bios but the POP doesn't clear. If I
>>interpret it right this means a supervisory password was also set. I don't
>>care about the drive contents, I just want to wipe it and install my own OS.
>>Can I do this, or will I have to buy a new drive? Does the POP reside in HD
>>or the bios itself? I'm not much a computer geek, but I'm willing to try.
>>It's a freebie anyway.
>
>
> If the HD password has been set you will have to get a new
> HD.
>
> Try clearing the password with the drive removed. Its generally
> easy to get out with IBM thinkpads. New drives are cheap
> enough and removing a disk password is theoretically possible
> but I haven't managed it yet.
>
> There are data recoveery companies with a solution but the cost
> is a lot more than a new drive.
> --
> Jim Watt
> http://www.gibnet.com
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. As I stated, I'm not
interested in the data,I just hated the idea of throwing away a
perfectly good 30g HD. I was concerned if I bought a new HD something in
the BIOS might render it unusable. I'm not very technical, but working
on something that is basically usable is very liberating.If I do get a
new HD should it be the identical model as the old one?
a.draper wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>
>> If the HD password has been set you will have to get a new
>> HD.
>>
>> Try clearing the password with the drive removed. Its generally
>> easy to get out with IBM thinkpads. New drives are cheap enough and
>> removing a disk password is theoretically possible
>> but I haven't managed it yet.
>>
>> There are data recoveery companies with a solution but the cost
>> is a lot more than a new drive.
>> --
>> Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
>
>
> Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. As I stated, I'm not
> interested in the data,I just hated the idea of throwing away a
> perfectly good 30g HD. I was concerned if I bought a new HD something in
> the BIOS might render it unusable. I'm not very technical, but working
> on something that is basically usable is very liberating.If I do get a
> new HD should it be the identical model as the old one?
You were certainly right about how easy is was to remove the HD- one
screw. I popped it out and tried booting without HD, but still get black
screen password logon. Does that mean I might as well junk the whole
thing? C'est la Vie.
"a.draper" wrote:
>
> a.draper wrote:
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>
> >> If the HD password has been set you will have to get a new
> >> HD.
> >>
> >> Try clearing the password with the drive removed. Its generally
> >> easy to get out with IBM thinkpads. New drives are cheap enough and
> >> removing a disk password is theoretically possible
> >> but I haven't managed it yet.
> >>
> >> There are data recoveery companies with a solution but the cost
> >> is a lot more than a new drive.
> >> --
> >> Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. As I stated, I'm not
> > interested in the data,I just hated the idea of throwing away a
> > perfectly good 30g HD. I was concerned if I bought a new HD something in
> > the BIOS might render it unusable. I'm not very technical, but working
> > on something that is basically usable is very liberating.If I do get a
> > new HD should it be the identical model as the old one?
>
> You were certainly right about how easy is was to remove the HD- one
> screw. I popped it out and tried booting without HD, but still get black
> screen password logon. Does that mean I might as well junk the whole
> thing? C'est la Vie.
The hard drive password is "attached" to the hard drive, itself.
Notan wrote:
> "a.draper" wrote:
>
>>a.draper wrote:
>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If the HD password has been set you will have to get a new
>>>>HD.
>>>>
>>>>Try clearing the password with the drive removed. Its generally
>>>>easy to get out with IBM thinkpads. New drives are cheap enough and
>>>>removing a disk password is theoretically possible
>>>>but I haven't managed it yet.
>>>>
>>>>There are data recoveery companies with a solution but the cost
>>>>is a lot more than a new drive.
>>>>--
>>>>Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. As I stated, I'm not
>>>interested in the data,I just hated the idea of throwing away a
>>>perfectly good 30g HD. I was concerned if I bought a new HD something in
>>>the BIOS might render it unusable. I'm not very technical, but working
>>>on something that is basically usable is very liberating.If I do get a
>>>new HD should it be the identical model as the old one?
>>
>>You were certainly right about how easy is was to remove the HD- one
>>screw. I popped it out and tried booting without HD, but still get black
>>screen password logon. Does that mean I might as well junk the whole
>>thing? C'est la Vie.
>
>
> The hard drive password is "attached" to the hard drive, itself.
>
> A new drive should get you up and running.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> Notan
Ok, now I'm really revealing my ignorance, but if it boots to the black
password screen without any hard drive at all, won't it do so with a new
one as well? Thanks to every one who replied. Didn't mean to be a PITA.
a.draper wrote:
> Notan wrote:
>
>> "a.draper" wrote:
>>
>>> a.draper wrote:
>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the HD password has been set you will have to get a new
>>>>> HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try clearing the password with the drive removed. Its generally
>>>>> easy to get out with IBM thinkpads. New drives are cheap enough and
>>>>> removing a disk password is theoretically possible
>>>>> but I haven't managed it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are data recoveery companies with a solution but the cost
>>>>> is a lot more than a new drive.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a try. As I stated, I'm not
>>>> interested in the data,I just hated the idea of throwing away a
>>>> perfectly good 30g HD. I was concerned if I bought a new HD
>>>> something in
>>>> the BIOS might render it unusable. I'm not very technical, but working
>>>> on something that is basically usable is very liberating.If I do get a
>>>> new HD should it be the identical model as the old one?
>>>
>>>
>>> You were certainly right about how easy is was to remove the HD- one
>>> screw. I popped it out and tried booting without HD, but still get black
>>> screen password logon. Does that mean I might as well junk the whole
>>> thing? C'est la Vie.
>>
>>
>>
>> The hard drive password is "attached" to the hard drive, itself.
>>
>> A new drive should get you up and running.
>>
>> Good Luck!
>>
>> Notan
>
> Ok, now I'm really revealing my ignorance, but if it boots to the black
> password screen without any hard drive at all, won't it do so with a new
> one as well? Thanks to every one who replied. Didn't mean to be a PITA.
That sounds like good trouble-stooting. Seems like to me the password
on the bios has not been cleared yet. Have you considered taking it to
a certified repair center to have the password cleared? That would be
cheating, but it is probably not a lot more than a new hard-drive that
might not work. I have never heard of a hard-drive-attached rom
passwording feature. This is very interesting.
Wolf Halton wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> That sounds like good trouble-stooting. Seems like to me the password
> on the bios has not been cleared yet. Have you considered taking it to
> a certified repair center to have the password cleared? That would be
> cheating, but it is probably not a lot more than a new hard-drive that
> might not work. I have never heard of a hard-drive-attached rom
> passwording feature. This is very interesting.
Here's a pretty good explanation, from Barry Watzman, in comp.sys.laptops.
The OP was questioning how to reset a hard drive password...
"This mechanism is entirely in the hard drive itself, and the design
philosophy that the hardware should become useless before the data
should become available without the proper password.
Basically, at power-on, you have to supply the password before the drive
will even respond to any IDE data transfer commands -- including the
commands that let the BIOS recognize that the hard drive exists. Until
the proper password is entered, the command to enter the password is the
only command that the drive will respond to. Therefore, until it's
entered, you can't use FDISK or anything else, because the drive
effectively doesn't yet exist.
It's not physically impossible to reset the password, but the knowledge
of how to do it is generally unknown, and the equipment to do it is
generally not available. There are a few places (very few) that offer
the service, but the cost is higher than the cost of a new hard drive,
so it only makes sense if it's the data, rather than the drive, that's
important. [and, hopefully, the places that can reset it ask lots and
lots of questions first]"
Notan wrote:
> Wolf Halton wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>
>>That sounds like good trouble-stooting. Seems like to me the password
>>on the bios has not been cleared yet. Have you considered taking it to
>>a certified repair center to have the password cleared? That would be
>>cheating, but it is probably not a lot more than a new hard-drive that
>>might not work. I have never heard of a hard-drive-attached rom
>>passwording feature. This is very interesting.
>
>
> Here's a pretty good explanation, from Barry Watzman, in comp.sys.laptops.
>
> The OP was questioning how to reset a hard drive password...
>
> "This mechanism is entirely in the hard drive itself, and the design
> philosophy that the hardware should become useless before the data
> should become available without the proper password.
>
> Basically, at power-on, you have to supply the password before the drive
> will even respond to any IDE data transfer commands -- including the
> commands that let the BIOS recognize that the hard drive exists. Until
> the proper password is entered, the command to enter the password is the
> only command that the drive will respond to. Therefore, until it's
> entered, you can't use FDISK or anything else, because the drive
> effectively doesn't yet exist.
>
> It's not physically impossible to reset the password, but the knowledge
> of how to do it is generally unknown, and the equipment to do it is
> generally not available. There are a few places (very few) that offer
> the service, but the cost is higher than the cost of a new hard drive,
> so it only makes sense if it's the data, rather than the drive, that's
> important. [and, hopefully, the places that can reset it ask lots and
> lots of questions first]"
>
> Notan
At last we're getting somewhere! Let me see if I can sum up the
situation correctly. If a HD password has been set the Bios cannot
process any commands in the presence of a set HD, OR the absence of any
HD at all. BUT the presence of an HD without a set password will allow
the Bios to process commands normally without seeking a password. Is
this a fair statement of the facts?
Jim Watt <jimwatt@aol.no_way> wrote in
news:qhf8d19eivn8je4tlm2j6jmti43j70n9hq@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:32:02 GMT, "a.draper" <adraper@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Notan wrote:
>>> Wolf Halton wrote:
>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>That sounds like good trouble-stooting. Seems like to me the
>>>>password on the bios has not been cleared yet. Have you considered
>>>>taking it to a certified repair center to have the password cleared?
>>>> That would be cheating, but it is probably not a lot more than a
>>>>new hard-drive that might not work. I have never heard of a
>>>>hard-drive-attached rom passwording feature. This is very
>>>>interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's a pretty good explanation, from Barry Watzman, in
>>> comp.sys.laptops.
>>>
>>> The OP was questioning how to reset a hard drive password...
>>>
>>> "This mechanism is entirely in the hard drive itself, and the design
>>> philosophy that the hardware should become useless before the data
>>> should become available without the proper password.
>>>
>>> Basically, at power-on, you have to supply the password before the
>>> drive will even respond to any IDE data transfer commands --
>>> including the commands that let the BIOS recognize that the hard
>>> drive exists. Until the proper password is entered, the command to
>>> enter the password is the only command that the drive will respond
>>> to. Therefore, until it's entered, you can't use FDISK or anything
>>> else, because the drive effectively doesn't yet exist.
>>>
>>> It's not physically impossible to reset the password, but the
>>> knowledge of how to do it is generally unknown, and the equipment to
>>> do it is generally not available. There are a few places (very few)
>>> that offer the service, but the cost is higher than the cost of a
>>> new hard drive, so it only makes sense if it's the data, rather than
>>> the drive, that's important. [and, hopefully, the places that can
>>> reset it ask lots and lots of questions first]"
>>>
>>> Notan
>>
>>At last we're getting somewhere! Let me see if I can sum up the
>>situation correctly. If a HD password has been set the Bios cannot
>>process any commands in the presence of a set HD, OR the absence of
>>any HD at all. BUT the presence of an HD without a set password will
>>allow the Bios to process commands normally without seeking a
>>password. Is this a fair statement of the facts?
>
> Basically yet, the first thing the BIOS does is check the HD for a
> password. The password is recorded in the non-volatile memory
> of the drive electronics.
>
> I have a working laptop which did have a drive protected by a
> password.
>
> --
> Jim Watt
> http://www.gibnet.com
>
Actually the IDE standard supports TWO passwords directly on the HD itself:
the first a user password, the second a master (administrator) password.
There are methods of resetting, etc. the user password while retaining the
data on the HD; the only method of removing the administrator password
(unless you already know it!) entails losing all data on the drive.
The standard tool (if your BIOS doesn't support this directly - and many
don't!) is ATAPWD by Alex Mina.
Jim Watt wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2005 00:43:33 GMT, "nemo_outis" <abc@xyz.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Basically yet, the first thing the BIOS does is check the HD for a
>>>password. The password is recorded in the non-volatile memory
>>>of the drive electronics.
>>>
>>>I have a working laptop which did have a drive protected by a
>>>password.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jim Watt
>>>http://www.gibnet.com
>>>
>>
>>Actually the IDE standard supports TWO passwords directly on the HD itself:
>>the first a user password, the second a master (administrator) password.
>>There are methods of resetting, etc. the user password while retaining the
>>data on the HD; the only method of removing the administrator password
>>(unless you already know it!) entails losing all data on the drive.
>>
>>The standard tool (if your BIOS doesn't support this directly - and many
>>don't!) is ATAPWD by Alex Mina.
>
>
> Now that looks interesting;
>
> I spent a lot of time reading the ATA3 instruction set and discovering
> what the default master password was with a view to writing something
> like that, but haven't done anything in assembler since the days of
> CP/M and its not trivial.
>
> I see that program allows for a security erase which restores the
> disk to its original bare state, which is what the OP would be happy
> with..
>
> Given that the key can be 32 bytes in length, its a very strong
> method of protecting a disk's contents, although I guess a
> really determined highly technical party could get at the eeprom
> data.
>
> Its added to my toolbox, now to get that pesky locked drive
> out ...
> --
> Jim Watt
> http://www.gibnet.com
I'd like to thank everyone who kept this thread going, your advice has
been very helpful and much appreciated. I am resigned to getting a new
HD. At under $100.00 that's not too much. As I mentioned in my OP, I do
believe a second, Supervisory password was set as well. In light of
this, is it the consensus that simply installing a new HD make this
laptop usable? Thank you all again for your patience.
POP removal. 
Linear Mode
