Biquad on Dish Question

I have what I call my reference antenna an MFJ-1800 spec says 15db gain (hmm
?)
best signal is -72dbm to -70dbm.

My test signal is in a building about 100 yards away.

I built the biquad with 30cm lips my best signal strength is -74dbm .
when I mount the biquad on a 18"x36" offset feed dish (looks like this)
http://www.2000networks.com/accessor...rnational.html
the best signal I get is -64dbm, a 10 db gain over biquad alone.

Is that the gain you would expect?

I found the original feed position wasn't optimum, I had to raise the biquad
about 2"
and also back it away from the dish about 2" to peak the signal.

What is are your thoughts about that?

Mike
PS.
I question the the MFJs gain because the modified (110mm and lips) biquad
is only 2 to 4 db less than the MFJ. If I did good, and got 8db gain from
the biquad then that looks like 10 to 11db gain for the MFJ. I do understand
antenna measurements can be difficult. That said, I have used the MFJ-1800
for almost a year now and think it is
a good buy at $30.00 plus shipping.

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:29:18 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

>I have what I call my reference antenna an MFJ-1800 spec says 15db gain (hmm
>?)
>best signal is -72dbm to -70dbm.
>
>My test signal is in a building about 100 yards away.
>
>I built the biquad with 30cm lips my best signal strength is -74dbm .
>when I mount the biquad on a 18"x36" offset feed dish (looks like this)
>http://www.2000networks.com/accessor...rnational.html
>the best signal I get is -64dbm, a 10 db gain over biquad alone.
>
>Is that the gain you would expect?
>
>I found the original feed position wasn't optimum, I had to raise the biquad
>about 2"
>and also back it away from the dish about 2" to peak the signal.
>
>What is are your thoughts about that?

Ok, let's play with the numbers. First, with a reflector type
antenna, the gain of the biquad feed is not important. It's sole
purpose is to "illuminate" the reflector. If the beamwidth of the
feed is too wide, you lose gain in transmit. If the beamwidth of the
feed is too narrow, you lose gain in both receive and xmit because
you're not using the full area of the reflector. See:
<http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/contents.htm>
<http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/chap4.pdf>

When dealing with elliptical reflectors, that are designed to handle
multiple feeds (for multiple satellites), you don't get the benefits
of the entire dish. The offset feed also means the effective cross
sectional area is somewhat less than the physical area. I'm too lazy
to work out the exact number, but my guess(tm) is that the DirecTV
dish has an effective circular diameter of about 60 cm. In other
words, the bulk of the reflector is not used.

The maximum gain of a dish antenna can be calculated.
Assuming you did everything perfectly, and the feed was properly
matched to the dish f/D ratio, then:
Maximum gain for a 60 cm meter diameter dish:
gain = 9.87 * Dia^2 / wavelength^2 * (feed efficiency)
gain = 9.87 * 600mm^2 / 125mm^2 * 0.4
gain = 91
dBi = 10 log(91) = 19.5dBi
The 40% efficiency (that's the 0.4) is probably optimistic for your
home made feed. Again, the numbers assume that everything is
lossless, perfectly matched, built correctly, and properly designed.

Your 10dB difference is gain is very close to what I would expect
(i.e. calculate). The typical biquad has 8-11dBi gain. See:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Biquad/>
So if I give the biquad a 9dBi gain and the dish perhaps 18dBi of
theoretical gain, then an 9dB difference is about what you would see.
Close enough to your 10dB difference.

Some stuff on dishes and feeds from my bookmark pile:
<http://www.findmorecollectibles.com/wifi.html>
<http://www.weijand.nl/wifi/>
<http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/wgfeed.htm>
<http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/15/how-to-build-a-wifi-biquad-dish-antenna/>
<http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/parabolic.htm>

>I question the the MFJs gain because the modified (110mm and lips) biquad
>is only 2 to 4 db less than the MFJ.

MFJ means "Might Fine Junk". They also no longer sell or support the
MFJ-1800 antenna. The link:
<http://www.mfjenterprises.com/produc...rodid=MFJ-1800 >
is dead. My guess(tm) is about 13dBi gain at best.

>If I did good, and got 8db gain from
>the biquad then that looks like 10 to 11db gain for the MFJ. I do understand
>antenna measurements can be difficult.

Ummmm..... yeah, that's an understatement. Actually, it's not
difficult to make the measurement. The problem is finding a place to
do the testing that isn't full of reflections and interference. I've
found the deep dark forest to be fairly good as the trees absorb all
the reflections. The only problem is that I have to elevate the test
antennas well above the roadway to prevent ground bounces.

>That said, I have used the MFJ-1800
>for almost a year now and think it is
>a good buy at $30.00 plus shipping.

I have a bad attitude about yagis. They have their place but are a
PITA to build, maintain, install, and design. I much prefer a panel
antenna which is much simpler, easier to mount, waterproof, wider
bandwidth, and only slightly more dollars. How about 13dBi gain for
$36?
<http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=893&cat=0&page=1>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks for all that info Jeff,

I'll take some time to digest it, especially chapter 4. Also thanks for
for the link to the panel antenna. I think I'll purchase that just to
compare to the yagi. Oh, I find the yagi link does work.
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...uctid=MFJ-1800

Two more questions.
Regarding you formula;
> Maximum gain for a 60 cm meter diameter dish:
> gain = 9.87 * Dia^2 / wavelength^2 * (feed efficiency)
> gain = 9.87 * 600mm^2 / 125mm^2 * 0.4
> gain = 91
> dBi = 10 log(91) = 19.5dBi

Where does the 9.87 come from?

At my boat location, I find I need to have a signal strength of -76dbm
to log on. If any weaker it won't work.
At home I logged on with -90dbm with good speed.
One big difference between locations is this, on the boat I have 10 to 14
signals that I can see, at home it's one signal.

Why do I need the stronger signal on the boat. (interference?)
Thanks, Mike

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:41:07 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

>Oh, I find the yagi link does work.
>http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...uctid=MFJ-1800

So much for my bookmarks. Note that the MFJ-1800 is NOT listed on the
antennas page:
<http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Catergories.php?sec=14>

> Two more questions.

Groan...

> Regarding you formula;
>> Maximum gain for a 60 cm meter diameter dish:
>> gain = 9.87 * Dia^2 / wavelength^2 * (feed efficiency)
>> gain = 9.87 * 600mm^2 / 125mm^2 * 0.4
>> gain = 91
>> dBi = 10 log(91) = 19.5dBi
>
> Where does the 9.87 come from?

See formula at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabolic_antenna>
It's Pi squared.

>At my boat location, I find I need to have a signal strength of -76dbm
>to log on. If any weaker it won't work.
> At home I logged on with -90dbm with good speed.
>One big difference between locations is this, on the boat I have 10 to 14
>signals that I can see, at home it's one signal.

Welcome to the joy of interference. You might be able to improve
things at your end using a highly directional antenna. However, the
interference will still be present at the access point end of the
link, resulting in no real improvement. Also, high gain antennas have
narrow beamwidths, which causes problems as the vessel rolls in the
waves.

Also, see:
<http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_on_a_Boat>
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.wireless/browse_thread/thread/debebce6300cd6d2/>

> Why do I need the stronger signal on the boat. (interference?)

Probably. The big question is interference at which end of the link?
If it's at your end, there's plenty you can do with antennas. If it's
at the access point end, there's not much you can do.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks Jeff,
Sorry, I missed the Pi^2 on that page, I looked several places and couldn't
find it.
I'll study and try to leave you alone,,, for awhile!
Thanks again,
Mike

On Jul 13, 11:06*pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:29:18 -0500, "amdx" <a...@knology.net> wrote:
> >I have what I call my reference antenna an MFJ-1800 spec says 15db gain (hmm
> >?)
> >best signal is -72dbm to -70dbm.
>
> >My test signal is in a building about 100 yards away.
>
> >I built the biquad with 30cm lips my best signal strength is -74dbm .
> >when I mount the biquad on a 18"x36" offset feed dish (looks like this)
> >http://www.2000networks.com/accessor...h_directv_inte...
> >the best signal I get is -64dbm, a 10 db gain over biquad alone.
>
> >Is that the gain you would expect?
>
> >I found the original feed position wasn't optimum, I had to raise the biquad
> >about 2"
> >and also back it away from the dish about 2" to peak the signal.
>
> >What is are your thoughts about that?
>
> Ok, let's play with the numbers. *First, with a reflector type
> antenna, the gain of the biquad feed is not important. *It's sole
> purpose is to "illuminate" the reflector. *If the beamwidth of the
> feed is too wide, you lose gain in transmit. *If the beamwidth of the
> feed is too narrow, you lose gain in both receive and xmit because
> you're not using the full area of the reflector. *See:
> <http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/contents.htm>
> <http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/chap4.pdf>
>
> When dealing with elliptical reflectors, that are designed to handle
> multiple feeds (for multiple satellites), you don't get the benefits
> of the entire dish. *The offset feed also means the effective cross
> sectional area is somewhat less than the physical area. *I'm too lazy
> to work out the exact number, but my guess(tm) is that the DirecTV
> dish has an effective circular diameter of about 60 cm. *In other
> words, the bulk of the reflector is not used.
>
> The maximum gain of a dish antenna can be calculated.
> Assuming you did everything perfectly, and the feed was properly
> matched to the dish f/D ratio, then:
> Maximum gain for a 60 cm meter diameter dish:
> * *gain = 9.87 * Dia^2 / wavelength^2 * (feed efficiency) *
> * *gain = 9.87 * 600mm^2 / 125mm^2 * 0.4
> * *gain = 91
> * *dBi = 10 log(91) = 19.5dBi
> The 40% efficiency (that's the 0.4) is probably optimistic for your
> home made feed. *Again, the numbers assume that everything is
> lossless, perfectly matched, built correctly, and properly designed. *
>
> Your 10dB difference is gain is very close to what I would expect
> (i.e. calculate). *The typical biquad has 8-11dBi gain. *See:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Biquad/>
> So if I give the biquad a 9dBi gain and the dish perhaps 18dBi of
> theoretical gain, then an 9dB difference is about what you would see.
> Close enough to your 10dB difference.
>
> Some stuff on dishes and feeds from my bookmark pile:
> <http://www.findmorecollectibles.com/wifi.html>
> <http://www.weijand.nl/wifi/>
> <http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/wgfeed.htm>
> <http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/15/how-to-build-a-wifi-biquad-dish-an...>
> <http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/parabolic.htm>
>
> >I question the the MFJs gain because the modified (110mm and lips) biquad
> >is only 2 to 4 db less than the MFJ.
>
> MFJ means "Might Fine Junk". *They also no longer sell or support the
> MFJ-1800 antenna. *The link:
> <http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1800>
> is dead. *My guess(tm) is about 13dBi gain at best.
>
> >If I did good, and got 8db gain from
> >the biquad then that looks like 10 to 11db gain for the MFJ. I do understand
> >antenna measurements can be difficult.
>
> Ummmm..... yeah, that's an understatement. *Actually, it's not
> difficult to make the measurement. *The problem is finding a place to
> do the testing that isn't full of reflections and interference. *I've
> found the deep dark forest to be fairly good as the trees absorb all
> the reflections. *The only problem is that I have to elevate the test
> antennas well above the roadway to prevent ground bounces.
>
> >That said, I have used the MFJ-1800
> >for almost a year now and think it is
> >a good buy at $30.00 plus shipping.
>
> I have a bad attitude about yagis. *They have their place but are a
> PITA to build, maintain, install, and design. *I much prefer a panel
> antenna which is much simpler, easier to mount, waterproof, wider
> bandwidth, and only slightly more dollars. *How about 13dBi gain for
> $36?
> <http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=893&cat=0&page=1>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann * * je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558- Hide quoted text-
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have some friends who tinkered around a lot trying to get a used sat
TV dish to work. They had simliar results as the OP. I think they
finally opted for a QUagi antenna consisting of quad driven element
reflector and one director and several yagi type directors. They also
experimented with some of the large TVRO antennas and the gain on
these was awsome.


Jimmie

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:16:08 -0700 (PDT), jimmie68@gmail.com wrote:

>I have some friends who tinkered around a lot trying to get a used sat
>TV dish to work. They had simliar results as the OP.

I've done it successfully. This is an early version:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Misc/slides/primestar.html>
The only tricks are to make sure the feed matches the f/D ratio of the
dish, and to *NOT* use dishes made from multiple LNB's.

>I think they
>finally opted for a QUagi antenna consisting of quad driven element
>reflector and one director and several yagi type directors. They also
>experimented with some of the large TVRO antennas and the gain on
>these was awsome.

Reminder.... there is a legal limit to EIRP.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

..
>
> I have a bad attitude about yagis. They have their place but are a
> PITA to build, maintain, install, and design. I much prefer a panel
> antenna which is much simpler, easier to mount, waterproof, wider
> bandwidth, and only slightly more dollars. How about 13dBi gain for
> $36?
> <http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=893&cat=0&page=1>
>
I think I found the same antenna a little cheaper, but to late for me.
http://www.sparcotech.com/cgi-bin/co...on&key=PA24-13
$31.00

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:48:19 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

>.
>>
>> I have a bad attitude about yagis. They have their place but are a
>> PITA to build, maintain, install, and design. I much prefer a panel
>> antenna which is much simpler, easier to mount, waterproof, wider
>> bandwidth, and only slightly more dollars. How about 13dBi gain for
>> $36?
>> <http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=893&cat=0&page=1>

> I think I found the same antenna a little cheaper, but to late for me.
>http://www.sparcotech.com/cgi-bin/co...on&key=PA24-13
> $31.00

Yeah, the photos look identical. There's also:
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120175683098>
along with a mess of others in the same price range and gain spec.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:m22i84tif8a6587kuas89mhrnntj8itff2@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:48:19 -0500, "amdx" <amdx@knology.net> wrote:
>
>>.
>>>
>>> I have a bad attitude about yagis. They have their place but are a
>>> PITA to build, maintain, install, and design. I much prefer a panel
>>> antenna which is much simpler, easier to mount, waterproof, wider
>>> bandwidth, and only slightly more dollars. How about 13dBi gain for
>>> $36?
>>> <http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?productid=893&cat=0&page=1>
>
>> I think I found the same antenna a little cheaper, but to late for me.
>>http://www.sparcotech.com/cgi-bin/co...on&key=PA24-13
>> $31.00
>
> Yeah, the photos look identical. There's also:
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120175683098>
> along with a mess of others in the same price range and gain spec.
> --
Check out the data sheet on this page; (The 13dbi is the one we're
discusing)
http://www.pacwireless.com/products/pa24_panel.shtml
It shows the 13dbi, 16dbi, and 19dbi Beampatterns. The 19dbi has a lot of
sidelobes!
Btw, I put my biquad on the 18" by 22" dish. The best I could get is 4 db
over the MFJ Yagi. Might be able to tweak a little more out of it.

Mike