Cal Vanize <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> hath wroth:
>But these are "toys" don't necessarily provide reliable service (and my
>point in using the term "toy").
How reliable would you like it? For the average home user, rebooting
the wireless router every few weeks is no big deal. After some
initial problems, router stressing protocols, such as Bitorrent, work
quite well. Granted, I've seem some really bad junk being sold as
wireless consumer grade products, but presumably one does not buy from
the very bottom of the market.
>Just cheap mass-produced [insert
>derogatory term here] that is compromised to a price point. And the
>compromises are against reliability and stability. They might look
>pretty but don't seem to hold up.
Ummm... Considering the number of power failures and glitches we get
every winter, I don't think uptime is a major issue. If I applied
commercial ISP standards to the average home computer installation,
literally every component, from the power conditioning, to the
antennas, would fail to comply. That's why there's a difference
between consumer and commercial. I have no problem with using
commercial hardware for consumer applications. However, I doubt if
Joe Sixpack is willing to pay the price.
Checking... well, my office WRT54G toy router, running DD-WRT v24, has
been up for 5 days (when I did the firmware upgrade). It's been
running for perhaps a year, with uptimes running around 4-5 weeks.
Downtime is usually inspired by me wanting to try some experiments
that require a power cycle. I think that's reliable enough.
>Agreed. Consumers trying to save a few bucks are vulnerable targets for
>this crap.
"Trying" is a bit of an understatement. Even Cisco bought a cheap
router company (Linksys) because they thought there was something good
about the product. The consumers are not only trying, they've
succeeded. There are plenty of user installed wireless systems that
work fine out of the box and do not require a CCNE to configure.
>Cheap stuff outsells quality most of the time. Cisco
>routers and A/Ps don't have the problems of the cheap junk so I would
>expect very few questions.
No, they have other problems. Joe Sixpack can't program a VCR or DVR,
can't set his digital clock, can't put the batteries into a toy, and
probably can't configure a Cisco router. That's why the wireless
industry has invented SES, AOSS and other setup aids.
<http://www.buffalotech.com/technology/our-technology/aoss/>
When the cheap wireless router biz was configuring their routers with
built in web based interfaces, I was doing battle with Cisco 25xx
series routers in IOS from the command line. It may take a while for
Cisco to discover and adopt simplicity from the cheap junk.
>I'm sure there are a lot fewer Cisco
>appliances in use except in serious applications where reliability and
>stability are valued.
Sure. I have a few Cisco wireless access points and bridges in
service. They work great. However, in the presence of interference
and path impairment issues, they don't work any better than commodity
wireless devices. Cisco's main advantage is in the weird and
wonderful protocols that most home users don't need. To Cisco's
credit, I've had no equipment field failures, while the consumer grade
stuff has experienced all manner of disgusting failures.
>There weren't many of the Gateway 7001s sold so I wouldn't expect to see
>many, if any, questions at all. At about $400 per copy, they priced
>themselves out of the market trying to compete against Cisco (with the
>Cisco reputation).
Dell also tried that with network hardware, and gave up. I didn't
mind them giving up on a bad idea. What bugged me is that they left
their "loyal" customers hanging. Gateway did much of the same thing,
but I think Acer might pickup the support. Dunno.
>I see all kinds of complaints about cheap networking appliances failing
>all the time. D-Link, Linksys, other cheap consumer crap sells good and
>then fails relatively quickly.
I don't. My guess is about less than 1% genuine hardware failure
rate. Most of these are due to power glitches, idiot errors, or
physical damage. My biggest headaches are the constant firmware
updates required to keep ahead of bugs and exploits, plus companies
that abandon their existing customers by NOT releasing firmware
updates for known bugs. However, I'm fairly careful to avoid vendors
and product that have these issues.
>In the meantime, users having problems
>don't understand that the quality of this crap is really negatively
>contributing to their limited service levels.
I think they're learning to tolerate it. Most consumer electronics is
essentially throw away. Cell phones have an 18 month average life
time. I suspect wireless routers run about 3 years before they are
replaced. DSL modems about 4 years. I don't even wanna touch the
lifetime of TV's and hi-fi. Not only does Joe Sixpack understand that
he's buying commodity junk hardware, he likes it because of the low
price.
Have you ever tried to sell Cisco hardware to a home user? I'm not
talking about buying used stuff off eBay. I mean new, out of the box,
with warranty, and possibly a service contract? I have and actually
succeeded, once. I wish I hadn't because I was expected to provide
what amounted to an SLA (service level agreement). The Cisco 826
DSL/router combo was fine, but the PBI/SBC/AT&T DSL service and phone
lines were awful and accounted for most of the service calls. I lost
money on this one.
>Good quality components (Cisco, most 3Com, high-end D-Link / Netgear)
>typically provides reliable service and rarely fails. No resets
>required, no power cycling, no "getting lost" on the LAN.
I have specific issues with some of the allegedly high end D-Link and
Netgear equipment. I've tried it and was not impressed. Most of it
is re-labeled equipment from tiny specialty manufacturers. The large
vendors stick their name on the box, offer zero support, and sell the
initial production run. Then, they drop the product because the
customers are complaining. The small company can't handle the support
load, so that creates an essentially abandoned product, even while
it's still being sold. Specifics if you really want them.
>FYI, a used Cisco 831 on eBay is about the same price, maybe a little
>more, than the network toys that fall apart in a few months. A Cisco
>1121g recently went for under $100 inc. shipping, a 1231g for under $120
>inc. shipping. These tools are robust and provide reliable
>connectivity. Put these on a UPS and they just never go down.
Yep. There's enough there that I could probably support my business
re-selling used hardware. That makes Cisco hardware price
competitive. However, the few pieces of Cisco hardware I've bought
this way have all burned far too much time. All needed firmware
updates. Some didn't work. I don't mind doing this, but it does take
the edge off the price benefit. However, Joe Sixpack would never be
able to do any of this. Are you suggesting that some of the users in
this newsgroup purchase Cisco access points on eBay and deal with
these problems? I hope not.
>If you're charging for customer support, wouldn't you want to recommend
>better components? In the long run, wouldn't it be cheaper?
I'm almost retired, so keeping the phone from ringing is slowly
becoming a priority. I want a happy customer but there's a problem. I
rarely make the initial sale. My purpose in life seems to be fix the
mess after it's totally screwed up by someone else. I do mostly
troubleshooting, damage control, rework, and repairs. With wireless,
it's almost always an installation or interference issue, not an
equipment issue. Where I do find absolute junk or defective hardware,
I'll sell a replacement.
I do better with the coffee shop installs, where I'm able to specify
my choice of cheap commodity wireless routers. In this case, you're
correct. I've been seeing problems that would best be solved with a
better grade of hardware. I proposed a solution upgrading from
Buffalo hardware to Sonicwall TZ-170w. The customer refused due to
the price tag and now declares that he's willing to live with the
problems. I don't think I would have done any better specifying
Cisco.
>Nice feature on the Panny. NOBODY in our neighborhood uses ch1 or ch11
>because of the wireless phone issues.
I'm in an office complex with about 6 businesses. 5 of them have
wireless. 4 of those are on channel 6. (I didn't set these up). All
of them are happy because the wireless is lightly used (mostly visitor
laptops and PDA's). I initially put myself on Ch1 and found that my
2.4GHz cordless phones start their scans at the bottom of the band.
So, I moved to Ch11 and lived happily ever after.
>> I should try my home WRT54G on auto, but I don't want to disrupt our
>> neighborhood WLAN that's running on it. I'll play with it at the
>> office, where I can do some real damage.
>Just out of curiosity, are you running separate VLANs for your WLAN?
No. I have "AP isolation" enabled in the WRT54GS router. That keeps
the wireless users from seeing each other. The wireless part of the
WRT54GS will not forward packets from wireless to wireless. I also
use this in coffee shop installs. I have used VLAN's to isolate
public and private wireless networks.
>(Is that feature supported on a WRT54G?)
Not with the stock firmware. DD-WRT supports VLAN's but the firmware
seems very beta. I had problems with wireless VLAN's and dual SSID's.
However, setting up a separate VLAN on an ethernet port works fine.
<http://www.informatione.gmxhome.de/DDWRT/Standard/V24BetaVPN/Vlan.html>
<http://www.geek-pages.com/articles/latest/dd-wrt_-_setting_up_a_separate/isolated_vlan_on_port_4_with_dhcp.html>
EoIP (ethernet over IP) tunneling is also supported:
<http://www.informatione.gmxhome.de/DDWRT/Standard/V24BetaVPN/eop-tunnel.html>
but I haven't had a chance to play with it. I've been told there are
bugs and that it currently only works in bridge mode.
>And what kind of security /
>access has been implemented on the "neighborhood WLAN" to limit
>unauthorized access?
Lots of trees to block the RF. It's really crude and should not be
used as an example of how to setup a neighborhood LAN. I use no
encryption and MAC filtering. I monitor access with arpwatch. Someone
could break in, but I would know about it rapidly. I've had more
problems with "wiretaps" into the CAT5, coax, and fiber running
through the forest, than with wireless. Not only does the security
suck, the traffic can be sniffed. There's considerable old 802.11b
WEP only hardware in the system that needs to be replaced. The only
reason there haven't been problems is that I know all the neighbors
within range (as limited by the forest). This would never work in my
palatial office, where WPA-PSK is mandatory because even the local
street bums have laptops and wireless PDA's.
I have a stand alone RADIUS server sitting on my bench (PC104 based)
that I'm going to eventually deploy for WPA-RADIUS with 802.1x
authentication on the neighborhood WLAN. The main consideration is
that it makes no noise and draws little power. That means no fan and
no hard disk. I'm trying to run the whole mess on a 1GB compact flash
card, but I'm out of space. I should have a 4GB card shortly, which
should be sufficient. I'm also looking at some stand alone
authentication products.
--
Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060
http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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