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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 05:02 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default B vs.G

I noticed that (in a wireless adapter's specs) it's B tx power has
3dBm more power than
G. Is this another clue that connecting under 802.11 B will give
more
>distance?



Good question. 802.11b and g powers are measured at the maximum
power
for any frequency or mode. For 802.11b, that's at 1 or 2 Mbits/sec
which operates pure FM (frequency modulation). However, the 802.11g
modes, that run from 9 to 54Mbits/sec, are all combinations of both
AM
(amplitude modulation) and FM modulation. The AM component reduces
the ratio of the peak to average power when measured according to
ANSI
C63.4:2003 (Measurement of intentional radiators). Therefore,
802.11b
will read somewhat higher power levels than 802.11g. Also, note that
the tx power will vary over about 1dB from the lowest to the highest
channel.

ANSI C63.4:2003
<http://standards.ieee.org/catalog/olis/emc.html>
<http://standards.ieee.org/reading/ie...scription/emc/
C63...>
Sorry, you gotta be a paid member to download the proceedures and
specs.


OK. So....if I understand correctly, it's not so much that 802.11B is
effectively more powerful than G, but that the different forms of
modulation simply yield different power measurements ?

A bit of the old "apples to oranges"?


In any case, is it true that operating in B can allow decent
connections (albeit slow) at increased distances?

1) Given a required connection speed of say, 9-11Mbps?

2) Simply comparing lowest fallback in each; 1-2 Mbps in B to ...9
Mbps in G?

Steve


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 06:29 PM
John Navas
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Default Re: B vs.G

On 30 Jan 2007 09:02:59 -0800, "seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com>
wrote in <1170176579.911010.124610@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>:

>In any case, is it true that operating in B can allow decent
>connections (albeit slow) at increased distances?
>
>1) Given a required connection speed of say, 9-11Mbps?
>
>2) Simply comparing lowest fallback in each; 1-2 Mbps in B to ...9
>Mbps in G?


G falls back to B modulation at low speed, so there's no advantage to B
over G. In addition, although 1 Mbps BPSK has a small advantage over 6
Mbps OFDM in theory, in practice I've always gotten better results from
6 Mbps OFDM.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 06:41 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: B vs.G

"seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>OK. So....if I understand correctly, it's not so much that 802.11B is
>effectively more powerful than G, but that the different forms of
>modulation simply yield different power measurements ?


Yep, that's about it. AM modulation causes the average power to
decrease somewhat.

>A bit of the old "apples to oranges"?


Nope. Just specmanship. The FCC specs are for average power. If
they were for peak power, the two power ratings would be roughly
equal. There's also RMS power (heating power), which is there just to
confuse everyone.

>In any case, is it true that operating in B can allow decent
>connections (albeit slow) at increased distances?


Yes. But think of what you're doing. It takes roughly 13 times
longer to send a packet at 1Mbit/sec than at 11Mbits/sec. You're
occupying 13 times the air time (transmission time) sending this one
packet. If I assume a nearby microwave oven raising havoc, I suspect
that there's a 100% chance that the 1Mbit/sec transmission will get
clobbered and need to be repeated. It might never arrive. However,
the 11Mbit/sec will get clobbered less often, and some of the data
will arrive, even though the error rate is horrendous. This also
applies to multipath and co-channel interference. Going slow is NOT a
general cure for reliability issues.

I suggest you read:
<http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/roofnet/doku.php?id=interesting>
which is a report on the MIT Roofnet mesh mess. Mesh is the worst
case topology, where interference is epidemic. Note the relationship
between speed and probability of delivering packets. It's quite
illuminating.

I tend to lock the speed of my access points at the slower OFDM
speeds. This has the side effect of rejecting all 802.11b connections
on SOME (not all) access points. However, It's the most reliable
compromise I've found between range and retransmissions. However, it
does not work for all conditions and I've had to go back to the more
common "automatic" speed settings on two hot spots.

>1) Given a required connection speed of say, 9-11Mbps?
>
>2) Simply comparing lowest fallback in each; 1-2 Mbps in B to ...9
>Mbps in G?


Sorry. I don't understand the question. In a perfect world, faster
is better up to the limit of the fade margin. In a real world,
interference seems to be the prime motivator, and that requires a much
more complex model. For example, fragmentation threshold and flow
control work nicely for reducing the effects of interference and
hidden transmitters. In other words, there's no simple answer to
determining the optimum speed setting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 07:43 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: B vs.G

Thanks. These answers help a lot.


> >1) Given a required connection speed of say, 9-11Mbps?

>
> >2) Simply comparing lowest fallback in each; 1-2 Mbps in B to ...9
> >Mbps in G?

>
> Sorry. I don't understand the question.



Sorry myself. After posting the question, I reread the wireless wiki
and realized the questions were not correctly formed.

I never thought about the interference aspect of speed.

I think that between the table on the Wiki and your "in the field"
rules of thumb, this gives us a good working understanding.



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 12:31 AM
decaturtxcowboy
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Default Re: B vs.G

John Navas wrote:
> n practice I've always gotten better results from
> 6 Mbps OFDM.


Quite so, but now with a 10 Mbps bonded DSL line, I'm moving up to
12 Mbps.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:26 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: B vs.G

decaturtxcowboy <nope_none_@nowayspam.com> hath wroth:

>John Navas wrote:
>> n practice I've always gotten better results from
>> 6 Mbps OFDM.


>Quite so, but now with a 10 Mbps bonded DSL line, I'm moving up to
>12 Mbps.


TCP thruput is about half the connection speed. So you would need a
24Mbit/sec wireless connection. According to my rule-of-thumb, the
change from 6 to 24Mbit/sec OFDM should result in half the range.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:46 AM
decaturtxcowboy
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Default Re: B vs.G

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> decaturtxcowboy <nope_none_@nowayspam.com> hath wroth:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> n practice I've always gotten better results from
>>> 6 Mbps OFDM.

>
>> Quite so, but now with a 10 Mbps bonded DSL line, I'm moving up to
>> 12 Mbps.

>
> TCP thruput is about half the connection speed. So you would need a
> 24Mbit/sec wireless connection. According to my rule-of-thumb, the
> change from 6 to 24Mbit/sec OFDM should result in half the range.


Its was a trade off. 12 Mbps (8 Mbps in wireless practice) vs. the shorter
range.

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 02:55 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: B vs.G

I just ran into this explanation. Don't know how accurate it is:

http://stores.ebay.com/DataAlliance/...G-802-11A.html

Steve


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 03:31 PM
John Navas
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Default Re: B vs.G

On 31 Jan 2007 06:55:31 -0800, "seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com>
wrote in <1170255331.072629.196280@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups .com>:

>I just ran into this explanation. Don't know how accurate it is:
>
>http://stores.ebay.com/DataAlliance/...G-802-11A.html


Those folks don't know how to format a proper webpage, so you have to
wonder about the quality of their advice. And you don't have to read
far to see the advice isn't any better than the webpage formatting;
e.g.,

* B doesn't conserve battery life as compared to G. In fact newer G
chipsets tend to have better power management than older B chipsets.

* Speed is managed by the access point, not the wireless client.

* OFDM (G) tends to be more robust than BPSK (B).

* G doesn't have different channel requirements than B.

* G doesn't cost more than B.

* Although B does interfere with G, it doesn't "nullify" it.

* Pentium processors don't operate in the 2.4 GHz band.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 04:33 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: B vs.G

John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:

>On 31 Jan 2007 06:55:31 -0800, "seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com>
>wrote in <1170255331.072629.196280@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups .com>:
>
>>I just ran into this explanation. Don't know how accurate it is:
>>
>>http://stores.ebay.com/DataAlliance/...G-802-11A.html


It's totally wrong. There isn't one single correct statement anywhere
on that page.
My favorite is:
"G requires use of three different channels simultaneously,
and the network implementation may have a constraint to not
lock up three channels"
Amazing. B and G both use approximately 22MHz or about 5 channels.
The bandwidth requirements for both are intentionally identical. Only
at speeds above 54Mbits do *SOME* systems require more bandwidth.

>* B doesn't conserve battery life as compared to G. In fact newer G
>chipsets tend to have better power management than older B chipsets.


Yep. Battery life for B is much worse than G because:
1. For the same amount of data moved, the slower B is on the air
longer than G. That applies to both xmit and receive. It takes
longer to synchronize B (long preamble) and longer to sample receive
the data. With B, all management packets are sent at the slowest
1Mbit/sec (for compatibility), which also requires more airtime. If
one simply compared the current drain required to move an XX MByte
file using B versus G, the higher speed G would by far be more
efficient.

>* Speed is managed by the access point, not the wireless client.


Yep. The only exception is that in an ad-hoc network, the initiating
client can set the speed. However, we're talking infrastructure here,
not ad-hoc.

>* OFDM (G) tends to be more robust than BPSK (B).


Yep. OFDM has a really big advantage over B in that it is much more
immune to reflections and multipath. OFDM consists of 52
sub-carriers, all of which contain parts of the data. If one
disappears, the others still work. Frequency selective fading (as
caused by multipath) is the major enemy of wireless. Each of the 52
carriers are on slightly different frequencies, where frequency
selective fading might ruin one or two carriers, the rest will get
through. That's far more robust than 802.11b, where the loss of part
of the frequency spectra results in total loss of data.

Also, don't forget my previous comments about interference. Big slow
packets as found in B are a much bigger target for interference than
the smaller G packets (although fragmentation can help).

>* G doesn't have different channel requirements than B.


Yep.

>* G doesn't cost more than B.


Actually, G costs less because the chipsets tend to be more tightly
integrated than B.

>* Although B does interfere with G, it doesn't "nullify" it.


Yep. However, the author might be referring to the 802.11b
compatibility mode found on all access points. The presence of an
802.11b connection does slow things down considerably. However,
better algorithms have largely reduce the damage to the point where it
is easily tolerated.

>* Pentium processors don't operate in the 2.4 GHz band.


That might be in reference to 2.4GHz being a common CPU clock speed.
The RFI from the processor is fairly well scattered all over the
frequency spectrum. At one time, I was seriously worried that there
might be some interference from the processor. So far, I haven't seen
any. However, the digital circuitry and clock junk from the processor
on an access point or client radio creates far more interference than
the main CPU. Although lower power, the clock crud is physically far
closer to receiver than the CPU. Think inverse square law. Also, a
good rule is that wires radiate, while components generally do not.

There's lots more wrong with that web page, but I don't want to burn
any more time correcting them.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2007, 08:04 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: B vs.G

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:33:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in
<v9f1s2lhhsedcls0tr27e4au3cr3blofp0@4ax.com>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:


>>* Pentium processors don't operate in the 2.4 GHz band.

>
>That might be in reference to 2.4GHz being a common CPU clock speed.
>The RFI from the processor is fairly well scattered all over the
>frequency spectrum. At one time, I was seriously worried that there
>might be some interference from the processor. So far, I haven't seen
>any. However, the digital circuitry and clock junk from the processor
>on an access point or client radio creates far more interference than
>the main CPU. Although lower power, the clock crud is physically far
>closer to receiver than the CPU. Think inverse square law. Also, a
>good rule is that wires radiate, while components generally do not.


There's also the little matter of FCC mandated radiation limits for the
computer.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2007, 04:21 AM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: B vs.G

Well, I suppose the batch of misstatements on that site actually
helped us understand more thoroughly as you guys took apart the worst
ones...




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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2007, 05:34 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: B vs.G

"seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

> Well, I suppose the batch of misstatements on that site actually
>helped us understand more thoroughly as you guys took apart the worst
>ones...


It's fairly easy to tell if someone is clueless about wireless. They
tend to leave off the necessary qualifiers. For example, if someone
said "802.11b has more range than 802.11g", that would be baloney
because they didn't specify at what speed(s) and at what BER (bit
error rate). BER is the reference level used to measure receiver
sensitivity. More specifically:

Wrong:
1. 802.11b has more range than 802.11g.
2. 802.11g goes faster than 802.11b.
3. 802.11g is "better" than 802.11b.

Right:
1. For equal tx power levels, speeds, and bit error rates,
802.11g goes farther than 802.11b mostly because the receiver
sensitivity for a given speed is better.

2. For equal tx power levels, speeds, and test condiditions,
802.11g is "better" than 802.11b because it is more immune to
reflections and intereference.

Incidentally, there seems to be a rather odd misuse of the "b" letter
suffice. 802.11 (no suffix) is strictly 1 and 2 Mbit/sec[1]. 802.11b
added 5.5 and 11Mbits/sec. 802.11g added 6, 9, 12 ... 54Mbits/sec.
When someone is mumbling about the slower 1 and 2Mbit/sec connections,
it really should be 802.11, not 802.11b.

[1] Older Breezecom FHSS radios would also do 3Mbit/sec.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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