Basic question

Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
purchase to use on MSN Messenger.

Thank you.

April wrote:
> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.

As far as I know, Yahoo and all the other IM services, require a USB cam.

Wireless and Bluetooth won't work.

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:13:02 GMT, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob>
wrote:

>April wrote:
>> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
>> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.

>As far as I know, Yahoo and all the other IM services, require a USB cam.
>Wireless and Bluetooth won't work.

Nope. I like to use camera servers and various PCI card video
digitizers. I don't use MSN Mess, but they all work with Yahoo, AOL
AIM, GAIM, Trillian, Skype, and such. Under Windoze XP, any device
that shows up under:
Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras
will work. That advantage is that I can use an old digital camera or
camcorder for video that's far superior to the typical yucky USB CMOS
imager and crude plastic optics.

My favorite (this week) is the 4 port IP Video server:
<http://www.aviosys.com/ip9100aplus.htm>
There are newer versions but the 9100a Plus is available cheap on
eBay. It uses ethernet instead of the usual USB or internal card.

The data sheet claims:
"Support MSN & Yahoo Messenger, AmCap, WmCAP, VWCap, VidCap program"
I've never actually tried IM using an ethernet video server so I don't
know if there are any complications.

If you must have it wireless, then just add a wireless client ehternet
bridge radio, such as a WAP54G. Basically, the wireless is just an
extension cord for the ethernet.

Also see:
<http://www.networkcamerareviews.com>
for a severe case of overchoice.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:13:02 GMT, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob>
> wrote:
>
>> April wrote:
>>> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
>>> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.
>
>> As far as I know, Yahoo and all the other IM services, require a USB cam.
>> Wireless and Bluetooth won't work.
>
> Nope. I like to use camera servers and various PCI card video
> digitizers. I don't use MSN Mess, but they all work with Yahoo, AOL
> AIM, GAIM, Trillian, Skype, and such. Under Windoze XP, any device
> that shows up under:
> Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras
> will work. That advantage is that I can use an old digital camera or
> camcorder for video that's far superior to the typical yucky USB CMOS
> imager and crude plastic optics.

That's correct, but he wants to use a web cam...not a digital camera.

DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> hath wroth:

>That's correct, but he wants to use a web cam...not a digital camera.

Not exactly. A web cam somehat different from what I though the OP
was seeking, which is an IM (instant messaging) camera. There's
considerable overlap, but they are different applications. An IM
camera looks at the user, while a web cam usually looks at something
else. Why the IM camera needs to be wireless I'll leave to the
imagination.

My main issue is one of image quality. Most digital cameras have an
NTSC video output which can be fed to any video digitizer (ethernet,
PCI card, USB, etc). It's easy to find a digital camera with a
cracked LCD display, that makes a perfectly good NTSC video camera.
Even the bottom of the line digital camera has better optics and
usually a better sensor array (i.e. CCD instead of CMOS) than the
typical USB web cam. Digital cameras and camcorders usually have auto
iris and auto focus, which are generally lacking on the cheapo USB web
cam. Tilt and swivel support are however lacking and will need to be
dealt with in other ways. However, tilt and swivel have little use in
an IM camera.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

April wrote:
> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.

As far as I know, MSN (or any other IM applications requires:

1) A USB device.

2) OR as Jeff pointed out, any device that Windows recognizes as an imaging
device, i.e. Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras

[snipped from Jeff's post]
Nope. I like to use camera servers and various PCI card video
digitizers. I don't use MSN Mess, but they all work with Yahoo, AOL
AIM, GAIM, Trillian, Skype, and such. Under Windoze XP, any device
that shows up under:
Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras
[end snip]

If you could give us an idea what you are trying to do, we could give you
better ideas.

If you want to monitor a remote location, you could certainly use a low
quality USB cam under $100 or for better quality a digital camcorder like
the $200 JVC GR-D350, following up what Jeff was saying.

Or you might consider an actual video camera. Here you have two
possibilities: NTSC video output video camera ($200-$700) and connect it to
a video card in your computer or an IP camera ($600-$1,300) which is
already ethernet networking ready. Some require a proprietary add on to
view them, usually a Active X driver (which means its viewable from only
with the Internet Explorer web browser). Both ideas can be viewed from any
location via the internet.

The #1 rule in video imagery is: The lower the cost of the camera, the
lower th image quality.

Someone bought a package of $150 Q-See NTSC video output cameras and
digital video recorder. The image quality was terrible as the cameras did
not have an auto iris and couldn't render bright light and dark parking
lot. They might be fine for controlled average office lighting. They
exchanged the cameras for a $200 auto iris type, but still the imagery was
not near as good as a commercial grade camera.

For NTSC video output cameras, base price around $300 to $700 and add $150
to $200 for the lens assembly (but no remote control). The Toshiba
IK-WB152A runs about $800+ and is IP ready with remote control pan, tilt,
and 5x zoom lens. The IK-WB20A is what I have mounted on my truck's roof
with 22x optical zoom, but they retail for $1,300..but the imagery is
incredible at 1280x900 pixels (super VGA).

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:20:39 GMT, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob>
wrote:

>April wrote:
>> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
>> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.
>
>As far as I know, MSN (or any other IM applications requires:
>
>1) A USB device.
>
>2) OR as Jeff pointed out, any device that Windows recognizes as an imaging
>device, i.e. Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras

One more for MSN Messenger. It supports an IP camera. At the bottom
of the "Video Control" tab, is a box labelled "Manual Add IP". Insert
the IP address and port number of an IP camera (or wireless network
camera), and MSN Mess will use it for video input. See the docs for
the 9100A ethernet 4 port video server ($100 on eBay) at:
<http://www.aviosys.com/images/9100(A)%20Plus%20Manual-NB%20-V2.37.pdf>
(2.3MBytes) on page 11 and 12.

There's also support for the VFM interface, which drops images in some
directory on the hard disk for MSN or Yahoo to pickup. That works
with anything that supports DirectX, the older MSN versions,
Brooktrout Amcap, Windoze Media Encoder, and possibly NetMeeting (not
sure about that one).

>If you could give us an idea what you are trying to do, we could give you
>better ideas.

Yep. I would be interested in why an IM (instant messaging) camera
needs to be wireless. This is not the first time this question has
appeared in this usenet newsgroup. I'm wondering if there's an
appication or need I've missed.

Drivel: My office IM video setup is currently a cheapo Creative Labs
USB camera. Lousy picture, but I don't really care for this
application. However, the previous setup was a Haupanague
(Brooktrout) PCI card and a monsterous VHS tape camera/recorder with a
really nifty lens and iris system. I think I paid $15 for the card
and $20 for the camera and tripod. The images were superior to
anything I've seen in a USB camera, but it was just too big to fit in
my messy office.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

A bit more detail about what I want to do...

I would like to setup a web cam just to use on MSN Messenger and so that
when I talk to friends, they can see me. I would like to simply be able to
just clip it to my laptop or monitor, just something small will be fine.
Currently I use a Bluetooth headset to talk on MSN and just wanted the
equivalent in a web cam. I wanted wireless or bluetooth only because I do
not want any more wires on my desk, and bluetooth is portable and flexible
as you can put it or move it around the desk with ease.

It seems difficult to find something like this online. The only things I
find alot of are USB web cams eg. Logitech

"DTC" <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote in message
news:rD4Eh.6229$Jl.5681@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> April wrote:
>> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam
>> to purchase to use on MSN Messenger.
>
> As far as I know, MSN (or any other IM applications requires:
>
> 1) A USB device.
>
> 2) OR as Jeff pointed out, any device that Windows recognizes as an
> imaging device, i.e. Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras
>
> [snipped from Jeff's post]
> Nope. I like to use camera servers and various PCI card video
> digitizers. I don't use MSN Mess, but they all work with Yahoo, AOL
> AIM, GAIM, Trillian, Skype, and such. Under Windoze XP, any device
> that shows up under:
> Control Panel -> Scanners and Cameras
> [end snip]
>
> If you could give us an idea what you are trying to do, we could give you
> better ideas.
>
> If you want to monitor a remote location, you could certainly use a low
> quality USB cam under $100 or for better quality a digital camcorder like
> the $200 JVC GR-D350, following up what Jeff was saying.
>
> Or you might consider an actual video camera. Here you have two
> possibilities: NTSC video output video camera ($200-$700) and connect it
> to a video card in your computer or an IP camera ($600-$1,300) which is
> already ethernet networking ready. Some require a proprietary add on to
> view them, usually a Active X driver (which means its viewable from only
> with the Internet Explorer web browser). Both ideas can be viewed from any
> location via the internet.
>
> The #1 rule in video imagery is: The lower the cost of the camera, the
> lower th image quality.
>
> Someone bought a package of $150 Q-See NTSC video output cameras and
> digital video recorder. The image quality was terrible as the cameras did
> not have an auto iris and couldn't render bright light and dark parking
> lot. They might be fine for controlled average office lighting. They
> exchanged the cameras for a $200 auto iris type, but still the imagery was
> not near as good as a commercial grade camera.
>
> For NTSC video output cameras, base price around $300 to $700 and add $150
> to $200 for the lens assembly (but no remote control). The Toshiba
> IK-WB152A runs about $800+ and is IP ready with remote control pan, tilt,
> and 5x zoom lens. The IK-WB20A is what I have mounted on my truck's roof
> with 22x optical zoom, but they retail for $1,300..but the imagery is
> incredible at 1280x900 pixels (super VGA).
>
>

April wrote:
> I would like to setup a web cam just to use on MSN Messenger and so that
> when I talk to friends, they can see me. I would like to simply be able to
> just clip it to my laptop or monitor, just something small will be fine.
> I wanted wireless or bluetooth only because I do
> not want any more wires on my desk, and bluetooth is portable and flexible
> as you can put it or move it around the desk with ease.

OK, now we have a better idea of what you want. Basically you want
something wireless for the convenience factor of not having wires on your
desk, high definition imagery isn't needed, and you'll be able to control
the ambient lighting all the time.

I suspect that any wireless cam is going to be too big to clip on a laptop
and much larger than the typical USB cam to clip on a laptop or small tripod.

I really think that a mid-range USB cam with a cable will be your best bet
for now. *Eventually* someone will come up with a Bluetooth webcam.

"April" <noreply@mail.com> hath wroth:

>I would like to setup a web cam just to use on MSN Messenger and so that
>when I talk to friends, they can see me. I would like to simply be able to
>just clip it to my laptop or monitor, just something small will be fine.

Ok, so it has to be:
1. Wireless
2. Self powered.
3. Portable.
4. MSN Messenger compatible.
5. Small enough to clip onto a laptop screen.

>Currently I use a Bluetooth headset to talk on MSN and just wanted the
>equivalent in a web cam. I wanted wireless or bluetooth only because I do
>not want any more wires on my desk, and bluetooth is portable and flexible
>as you can put it or move it around the desk with ease.

Well, there are limitations to what can be done with Bluegoof. The
basic problem is that BT 1.1 runs at about 350Mbits/sec maximum. BT
2.0 will go to twice that on a good day. The result is very slow file
transfers which will also make BT unsuitable for live video.

There are several cameras on the market that have BT built in, but are
NOT able to produce live pictures such as required by a IM camera. For
example, this nightmare of a digital camera:
<http://pcworld.about.com/magazine/2203p072id114494.htm>
takes 15 minutes to move 7MBytes of JPG's via BT. That's about one
frame per minute. For live video, you would need at least one or two
frames per second. Bottom line on a BT live camera is that the speed
is lacking.

Wi-Fi has the speed, and will easily do live video. Finding something
that fits all the aformentioned requirements will be difficult. The
first 4 requirements are easy. The size requirement is pure hell. Are
you sure you need to have it small enough to clip onto a laptop
screen?

>It seems difficult to find something like this online. The only things I
>find alot of are USB web cams eg. Logitech

Actually, the trend is to build the camera into the laptop. I have a
Sony Picturebook that does that. Some Acer laptops have a built in
camera. I don't have time to search right now, but you might want to
start here:
<http://www.networkcamerareviews.com/networkcameras/>
and select "wireless" in the guide. Check what powers the wireless IP
camera and build a battery pack. It's not small and will not clip
onto the laptop, but it will fit on the monitor or desktop without
wires. I'll do some more searching after I'm done playing with the
toys I bought yesterday.

Incidentally, I recently had a similar application. The customer
wanted a wireless camera that would take continuous photos of his
face. It was to be clipped onto the bill of a baseball cap, pointed
at his face, and take continuous videos while he underwent a stress
test. The biggest headache was finding optics that would have the
necessary depth of field so that the entire face remained in focus.

I ended up using one of the 2.4GHz "spy cameras" which might be
suitable for your application. Search Google for "wireless spy
camera" and you should find plenty. The problem is that none of them
use either BT or Wi-Fi. They use 2.4GHz VSB modulated analog video
and will require a receiver and NTSC video to computer interface. In
effect, you're transfering the bulk of the electronics from the camera
end, to the computer end. Also, you won't like the price tags.

If your laptop happens to have an NTSC composite video *INPUT*, this
might be a good way to do it. However, only a few laptops have this.
If it has a yellow phono connector, it's probably an NTSC video
*OUTPUT* which won't help.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Feb 23, 5:32 pm, "April" <nore...@mail.com> wrote:
> Please could someone advise me as to a good wireless / blue tooth webcam to
> purchase to use on MSN Messenger.
>
> Thank you.

I found these. Some of the cams have a microphone built in and I
think I saw one that comes with a headset.

http://www.techsourcepro.com/sections/items/?cat=28