Anybody here a teacher?

I've read all the books I can find on wifi. I've asked questions here and am
starting to understand things.

However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:

"It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think you
know that ain't right>"

I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?

Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on the
block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux (working on
Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl and earlier, C++. I
gave up on VB, though.......

This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning, and just
want to learn it well.

Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed? Anyone here want to
make a few bucks? I realize that most here learn it by doing it, but in my
case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the business nor know
anyone that is.

Any one that want to reply privately:

bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com

Travis McGee wrote:
> I've read all the books I can find on wifi. I've asked questions here
> and am starting to understand things.
>
> However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:
>
> "It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think
> you know that ain't right>"
>
> I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?
>
> Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on
> the block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux
> (working on Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl
> and earlier, C++. I gave up on VB, though.......
>
> This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning,
> and just want to learn it well.
>
> Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed? Anyone here
> want to make a few bucks? I realize that most here learn it by doing
> it, but in my case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the
> business nor know anyone that is.
>
> Any one that want to reply privately:
>
> bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com

That's pretty funny, above you said you taught yourself ...... Not sure why
it's not really an option now, heck, I'm retired, and just buy stuff to play
and learn... Funny thing about teachers.. Heck, I was a professor until I
retired... I used to play and learn stuff, then teach it to the students the
next day (ie do first and THEN teach)... Considering how many teachers teach
INSTEAD of doing now, what makes you think you can learn anything (except
the wrong way) from them?

Seems from what you wrote, that you have been teaching yourself stuff for
years until now, why stop doing what works and try something else that may
not?

"Travis McGee" <nothere@aol.com> hath wroth:

>I've read all the books I can find on wifi.

If you really want to burn out on Wi-Fi, I suggest reading the IEEE
802.11a/b/g etc specifications. The technobabble is known to turn
one's brain to mush.
<http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/>

If you survive those, your next adventure will be the FCC Part
15.200-.299 specifications. The main parts for Wi-Fi are 15.201 and
15.247.
<http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/15/>
The bureaucratese is also known to turn one's brain to mush.

There's also no way to really understand Wi-Fi without also
understanding patent law, trademark law, international wireless
politics, standards group politics, and American style monopoly
building. Some local politics for municipal WLAN's is also helpful.

Don't forget the FAQ and John Navas spent considerable time assembling
for your benefit:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To>
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Fixes_to_Wi-Fi_Problems>

Also, there are few good documents floating around. I suggest you
download and read the Intel Wireless Hotspot Guide that I have
reposted without Intel's permission at:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Intel%20HotSpot%20Guide.pdf>
There's quite a bit of good basic stuff in there. Don't tell Intel.

>I've asked questions here and am
>starting to understand things.

I'm going the other way. At first, I thought I knew everything. After
answering questions in this newsgroup for a few years, I find that I
seem to know less and less. For example, why would the IEEE consider
three radically different technologies (spatial mux, beam forming, and
diversity code) all to be MIMO and to be conglomerated into one
standard? It boggles the mind (which is what happens just before it
turns to mush). There's also the problem of acronym production
exceeding my ability to digest them. At the present rate, Wi-Fi will
choking on acronyms and IEEE standards making it impossible for a
single person to understand everything. However, having you brain
first turned to mush is helpful as you won't notice these problem.

>However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:
>"It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think you
>know that ain't right>"

I don't know about that. Knowledge is a curve with a peak in the
middle. You start at the bottom and work your way to the peak
accumulating knowledge. When you get to the top, you realize that
there are some rather large and numerous holes in your knowledge and
start to question the very fundamentals that got you up the curve.
Soon, you find that you really understand less and less about the
technology, thus sliding down the curve. At this point, one usually
degenerates into an expert on minutiae, which is a defensible
position. The few that still maintain that they understand
everything, usually find themselves on the road to insanity,
irrelevance, research projects, or teaching.

>I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?

That's two different questions. I don't have the answer to either.
All I can suggest is that is if you must ask "why am I doing this",
you're doomed from the start.

>Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on the
>block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux (working on
>Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl and earlier, C++. I
>gave up on VB, though.......

None of this has much to do with Wi-Fi. To understand Wi-Fi, you must
understand RF, radio, microwave methods, antennas, propagation, and
especially FCC/IEEE/WiFi/municipal politics.

>This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning, and just
>want to learn it well.

Huh? What new beginning? All I see is the same olde stuff expanded
on a grand scale by massive popularity, hype, and marketing. You may
not be able to teach an old dog a new trick, but you can sure
repackage the old dog into something that looks like a new dog.

Progress.... just add acronyms.

>Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed?

Course:
<http://ask-wi.com>
See if you can squeeze your way into one of his classes somewhere.

Method:
Learn by Destroying(tm). Buy a pile of wireless junk. There's plenty
of stuff on eBay. Get yourself a Linux (DD-WRT or OpenWRT) based
central router. Pass out client bridges to the neighbors and build a
neighborhood WLAN. Ignore anyone that questions your sanity or
motivation. You'll soon learn that Wi-Fi is about 30% technology and
70% a mixture of politics, psychology, and lunacy.

Diving inside and reverse engineering the design is often interesting.
If soldering iron and RF is not your cup-o-tea, then sniffing the
traffic and analyzing how 802.11 really works (as opposed to reading
about it in the specs) might be of interest.

Jump right in. The water is ummm..... boiling.

>Anyone here want to make a few bucks?

Not if I have to work for it.

>I realize that most here learn it by doing it, but in my
>case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the business nor know
>anyone that is.

There's quite a bit you can learn on the test bench. I kinda wish I
still had access to something better than my museum of 30 year old
test equipment, as it would answer many of the questions that I've
been forced to guess or derive. If you have money, buying a sweep
generator, directional coupler, and oscilloscope are a big help.
Figure on $1000 for those plus some test cables and incidentals. A
decent spectrum analyzer will cost at least $2000.

>Any one that want to reply privately:
>bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I am a teacher as well. I teach at the "School for hard knocks, self
taught".


"Travis McGee" <nothere@aol.com> wrote:
> I've read all the books I can find on wifi. I've asked questions here and
> am starting to understand things.
>
> However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:
>
> "It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think you
> know that ain't right>"
>
> I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?
>
> Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on the
> block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux (working on
> Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl and earlier, C++.
> I gave up on VB, though.......
>
> This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning, and
> just want to learn it well.
>
> Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed? Anyone here want
> to make a few bucks? I realize that most here learn it by doing it, but
> in my case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the business nor
> know anyone that is.
>
> Any one that want to reply privately:
>
> bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com

--
..

Really what it sounds like you want is someone to play with. Find someone
who is interested in the same type of things and start learing...

Adair

"Travis McGee" <nothere@aol.com> wrote in message
news:uBAki.5450$rR.1929@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> I've read all the books I can find on wifi. I've asked questions here and
> am
> starting to understand things.
>
> However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:
>
> "It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think you
> know that ain't right>"
>
> I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?
>
> Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on the
> block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux (working on
> Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl and earlier, C++.
> I
> gave up on VB, though.......
>
> This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning, and
> just
> want to learn it well.
>
> Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed? Anyone here want
> to
> make a few bucks? I realize that most here learn it by doing it, but in my
> case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the business nor know
> anyone that is.
>
> Any one that want to reply privately:
>
> bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com
>
>

Self taught is the way to go. Having an internet connection makes it
easy. All it takes is time and coffee and better and better reading
glasses.

Hands-on experience helps. As people are saying, with a couple of
flexible devices (replacement firmware helps) in hand, antennas (buy
and/or build) and a few pcs scattered about, you can start fooling
around.

Myself, I didn't understand ANYTHING about networking 14 months ago.
I didn't have an internet connection either.

First I went to the Internet cafe and downloaded the best articles I
could find on networking: How stuff works, maybe or I forget which
sites. Internet/ip addresses/routers/etc etc. I went home and read
two articles on every topic that seemed relevent. Retention was about
30%, but I got oriented and can at least ask semi-intelligent
questions.

Next, I researched ISPs and got our community's Sat system together.
Learned some more there. Static ips, etc.

Once we had a connection, I started researching wireless. I read
articles anywhere I could find them. About.com/How stuff works to
practically networked, wikis whatever. Poring over vender sites and
checking out wifi products and descriptions helps too.

Then I started lurking here, netstumbler, linksys info and DD-WRT
forums. You pick up a lot that way. Takes time though.

Then I started asking questions here about our specific application
and Jeff set me on course. Now, after a year on this group and also
following DD-WRT, I feel like I'm on my feet, more or less. The more
problems one solves, the more solid one's understanding is. In that
vein, I try to sharpen my skills and understanding by answering the
simpler questions here and also asking my own now and then.

I'm also branching out now by trying to monitor our LAN usage and that
is another level of learning. Complicated.

The great thing about this wireless stuff is that with even half a
clue, you are doing better than most! And it is pretty cool when it
works.

Steve

On Jul 10, 1:42 am, "Travis McGee" <noth...@aol.com> wrote:
> I've read all the books I can find on wifi. I've asked questions here and am
> starting to understand things.
>
> However, I'm at the point where, as somebody once said:
>
> "It ain't what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you think you
> know that ain't right>"
>
> I don't know what I don't know. Why do I want to learn this?
>
> Well, I taught myself computers and owned the first Commodore 64 on the
> block. I taught myself DOS, then Windows then a bit of Linux (working on
> Slack 12 right now). I taught myself to program in perl and earlier, C++. I
> gave up on VB, though.......
>
> This time I'm catching the technology right at the near beginning, and just
> want to learn it well.
>
> Is there a course or a method to get really up to speed? Anyone here want to
> make a few bucks? I realize that most here learn it by doing it, but in my
> case, that's not really an option, as I'm not in the business nor know
> anyone that is.
>
> Any one that want to reply privately:
>
> bodfishmike AT aaahawk.com

there are commercial qualifications which cover and partly wrap up,
the computer world.
The single computer
- Hardware <-- do that yourself by building comps and fixing them.
But there are courses like CompTIA
- OS <-- there are certs. MCSE linux too
- Software <-- do it yourself. trying all features, I guess you could
categorise them under software companies like to use - it may be
worth knowing Ms Outlook. And you've got utilities, like Nero,
process explorer by sysinternals, useful freeware, the kind of things
you find quickly when you google for a program to do what you want.

Networks
Hardware
there is cisco certs. CCNA is basic, CCNP is intermediate, CCIE is
advanced. And there are many books for that. And courses- usually very
expensive courses.
Even if you do it by books you'd prob want to get some equipment to
play with, which costs.
Software
maybe just OSs, trying running different servers. Most servers you'd
have heard of, web servers, ftp servers.
concept of TCP/IP
books. I have a book published by Que which I like.. but what happens
is all the main computer publishers produce their book on the subject.
Go to a large bookstores and you'll see them all.. worth looking at
amazon too of course.

btw, unfortunately things aren't so organised . And some things are
really almost only seen in the workplace. I read in a book the term
"application server". I didn't see what use it was, until in a job I
saw an interesting one called Citrix.. people log on and run
applications on the server. They didn't need to install the software
locally. So cheaper for licenses. And it is all centralised. I haven't
seen citrix mentioned anywhere in books i've read.. I wish people
running the show did collaborate to organise everything, but it isn't
the case..

there are wireless certs too

Most people in computers lose any interest in trying to keep up with
all areas.. because they get married, have a family that depends on
them..
Most jobs are in windows, and windows is fairly boring, but techies
know it back to front. Once working, they don't have all the time to
study all the areas.

If not working, or if working part time, it can be an expensive
lifestyle, buying computer parts for your computers, of your network
at home. And there aren't many part time computer jobs.. There is
contract work, so you could work 7 or 8 months, take a month off.
Some companies will pay for employees to train.

If you're trying to keep up with everything your whole life, it's
problematic.

On the other hand, if you have all the advanced stuff at home, then
keeping up with everything may just come naturally, from your all
encompassing hobby!!!

Any person with a technical mind, can fix their own windows computer
or those of their friends/family, even if they're accountants,
lawyers, students or professors. You don't need to stay up to date
that much to do that. I guess it's not that all encompassing.. The
more advanced stuff isn't hard if you're technical. And may not be
that much more time consuming.

If you can learn it on the job then that's good, it won't consume so
much time at home. But that's an 'if'. If you're stuck in a job fixing
windows machines then you prob won't be learning much on the job.

those that get past that often go to managerial positions, and start
reevaluating things 'cos they're not that involved at the technical
level. So it becomes something to fund their lifestyle, rather than an
interest.

It's a strange industry. Most people rate it as boring.
http://www.out-law.com/page-7146
"IT is the fifth most boring profession in the UK. It ranks as being
more boring than engineering, banking and accountancy according to the
Workforce Boredom Index produced by a government quango"

(network security may be fun, but not many do that)

As a hobby it's fun, some hassle, and time consuming. Can be very
riveting. As i'm sure you know

They are really 2 different worlds.

I only know one person that is that into it as a hobby, that hasn't
tried the industry. Though actually, he isn't really into it as a
hobby so much, he applies it all very efficiently in his non-IT job!

jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> saw an interesting one called Citrix.. people log on and run
> applications on the server. They didn't need to install the software
> locally. So cheaper for licenses. And it is all centralised. I haven't
> seen citrix mentioned anywhere in books i've read..

The Citrix engine is a really good application with several ways of using
it. The biggest selling points are its fast screen refresh rate, HIPPA
grade security and remote IT infrastructure independent.

The "GoToMyPC" service provides secure remote access to your PC from any
Web browser. You can sit at home with your laptop and control your desktop
computer back at the office.

The "GoToAssit" service enables remote support of customer and employees
via shared screen, mouse and keyboard controls. The client goes to your
website and downloads a small client that communicates back to your help
desk. Unlike some remote access apps that require NAT, firewall permissions
and port forwarding...its independent of the local network infrastructure.
$300 per month for a two seat helpdesk license (or is it $400? - I'd need
to see what I'm paying per month). A much cheaper, as in FREE, approach
using the VNC engine would be the PCHelpWare add on for UltraVNC.

For the server application you're referring to, it basically allows dumb
terminals, i.e stripped laptops, to have full access to a full blown
virtual desktop. The server host point pays a much discounted rate for an
enterprise virtual deployment for licensed software.

Check out www.citrixonline.com

On Jul 11, 6:52 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
> jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > saw an interesting one called Citrix.. people log on and run
> > applications on the server. They didn't need to install the software
> > locally. So cheaper for licenses. And it is all centralised. I haven't
> > seen citrix mentioned anywhere in books i've read..
>
> The Citrix engine is a really good application with several ways of using
> it.
>The biggest selling points are its fast screen refresh rate, HIPPA
> grade security and remote IT infrastructure independent.
>
> The "GoToMyPC" service provides secure remote access to your PC from any
> Web browser. You can sit at home with your laptop and control your desktop
> computer back at the office.
>
> The "GoToAssit" service enables remote support of customer and employees
> via shared screen, mouse and keyboard controls. The client goes to your
> website and downloads a small client that communicates back to your help
> desk. Unlike some remote access apps that require NAT, firewall permissions
> and port forwarding...its independent of the local network infrastructure.
> $300 per month for a two seat helpdesk license (or is it $400? - I'd need
> to see what I'm paying per month). A much cheaper, as in FREE, approach
> using the VNC engine would be the PCHelpWare add on for UltraVNC.
>

I think I used GoToAssist once. Far better than VNC, for the reason
you give. No firewall meddling..

seems there are 2 or 3 definitions of client and server
- client initiates connection to server
- client makes requests to the server and the server responds
- server is centralised.

VNC relies on the definition of client initiates connection to
server..

And the definition that the client is making requests to the server,
and the server is responding, in this case, accepting commands that
control it remotely, and sending back a picture.

But from the point of view of centralisation, the server isn't
central. If you're the IT Dept techie and you have loads of users. You
run the client app, and all the users run the server app, you connect
to them. So the client is central. If somebody does call that central
comp the server, they mean it in the sense of it being central..

GoToAssist
made me think again..
And realise that since the client app and the server app are just
apps. the client initiating to the server. There's no reason why it
should be the client controlling or requesting info, from the server.
It can be the client connecting to the server, and the server
controlling the client..

Indeed, that is how GoToAssist functioned.
I went to a website, it downloaded a file (the client application), I
ran that. It connected to some GoToAssist server. But unlike VNC,
instead of me then being able to control their machine. They could
control mine. Very cool.

If making an outgoing connection to somebody else, they have to do all
the security and configuring at their end! (of course, if the
firewall was blocking outgoing in some way then there would be some
configuring necessary. Home routers by default block all incoming,
but allow all outgoing. In a sense, I guess it "exploits" that fact!)

I'll give PCHelpWare a look, hopefully it does do that.

I don't see any need for some expressions you've used like "bypassing
the local network infrastructure" , that looks like non-technical
sales babble to me.

If you're technical, why are you outsourcing your tech support? I
guess you're a techie doing something else?



> For the server application you're referring to, it basically allows dumb
> terminals, i.e stripped laptops,

err, dumb terminals are a fairly old fashioned thing. I think they
are literally - no processing capability
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/D/dumb_terminal.html

stripped laptops?!!!

the computers that connect to citrix are typically regular computers
like those people buy from Dell !!! When used to connect to citrix,
they may be called 'thin clients' because the BULK of processing using
citrix, occurs at the server side - on the citrix server.


> to have full access to a full blown
> virtual desktop. The server host point pays a much discounted rate for an
> enterprise virtual deployment for licensed software.
>
> Check outwww.citrixonline.com

Ach, that - style - of language and explanation is too non-technical
for me.. sorry!
And i'm not familiar enough with citrix to have had the displeasure of
unravelling it.

It's language like that that makes the computer industry a bit of a
bore and a hassle.. Because at the root we are dealing with technical
concepts.. Unfortunately, explanations of what things actually do, get
lost somewhere, and don't seem to be considered relevant in sales
literature.

Once the term 'enterprise' gets thrown in, the sales literature gets
worse and worse.

jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I think I used GoToAssist once. Far better than VNC, for the reason
> you give. No firewall meddling..
>
> seems there are 2 or 3 definitions of client and server
> - client initiates connection to server
> - client makes requests to the server and the server responds
> - server is centralised.
>
> VNC relies on the definition of client initiates connection to
> server..

The PCHelpWare module for Real VNC functions similar to the Citrix
GoToAssist. We use both. We have a web page we direct clients to and they
click on "request a connection" and a small app downloads or we just leave
the app on their Desktop. The reason we use both is that we only have two
Citrix seats and sometimes both are in use when I need to remotely do
something.

> And the definition that the client is making requests to the server,
> and the server is responding, in this case, accepting commands that
> control it remotely, and sending back a picture.

We also use RealVNC that runs on all the remote computers. Its faster than
PCHelpWare and allows copy and paste, but needs remote site router
configurations.

> I don't see any need for some expressions you've used like "bypassing
> the local network infrastructure" , that looks like non-technical
> sales babble to me.

Its the best and most generalization of saying you don't have to set up
port forwarding in their DSL modem, you don't have to set up NAT and
forwarding in their router, etc..etc..i.e the local infrastructure.

> If you're technical, why are you outsourcing your tech support? I
> guess you're a techie doing something else?

No, other way around...we have some clients that call us for occasional
help. 90% of computer issues can be resolved at the keyboard level. By
remoting into them, it saves a truck roll.

> stripped laptops?!!!

The phrase "stripped laptops" has a clearer meaning to most people than a
"thin client"

> Once the term 'enterprise' gets thrown in, the sales literature gets
> worse and worse.

And the newest phrase..."Dashboard"