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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2007, 03:52 AM
Steve Chapel
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Default 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

I've got some ThinkPad T61 notebooks with wireless cards that support
draft 802.11n. I'm looking for a draft 802.11n wireless access point
that will be fully compatible with the notebooks, allowing full speed
communication (either in mixed or greenfield modes), with gigabit
Ethernet (1000Base-T) ports. I'm considering the Buffalo Wireless-N
Nfiniti Dual Band Gigabit Router & Access Point. Does anyone have
experience with ThinkPad T61 notebooks and that or any other draft
802.11n WAP? Do they seem to connect at full 802.11n speed?

Thanks,
Steve


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2007, 09:38 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

No experience, but I suggest you get the name and version of the
installed wireless card on the T61 and then google that card and check
it's website to see which kind of "N" it is and then find out which
ones use that technology.

There are many ways to determine the card - ask if you can't tell.

Another direction would be to go to the thinkpad forums and ask.

Steve


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2007, 10:02 PM
dold@54.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote:
> No experience, but I suggest you get the name and version of the
> installed wireless card on the T61 and then google that card and check
> it's website to see which kind of "N" it is and then find out which
> ones use that technology.


It should be an Intel 4965AGN.
http://www.intel.com/support/wireles...5agn/index.htm

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2007, 02:03 AM
Steve Chapel
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

dold@54.usenet.us.com wrote:
> seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No experience, but I suggest you get the name and version of the
>> installed wireless card on the T61 and then google that card and check
>> it's website to see which kind of "N" it is and then find out which
>> ones use that technology.

>
> It should be an Intel 4965AGN.
> http://www.intel.com/support/wireles...5agn/index.htm


Thanks! That was enough to get me pointed in the right direction. On
Buffalo's site they have a Connect with Intel Centrino Processor
Technology identifier
<http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products/wireless/connect.htm>,
which indicates that "compatibility and real-world performance with
laptops based on Intel Centrino Duo processor technology." The ThinkPad
T61 is certified Centrino Pro, so they should work together.

What do you know about that, marketing information that's actually
useful? I hope it's actually accurate.

For future reference, here are the Centrino 802.11n gigabit WAPs I've found:

<http://www.buffalotech.com/products/wireless/wireless-n-nfiniti-dual-band/wireless-n-nfiniti-dual-band-gigabit-router-access-point/>

<http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=530>

<http://www.netgear.com/Products/RoutersandGateways/RangeMaxNEXTWirelessRoutersandGateways/WNR854T.aspx>

Anyone else care to add to the list?


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2007, 05:59 PM
Peter Pan
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

Steve Chapel wrote:
> dold@54.usenet.us.com wrote:
>> seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> No experience, but I suggest you get the name and version of the
>>> installed wireless card on the T61 and then google that card and
>>> check it's website to see which kind of "N" it is and then find out
>>> which ones use that technology.

>>
>> It should be an Intel 4965AGN.
>> http://www.intel.com/support/wireles...5agn/index.htm

>
> Thanks! That was enough to get me pointed in the right direction. On
> Buffalo's site they have a Connect with Intel Centrino Processor
> Technology identifier
> <http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products/wireless/connect.htm>,
> which indicates that "compatibility and real-world performance with
> laptops based on Intel Centrino Duo processor technology." The
> ThinkPad T61 is certified Centrino Pro, so they should work together.
>
> What do you know about that, marketing information that's actually
> useful? I hope it's actually accurate.
>
> For future reference, here are the Centrino 802.11n gigabit WAPs I've
> found:
> <http://www.buffalotech.com/products/wireless/wireless-n-nfiniti-dual-band/wireless-n-nfiniti-dual-band-gigabit-router-access-point/>
>
> <http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=530>
>
> <http://www.netgear.com/Products/RoutersandGateways/RangeMaxNEXTWirelessRoutersandGateways/WNR854T.aspx>
>
> Anyone else care to add to the list?


pay your money, and take a chance... Just to be sure you are aware, the
marketers LIE, there are *NO* ratified n specs yet..... And there's no law
against calling something N (or any other letter, wanna buy a pre-z? ((I
call it a Z, whos gonna stop me?))) to try and make sales.... If you buy
something now, you can just HOPE that it will be updated and work with
whatever is finally approved (I think currently in dec of 2008)... Just
because a certain card works now, does *NOT* mean it will work in the future
when they finally get around to definitions/updating things...

However, considering you have a T61, and that will most likely be supported
in the future by one of the bigger manufacturers (you list most of them
above), chances are that no matter what the final specs are, your existing
card will probably be supported.... I'd just go with one of them, rather
than trying to save a few bucks by getting an elcheapo import....



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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 04:41 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

On Aug 7, 8:03 pm, Steve Chapel <scha...@pixelgate.net> wrote:
> d...@54.usenet.us.com wrote:
> > seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> No experience, but I suggest you get the name and version of the
> >> installed wireless card on the T61 and then google that card and check
> >> it's website to see which kind of "N" it is and then find out which
> >> ones use that technology.

>
> > It should be an Intel 4965AGN.
> >http://www.intel.com/support/wireles...5agn/index.htm

>
> Thanks! That was enough to get me pointed in the right direction. On
> Buffalo's site they have a Connect with Intel Centrino Processor
> Technology identifier
> <http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products/wireless/connect.htm>,
> which indicates that "compatibility and real-world performance with
> laptops based on Intel Centrino Duo processor technology." The ThinkPad
> T61 is certified Centrino Pro, so they should work together.
>
> What do you know about that, marketing information that's actually
> useful? I hope it's actually accurate.
>
> For future reference, here are the Centrino 802.11n gigabit WAPs I've found:
>
> <http://www.buffalotech.com/products/wireless/wireless-n-nfiniti-dual-...>
>
> <http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=530>
>
> <http://www.netgear.com/Products/RoutersandGateways/RangeMaxNEXTWirele...>
>
> Anyone else care to add to the list?



I'd go with Buffalo. Seem to be among the best of the current
consumer level stuff.

And my experience (as well as others) has been good for reliability -
as long as you don't plug in the wrong power supply !

When I did that, it took a while to realize that my laptop adapter
fits perfectly in the Buffalo router. Much higher voltage, though.
Made the leds all light up very nicely, but the rest of it didn't like
19v.

Had it been an older Linksys WRT54G (not an N) then it might have
tolerated this screw-up, I understand.

Steve


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 05:10 PM
Steve Chapel
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

Peter Pan wrote:

> pay your money, and take a chance... Just to be sure you are aware, the
> marketers LIE, there are *NO* ratified n specs yet..... And there's no law
> against calling something N (or any other letter, wanna buy a pre-z? ((I
> call it a Z, whos gonna stop me?))) to try and make sales.... If you buy
> something now, you can just HOPE that it will be updated and work with
> whatever is finally approved (I think currently in dec of 2008)... Just
> because a certain card works now, does *NOT* mean it will work in the future
> when they finally get around to definitions/updating things...


Intel is throwing many millions of dollars at their Centrino marketing
campaigns. I'm sure they can sue companies if they claim to be
compatible when in fact they aren't. The question is, will they find
out, will they decide to sue, and how long will it take to get the
offending claim to be retracted? So I agree it's a bit of a crapshoot
even now, and we may need to look at buying a new WAP in the future.
Even so, it's worth a try to get 802.11n working now.

> However, considering you have a T61, and that will most likely be supported
> in the future by one of the bigger manufacturers (you list most of them
> above), chances are that no matter what the final specs are, your existing
> card will probably be supported.... I'd just go with one of them, rather
> than trying to save a few bucks by getting an elcheapo import....


That's what I'm thinking. I was just wondering if anyone had real-life
experience with the new ThinkPads. I guess I'll just see for myself, and
report the results back.

Thanks!


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 10:44 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

Steve Chapel <schapel@pixelgate.net> hath wroth:

>Intel is throwing many millions of dollars at their Centrino marketing
>campaigns. I'm sure they can sue companies if they claim to be
>compatible when in fact they aren't.


They would more likely have been sued for making Centrino product
incompatible. The first mutation of Centrino wireless devices used a
Philips chip and did almost everything in software. It would barely
connect to high end access points and consistently fail with cheap
routers. The various vendors begged Intel to fix their Centrino
drivers, but Intel pretended that there was nothing wrong. It's not
the first time they've done this. So, the router manufacturers had to
modify their firmware to accommodate Intel's creative idea of proper
packet timing and protocol exchange. There was a rather large number
of "Centrino router updates" issued about 3 years ago.

When Intel finally starting shipping their own chipsets (18 months
late incidentally), the story repeated itself. The next generation of
chips again used the Proset series of drivers and utilities, and once
again would not connect with anything on the planet. To Intel's
credit, they did fix the problem, but then left Proset to drift for
about a year while a growing number of "oddity" complaints
accumulated. With the release of 10.x drivers, things rapidly
improved and Proset support is finally decent.

>The question is, will they find
>out, will they decide to sue, and how long will it take to get the
>offending claim to be retracted? So I agree it's a bit of a crapshoot
>even now, and we may need to look at buying a new WAP in the future.
>Even so, it's worth a try to get 802.11n working now.


I don't have an answer. However, my guess(tm) is a repeat performance
of release prematurely, drift for a year, and fix in a hurry when the
complaints pile up. Intel isn't the only one's that does it that way.

My only hope for any change is if the Wi-Fi Alliance certification of
Pre-802.11n devices actually tests and enforces the details within the
802.11n protocol. This is unlikely as they haven't even figure out
that there are multiple and incompatible mutations of MIMO devices on
the market and can't seem to keep them separated. They also haven't
bother to even mention, much less fix, the chronic WEP ASCII to Hex
conversion mess, so I wouldn't expect them to deal with proprietary
extensions in any useful manner.

>That's what I'm thinking. I was just wondering if anyone had real-life
>experience with the new ThinkPads. I guess I'll just see for myself, and
>report the results back.


Not me. I can't afford one.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2007, 03:52 PM
Steve Chapel
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> My only hope for any change is if the Wi-Fi Alliance certification of
> Pre-802.11n devices actually tests and enforces the details within the
> 802.11n protocol.


That seems to leave only the D-Link and NetGear, as Buffalo doesn't seem
to have the Wi-Fi b/g/n logo on its page. I was strongly recommended to
avoid all D-Link products, so I guess that leaves NetGear as the best shot.

Incidentally, I was in a store looking for other options, and they don't
seem to have the certification logos on the boxes. You have to go home
and look up the web pages of the products to see what they're compatible
with. I had to do that to find out the Linksys doesn't claim Centrino
compatibility.


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2007, 04:43 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: 802.11n wireless access point compatible with ThinkPad T61

Steve Chapel <schapel@pixelgate.net> hath wroth:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> My only hope for any change is if the Wi-Fi Alliance certification of
>> Pre-802.11n devices actually tests and enforces the details within the
>> 802.11n protocol.


>That seems to leave only the D-Link and NetGear, as Buffalo doesn't seem
>to have the Wi-Fi b/g/n logo on its page. I was strongly recommended to
>avoid all D-Link products, so I guess that leaves NetGear as the best shot.


Not really. All of them are going to change when 802.11n is finally
approved by the IEEE or when hell freezes over, which ever comes
first. The problem is that the Wi-Fi Alliance is testing for
compliance to Pre-N Draft 2 specification. That's a problem because
this draft is really a conglomeration of two radically different
techniques. One is based on True-MIMO using the Airgo chipset to
combine multiple streams. The other on the Ruckus Wireless beam
forming method. There are others. All are mutually incompatible, yet
all will be Pre-N Draft 2.0 compliant. Are you sure you want this
mess?

>Incidentally, I was in a store looking for other options, and they don't
>seem to have the certification logos on the boxes. You have to go home
>and look up the web pages of the products to see what they're compatible
>with.


Yep. When the technology and acronyms change so quickly that any
certifications and endorsements become obsolete literally overnight,
it's a bad idea to plaster the boxes with stickers that might indicate
that the box is out of date. In most cases, a firmware update will
bring the product up to the latest standards compliance, but you can't
tell that from the box.

>I had to do that to find out the Linksys doesn't claim Centrino
>compatibility.


Methinks you may have it backwards. Centrino (Intel) needs to claim
Linksys compatibility. There was a time when I got rather tired of
Centrino based products with Proset software not working with some
wireless routers. It's really a question of whether the dog is
wagging the tail or the reverse. Since Intel is the biggest dog in
town, I guess they do the wagging.

<http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/11/Reports/802.11_Timelines.htm>
802.11n by Mar 2009. Looks like Draft 3 might hit in Sept 2007.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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