2 routers

I'm trying to extend my wireless signal into my backyard. When I
position my router (Netgear MR814v2) to reach all rooms in the house,
the backyard is beyond range. So I added a second router (another
Netgear MR814v2) with one of its LAN ports wired via Ethernet to a LAN
port on the first router. The WAN port on the second router is unused.
The second router sits next to a window facing the backyard and is on
a different channel than the first router. It seems to work but I'm
wondering if anyone sees problems I'm overlooking. So now I can roam
anywhere within the house and pick up a strong signal from Router #1
on my notebook. When I go outside into the backyard, I tell the client
radio to connect using the SSID of Router #2 and I also get a strong
signal. Here's how I configured the routers:

Router #1
---------
Get dynamic IP and DNS addresses from ISP
Use Router as DHCP Server
Router IP Address 192.168.0.1
Channel 11

Router #2
---------
Static IP Address
IP 192.168.0.50
Mask 255.255.255.0
Gateway 192.168.0.1

DNS servers (got these using ipconfig /all)
65.83.241.181
67.32.118.46

Router IP Address 192.168.0.100
uncheck Use Router as DHCP Server (not a DHCP server)
Channel 1

all other settings at default

On the client end, I'm using a low cost Zonet ZEW2501 usb adapter.
Everything seems to work if I use static addresses on Router #2. At
first I thought I could let those be assigned automatically but that
doesn't seem to work. Is that because I need to use Router #1's IP as
the Gateway for Router #2? I hope I don't run into trouble by using a
static DNS address. Is the DNS address likely to change (I have cable
Internet service)? I hope I'm asking sensible questions. Setting
things up has been sort of like looking into a mirror backwards :)

I'd appreciate ideas from anyone doing something similar.

My next step is to improve the antennas on Router #2 and the client
radios using some great suggestions from Jeff Liebermann and others
posting here.

Bruce

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 10:52:33 -0400, bjs555 <aaa@bbb.com> wrote:


>Router #1
>---------
>Get dynamic IP and DNS addresses from ISP
>Use Router as DHCP Server
>Router IP Address 192.168.0.1
>Channel 11
>
>Router #2
>---------
>Static IP Address
>IP 192.168.0.50
>Mask 255.255.255.0
>Gateway 192.168.0.1
>

>Everything seems to work if I use static addresses on Router #2. At
>first I thought I could let those be assigned automatically but that
>doesn't seem to work. Is that because I need to use Router #1's IP as
>the Gateway for Router #2?

I don't think so, it's probably because it's only the WAN port on
Router #2 that would act as a DHCP client (to Router #1) not the LAN
ports?

I hope I don't run into trouble by using a
>static DNS address. Is the DNS address likely to change (I have cable
>Internet service)?

They shouldn't change but would normally be 'given' to Router #1 by
your ISP and that in turn would issue them to all the client machines
(even those hanging wired or wirelessly off Router #2)?

I believe the reason you don't simply connect the WAN port of Router
#2 to the LAN port of Router #1 (like any other DHCP client) is that
some of this important setup stuff isn't routable (and that's what
happens when you go from LAN to WAN)?

>I hope I'm asking sensible questions.

Seem so to me ;-)

Setting
>things up has been sort of like looking into a mirror backwards :)

It *can* be very complicated and I only generally know what to do to
make stuff work rather than all the details re *why / how* it works
;-)
>
>I'd appreciate ideas from anyone doing something similar.

That's ok then .. ;-)
>
>My next step is to improve the antennas on Router #2 and the client
>radios using some great suggestions from Jeff Liebermann and others
>posting here.

Yep. If Router #2 is only *supposed* to feed clients in one direction
then directional aerial(s) (Yagi?) could help the range (rather than
just going for higher db omnidirectional ones).

All the best ..

T i m

bjs555 wrote:
> I'm trying to extend my wireless signal into my backyard. When I
> position my router (Netgear MR814v2) to reach all rooms in the house,
> the backyard is beyond range. So I added a second router (another
> Netgear MR814v2) with one of its LAN ports wired via Ethernet to a LAN
> port on the first router. The WAN port on the second router is unused.
> The second router sits next to a window facing the backyard and is on
> a different channel than the first router. It seems to work but I'm
> wondering if anyone sees problems I'm overlooking. So now I can roam
> anywhere within the house and pick up a strong signal from Router #1
> on my notebook. When I go outside into the backyard, I tell the client
> radio to connect using the SSID of Router #2 and I also get a strong
> signal. Here's how I configured the routers:
>
> Router #1
> ---------
> Get dynamic IP and DNS addresses from ISP
> Use Router as DHCP Server
> Router IP Address 192.168.0.1
> Channel 11
>
> Router #2
> ---------
> Static IP Address
> IP 192.168.0.50
> Mask 255.255.255.0
> Gateway 192.168.0.1
>
> DNS servers (got these using ipconfig /all)
> 65.83.241.181
> 67.32.118.46
>
> Router IP Address 192.168.0.100
> uncheck Use Router as DHCP Server (not a DHCP server)
> Channel 1
>

I think you should be able to connect to the WAN port on router #2 and
keep the DHCP turned off as you have it on that router and any clients
to that AP should get its DHCP from router #1. I don't think you will
need to manually have to assign the DNS to router #2 but sometimes I
have seen that you do.

It seems like you say that router #2's IP is set to .50 and .100 which
is it?
I think you should set it to a higher number liike .250 so to make sure
Router #1 does not give out a .50 address and get an IP conflict. You
would still be able to access the router by putting in its IP addess
(.250) in your browser.
Or you can set Router #1 to only be able to give out say 50 IP address
like from .100 to .150 or where ever it happens to start assigning them
from and to be sure it won't assign one that you have given to Router #2.


> all other settings at default
>
> On the client end, I'm using a low cost Zonet ZEW2501 usb adapter.
> Everything seems to work if I use static addresses on Router #2. At
> first I thought I could let those be assigned automatically but that
> doesn't seem to work. Is that because I need to use Router #1's IP as
> the Gateway for Router #2? I hope I don't run into trouble by using a
> static DNS address. Is the DNS address likely to change (I have cable
> Internet service)? I hope I'm asking sensible questions. Setting
> things up has been sort of like looking into a mirror backwards :)
>
> I'd appreciate ideas from anyone doing something similar.
>
> My next step is to improve the antennas on Router #2 and the client
> radios using some great suggestions from Jeff Liebermann and others
> posting here.
>
> Bruce


One last thought is do your AP's do WDS??

Thank you both for your follow up posts.

>I think you should be able to connect to the WAN port on router #2 and
>keep the DHCP turned off as you have it on that router and any clients
>to that AP should get its DHCP from router #1. I don't think you will
>need to manually have to assign the DNS to router #2 but sometimes I
>have seen that you do.

I just tried that. Interesting result but no joy. The client on Router
#2 shows a strange IP address (not 192.168.0.x like I'd expect). When
I'm connected wirelessly to Router #2 and run ipconfig, I get:

IP 169.254.203.216 (where did that come from???, it's not the IP
assigned to Router #1 by my ISP)
Mask 255.255.255.0
Gateway blank (don't understand why there is nothing here)

No luck getting onto the net with those settings. I can't set my
router to get a dynamic ip address and static dns addresses. I have to
have both the ip and dns set to dynamic or have them both set to
static. I had them both as dynamic for the test above.

>It seems like you say that router #2's IP is set to .50 and .100 which
>is it?
>I think you should set it to a higher number liike .250 so to make sure
>Router #1 does not give out a .50 address and get an IP conflict. You
>would still be able to access the router by putting in its IP addess
>(.250) in your browser.
>Or you can set Router #1 to only be able to give out say 50 IP address
>like from .100 to .150 or where ever it happens to start assigning them
>from and to be sure it won't assign one that you have given to Router #2.

That's a good idea about .250 in general but Router #1 DHCP assigns
IPs starting with 192.168.0.2 and I don't expect to have more than 48
clients (unless I win the lottery :)

The .100 address is the one I use to get to the Router #2 config
screen.

I'm confused by the way Netgear asks for those addresses in the config
screens. I put the first .50 address in a section labeled Basic
Settings where there are also fields to enter the Mask, Gateway, and
DNS servers. I can't leave those fields blank or it won't let me turn
off dynamic addressing. When I connect with a client to Router #2, the
address shown by ipconfig is 192.168.0.4 which seems to come from
Router #1. I can't get pings back from 192.168.0.50. I can ping and
connect to 192.168.0.100 which gives me the Router #2 config screen.
So I don't know why .50 works of if it can be anything different. As
far as I can tell, that .50 address isn't used anywhere. I didn't
think much about it when I put it in except that I figured it should
be higher than the number of clients. Any ideas? I also don't know
what will happen if I try to connect more than one client to Router
#2.

>One last thought is do your AP's do WDS??

Unfortunately (or the opposite from some points of view), no.

Thanks,
Bruce

>It seems like you say that router #2's IP is set to .50 and .100 which
>is it?

I forgot to say in the message above that there's another section in
the Netgear Router #2 config screen named LAN TCP/IP Setup where I put
in the address 192.168.0.100. So there are 2 config screens where I
entered numbers. I put .50 in the Basic Settings screen under static
IP and .100 in the LAN TCP/IP Setup screen. I don't understand why
there are 2 sections or why the .50 address is needed. I can get to
the Router #2 configuration screens by browsing to 192.168.0.100. If I
enter 192.168.0.50, I just get a "Page Cannot be Displayed" timeout.
Also, I can't ping 192.168.0.50 so it doesn't seem to be an address on
my network. What is it?

Bruce

Well, I tried a few other things and thought I'd let you know what
happened in case it helps someone else.

It seems that none of the IP, Mask, Gateway, or DNS address settings
in the Basic Settings configuration screen matter at all. I put in
crazy numbers for all of them and things still worked fine. As long as
I tell Router #2 to use static settings not dynamic settings, things
work. The actual values of the static settings are ignored. I suppose
they apply only to the WAN port.

I also tried connecting a second wireless client to Router #2 and it
worked fine. So I can have multiple clients connected through the
additional router.

Bruce

The 169.254.X.X address is Microsoft's default address for DHCP when it
cannot locate a DHCP server to obtain an address.
"169." is an address that Windows will simply make up in order to have an
address - but most things won't work.
169.254.x.x addresses (not 169.x.x.x) are from IP autoconfiguration. These
are usually obtained when a DHCP server is unavailable. You should not be
seeing these addresses from the Internet. If your router has one of these
addresses, it is most likely it couldn't talk to your ISPs DHCP server.
http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;220874


"bjs555" <aaa@bbb.com> wrote in message
news:6qptj199lvfb3fifgggf694vdct7uq7t0d@4ax.com...
> Thank you both for your follow up posts.
>
>>I think you should be able to connect to the WAN port on router #2 and
>>keep the DHCP turned off as you have it on that router and any clients
>>to that AP should get its DHCP from router #1. I don't think you will
>>need to manually have to assign the DNS to router #2 but sometimes I
>>have seen that you do.
>
> I just tried that. Interesting result but no joy. The client on Router
> #2 shows a strange IP address (not 192.168.0.x like I'd expect). When
> I'm connected wirelessly to Router #2 and run ipconfig, I get:
>
> IP 169.254.203.216 (where did that come from???, it's not the IP
> assigned to Router #1 by my ISP)
> Mask 255.255.255.0
> Gateway blank (don't understand why there is nothing here)
>
> No luck getting onto the net with those settings. I can't set my
> router to get a dynamic ip address and static dns addresses. I have to
> have both the ip and dns set to dynamic or have them both set to
> static. I had them both as dynamic for the test above.
>
>>It seems like you say that router #2's IP is set to .50 and .100 which
>>is it?
>>I think you should set it to a higher number liike .250 so to make sure
>>Router #1 does not give out a .50 address and get an IP conflict. You
>>would still be able to access the router by putting in its IP addess
>>(.250) in your browser.
>>Or you can set Router #1 to only be able to give out say 50 IP address
>>like from .100 to .150 or where ever it happens to start assigning them
>>from and to be sure it won't assign one that you have given to Router #2.
>
> That's a good idea about .250 in general but Router #1 DHCP assigns
> IPs starting with 192.168.0.2 and I don't expect to have more than 48
> clients (unless I win the lottery :)
>
> The .100 address is the one I use to get to the Router #2 config
> screen.
>
> I'm confused by the way Netgear asks for those addresses in the config
> screens. I put the first .50 address in a section labeled Basic
> Settings where there are also fields to enter the Mask, Gateway, and
> DNS servers. I can't leave those fields blank or it won't let me turn
> off dynamic addressing. When I connect with a client to Router #2, the
> address shown by ipconfig is 192.168.0.4 which seems to come from
> Router #1. I can't get pings back from 192.168.0.50. I can ping and
> connect to 192.168.0.100 which gives me the Router #2 config screen.
> So I don't know why .50 works of if it can be anything different. As
> far as I can tell, that .50 address isn't used anywhere. I didn't
> think much about it when I put it in except that I figured it should
> be higher than the number of clients. Any ideas? I also don't know
> what will happen if I try to connect more than one client to Router
> #2.
>
>>One last thought is do your AP's do WDS??
>
> Unfortunately (or the opposite from some points of view), no.
>
> Thanks,
> Bruce
>

As long as I'm in bad form tonight replying to my own posts, I suppose
I should follow up with another.

It turns out that I was making things more complicated than necessary.
There's no need to set Router #2 to use static IP and DNS addresses.
Leaving them at the default of dynamic in the Basic Settings screen is
ok too. Again this implies that those settings apply only to the WAN
port.

So, in summary, all I had to do was connect a LAN port on Router #1 to
a LAN port on Router #2, turn off DHCP in Router #2, and set Router #2
to use a different channel than Router #1. I also gave Router #2 a
different SSID name so I could easily identify it.

Hope this helps someone.

Bruce

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 20:42:32 -0500, "WRC" <dogwoodwind@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>The 169.254.X.X address is Microsoft's default address for DHCP when it
>cannot locate a DHCP server to obtain an address.

Just a minor nit pick.

The 169.254.xxx.xxx is not just Microsoft's idea. It was recently
codified in RFC3927:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3927.html
It is generally assumed that this was just the IP address that MS
defaulted to when it couldn't get a DHCP lease. It's apparently far
more complex than that.

There are some interesting notes on the appendix at the bottom on how
it works in Windoze and other operating systems.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558