Cellular and Wi-Fi, a perfect marriage? What about VoIP?

Coming soon to the USA?

T-Mobile bundles Wi-Fi with Web 'n Walk
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/09/t_mobile_bundling_wi_fi/>

T-Mobile customers signing up to Web 'n Walk Plus (or Max) will get
free access to the operator's 39,000 hot spots from January. So for
£12.50 a month users can get 3G and Wi-Fi connectivity, and be
allowed to use instant messaging too...

Web 'n Walk is already one of the more attractive options for users
wanting mobile internet access, though usage restrictions on the
basic service limit it to general web browsing. The Plus, and Max,
services offer a higher fair-use level and permission to use instant
messaging and such like. Charging users again for T-Mobile-branded
Wi-Fi access always seemed harsh, even if it comes with truly
unlimited quantities of data.

Of course, 3G networks are expensive to run, and moving punters onto
Wi-Fi with cheap back-haul (over ADSL lines) should save T-Mobile
money. But that's only true if the users would have been using their
data connections anyway, so offering it as an addition to Web 'n Walk
makes sense.

Users get faster connections, while T-Mobile saves money - the
wonders that convergence can bring! As long as punters don't start
using the service for VoIP - that would still be against the terms
and conditions.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

John Navas wrote:

> Coming soon to the USA?
>
> T-Mobile bundles Wi-Fi with Web 'n Walk
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/09/t_mobile_bundling_wi_fi/>


Coming soon... Two years ago! ;-)

T-Mo's current cellular "Total Internet" data plans already include access
to T-Mo's tens of thousands of US WiFi "Hotspots." Your username is your
phone number, and your password (until you change it) is the last 4 of your
SSN.

The service works on any WiFi enabled device- your phone, your laptop, etc.
(Only one simultaneous login allowed, of course.)

It's $19.99/month if added to a voice plan, $29.99 "standalone" on a phone
(plus $0.20/minute for any voice calls you might make), or $39.99 on a GPRS
laptop PC card. (The $29.99-39.99 price difference makes as little sense
as AT&T's PDA/smartphone distinction, since the $29.99 on-a-phone plan
allows tethering.)

Although T-Mo USA has been pretty silent about their upcoming 3G deployment
this coming year, I don't think they plan to separate the WiFi from future
3G plans- the Hotspot network has long been used as a "value add" for
adoption of their data plans. (As well as a Band-Aid for being the only
national US carrier without 3G!)

I'm surprised, however, T-Mo hasn't expanded their "Hotspots@Home" UMA
service (GSM voice calls over the internet from your, or any open access
point or T-Mo's Hotspot network) into Europe yet.

UMA (Unlicensed Mobile Access) is sort of T-Mo's answer to femtocells- it
uses a UMA WiFi-enabled cellphone to transmit and receive GSM voice packets
over the internet instead of the cell network. This eliminates
international roaming if you can place a UMA call instead of a GSM call
overseas, in addition to the obvious benefit of allowing "cellular" service
in any non-served area where there's broadband available without the
hassles of using VoIP (yet another phone number, separate VM box, dealing
with forwading one service to another, etc.)

UMA would've been handy for me last week when I was in Cancun- I could've
seemlessly "roamed" for free on the hotel's free WiFi instead of forwarding
my cell to my VoIP number and using the sub-par voice quality VoIP client
on my WinMo phone to escape T-Mo's "generous" $1.49/minute roaming rates on
Telcel and Movistar.

In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> I'm surprised, however, T-Mo hasn't expanded their "Hotspots@Home" UMA
> service (GSM voice calls over the internet from your, or any open access
> point or T-Mo's Hotspot network) into Europe yet.

That does seem like the cool setup for someone like me, living in a valley
with poor cell coverage, but excellent WiFi in the house ;-)
T-Mobile isn't offered here, although they can roam onto the local "Edge
Wireless (AT&T partner)".

> This eliminates international roaming if you can place a UMA call instead
> of a GSM call overseas,

Really? Do you know it works that way? That could be worth buying a
T-Mobile phone all by itself.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

In <fm3ubj$f34$4@blue.rahul.net> dold@70.usenet.us.com writes:

>In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
>> I'm surprised, however, T-Mo hasn't expanded their "Hotspots@Home" UMA
>> service (GSM voice calls over the internet from your, or any open access
>> point or T-Mo's Hotspot network) into Europe yet.

>That does seem like the cool setup for someone like me, living in a valley
>with poor cell coverage, but excellent WiFi in the house ;-)
>T-Mobile isn't offered here, although they can roam onto the local "Edge
>Wireless (AT&T partner)".

If you can establish a t-mobile account (find a friend
or workplace address...) then you can set up the 802.11
base in your home and talk away to your heaart's content.

Note that you've got to use one of the t-mobile phones
that incorporates the wifi ability.

>> This eliminates international roaming if you can place a UMA call instead
>> of a GSM call overseas,

>Really? Do you know it works that way? That could be worth buying a
>T-Mobile phone all by itself.

Eyup. Haven't used it myself but I've had friends
who've doen so in Europe and in Israel. Call quality
ranged from excellent to decent, although there were
some with annoying lag times.

Caller ID said they were calling from their US number.

(That's presumably due to the extra distance, so
to speak, that the signal takes. Not only is there
the 10,000 mile wire length, but add in the various
delays from internet routing).


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in
news:u3eao39a5s536np0u34sinsup841kd9lta@4ax.com:

> Coming soon to the USA?
>

Not if SELLular can stop it. Their political hacks in the FCC, holding
their fingers on all the switches, will do everything in their power to
make SURE your wifi never reaches the other end of the house.

Europe is covered with SELLphone REPEATERS to fill in the gaping holes
Americans take for granted. That was very successfully squashed in the USA
for decades, now. Same idea.

SELLphone companies want to go back to selling bandwidth by the byte....you
know, like SMS messages. 15c/156 character message = $961,538.46/gigabyte,
the most expensive bandwidth on the PLANET! I bet that costs more than
sending data to Voyager 1!

Larry
--
As the price of Monopoly money rises, at some point it will equal
Federal Reserve Private Bank fake banknotes in value!

At 09 Jan 2008 21:14:03 -0500 Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>
> Whatever happened to the bi-mode phones that were both cellular and
> wifi, and when near a wifi spot switched seamlessly over to your T-Mo
> VoIP account?

Those are the UMA "Hotspot@Home" phones I mentioned.

Just to clarify, the system is not really VoIP- it transmits and receives
the GSM packets over the net- it's "GoIP" rather than VoIP... ;-) This is
what allows the calls to switch seamlessly between cellular and WiFi.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:54:06 +0000, Larry <noone@home.com> wrote in
<Xns9A21A34ECA14noonehomecom@208.49.80.253>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in
>news:u3eao39a5s536np0u34sinsup841kd9lta@4ax.com :
>
>> Coming soon to the USA?
>
>Not if SELLular can stop it. Their political hacks in the FCC, holding
>their fingers on all the switches, will do everything in their power to
>make SURE your wifi never reaches the other end of the house.

In what way? I see nothing like that from the FCC.

>Europe is covered with SELLphone REPEATERS to fill in the gaping holes
>Americans take for granted. That was very successfully squashed in the USA
>for decades, now. Same idea.

Not really -- the big differences are (a) single government-mandated
standard and (b) much smaller geography.

>SELLphone companies want to go back to selling bandwidth by the byte....you
>know, like SMS messages. 15c/156 character message = $961,538.46/gigabyte,
>the most expensive bandwidth on the PLANET! I bet that costs more than
>sending data to Voyager 1!

You would be wrong, but that's not the point, which is that packages are
much more efficient than pay-as-you-go.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

At 10 Jan 2008 02:02:27 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:
> > I'm surprised, however, T-Mo hasn't expanded their "Hotspots@Home" UMA
> > service (GSM voice calls over the internet from your, or any open access
> > point or T-Mo's Hotspot network) into Europe yet.
>
> That does seem like the cool setup for someone like me, living in a valley
> with poor cell coverage, but excellent WiFi in the house ;-)
> T-Mobile isn't offered here, although they can roam onto the local "Edge
> Wireless (AT&T partner)".


If you'd accept a phone number from the nearest T-Mo rate center, you could
probably establish service and use the "Hotspot" service at home. Keep in
mind that unless you spring for the $20 "Hotspot@Home" add-on, any WiFi
calls will count against your bucket of included minutes just as if you
called via cellular. (Which would be fine with me- I'm interested in H@H
for expanded coverage, not "free" calls.)

> > This eliminates international roaming if you can place a UMA call
instead
> > of a GSM call overseas,
>
> Really? Do you know it works that way? That could be worth buying a
> T-Mobile phone all by itself.

Yep- but overseas calls will not seamless transfer from WiFi to Cellular
like they do here, and access to T-Mo European WiFi Hotspots aren't
included (the domestic T-Mo Hotspots at Starbucks, bookstores, airports,
Kinkos, etc. are.)

John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in
news:v1gbo3pptdibar3f07pu1ki1jk9cukug0o@4ax.com:

> In what way? I see nothing like that from the FCC.
>

Of course you don't, John. You don't see what's going on at DoD or the
FED, either. SELLular has fought to stop wifi from ever taking place as it
threatens its business cash cow for many years. This nonsense is why Japan
has always lead in wifi implementation.



Larry
--
As the price of Monopoly money rises, at some point it will equal
Federal Reserve Private Bank fake banknotes in value!

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
917C50.05440110012008@nntp1.usenetserver.com:

> In article <Xns9A21A34ECA14noonehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
> Larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
>
>> > Coming soon to the USA?
>> >
>>
>> Not if SELLular can stop it.
>
> You disparage the wireless carriers and their users every time you write
> the word "SELLular", yet you yourself have thrown yourself into the ring
> voluntarily as a victim to this disease by paying for wireless service.
>
> You do know that you're showing yourself to be the same asshole as you
> declare the rest of the world to be, right?
>
>

And you must defend the undefensible at every turn. If that doesn't work,
you call them asshole.

Larry
--
As the price of Monopoly money rises, at some point it will equal
Federal Reserve Private Bank fake banknotes in value!

Larry wrote:
> I bet that costs more than sending data to Voyager 1!
>
Are you referring to the spaceship or the new LG phone??? ;-) It seems
that data sent to either is expensive these days.

Btw, I agree with these guys that the SELL thing, while homonyphically
clever at first, is overplayed at this point.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:26:45 +0000, Larry <noone@home.com> wrote in
<Xns9A2157510AA17noonehomecom@208.49.80.253>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in
>news:v1gbo3pptdibar3f07pu1ki1jk9cukug0o@4ax.com :
>
>> In what way? I see nothing like that from the FCC.
>
>Of course you don't, John. You don't see what's going on at DoD or the
>FED, either. SELLular has fought to stop wifi from ever taking place as it
>threatens its business cash cow for many years. This nonsense is why Japan
>has always lead in wifi implementation.

Sorry, but I see no real evidence of any of that.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> If you'd accept a phone number from the nearest T-Mo rate center, you could
> probably establish service and use the "Hotspot" service at home. Keep in

That would leave me as roaming more than 50% of the time. I had Cingular
before I moved into this area, but they don't seem to care that I roam onto
one of their partners a lot. I did have to change my address to somewhere
in the service area to order something on line, but since I get no USMail
from them, it didn't matter, and I switched it back soon after.

T-Mobile might not be as happy with the roaming.

> mind that unless you spring for the $20 "Hotspot@Home" add-on, any WiFi
> calls will count against your bucket of included minutes just as if you

I thought the $20 was a T-Mobile hotspot subscription. I missed anything
about the calling minutes.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

At 10 Jan 2008 17:04:05 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:

> That would leave me as roaming more than 50% of the time.

T-Mo doesn't seem too concerned about excessive roaming, at least compared
to other carriers. IIRC, they don't even threaten termination for it in
their TOS'. Keep in mind that WiFi calls count as on-network, so calls you
made at home over your WiFi wouldn't be roaming. Essentially you'd have a
very short-range T-Mo "tower" in your house in the middle of a roaming
area. ;-)

> I had Cingular
> before I moved into this area, but they don't seem to care that I roam
onto
> one of their partners a lot. I did have to change my address to somewhere
> in the service area to order something on line, but since I get no USMail
> from them, it didn't matter, and I switched it back soon after.
>
> T-Mobile might not be as happy with the roaming.


Not that I've ever noticed mentioned on an user forum like HoFo or
Phonescoop. Cingular has an "excessive roaming" clause in their TOS, but
it seems to go largely unenforced, as opposed to, say, Sprint's.


> > mind that unless you spring for the $20 "Hotspot@Home" add-on, any WiFi
> > calls will count against your bucket of included minutes just as if you
>
> I thought the $20 was a T-Mobile hotspot subscription. I missed anything
> about the calling minutes.


Confusingly, T-Mo has three seperate $20/month WiFi-related subscriptions-
their WiFi data-only Hotspot Plan, which does not include voice calls (and
which still exists, but was rendered useless by the following:), the "Total
Internet" plan (cellular data with Wi-Fi Hotspots included, which really
makes the Hotspots-only data plan obsolete since they're now the same price-
Total Internet used to be $30 until last Fall) and the "Hotspots@Home"
(H@H) plan which gives unlimited voice calls over WiFi on a WiFi-enabled
UMA phone, but doesn't include any data. This often confuses people since
it includes voice calls (but not data) at T-Mo Hotspots. So in theory, you
could buy a voice plan, an H@H plan for unlimited voice calls at T-Mo
Hotspots and a Total Internet plan for unlimited data via cellular and
Hotspots.

The point I was trying to make was that you don't need the $20 H@H add-on
to use the WiFi calling feature- it just makes internet calling "free", as
opposed to counting as a cellular call. It's really targeted at those who
intend to replace their landline with T-Mo, giving you unlimited calling at
home.

In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> UMA phone, but doesn't include any data. This often confuses people since
> it includes voice calls (but not data) at T-Mo Hotspots. So in theory, you

Aye. I was confused. I knew there was "data only", and @Home, but
expected that the @Home included the data, since it was allowing me to
connect with a phone... but only a phone, now that you mention it.

Are the phones samrt enough to allow me to use my AT&T-DSL included WiFi
access to make a connection from an AT&T hotspot?

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.t-mobile.]
On 2008-01-10, Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

> Not that I've ever noticed mentioned on an user forum like HoFo or
> Phonescoop. Cingular has an "excessive roaming" clause in their TOS, but
> it seems to go largely unenforced, as opposed to, say, Sprint's.

Cingular has a more mature network that probably has better coverage in many
spots than Sprint does. I'd say Sprint has good reason to be more concerned
about roaming.

--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com
Geek-for-hire. Details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevesobol

At 10 Jan 2008 22:25:38 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:

> Are the phones samrt enough to allow me to use my AT&T-DSL included WiFi
> access to make a connection from an AT&T hotspot?


Not if requires a browser-ba ed login. You can set and store WEP/WPK keys
and access point names for a number of "favorite" APs, but AFAIK, if you
need to log in, you're sunk.

> You do know that you're showing yourself to be the same asshole as you
> declare the rest of the world to be, right?

And he makes an ass of himself in other newsgroups too. It's pathetic.

In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> At 10 Jan 2008 22:25:38 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:
> > Are the phones smart enough to allow me to use my AT&T-DSL included WiFi
> > access to make a connection from an AT&T hotspot?

> Not if requires a browser-ba ed login. You can set and store WEP/WPK keys
> and access point names for a number of "favorite" APs, but AFAIK, if you
> need to log in, you're sunk.

Which would be any subscription network.
Except the $20 @Home T-Mobile, where you are pre-authorized.

Or am I incorrect? I recall something about T-Mobile recognizing a
subscriber MAC automatically, leading to some billable encounters when a
Starbucks was alongside a free hotspot.

Still, unless there is a way to remotely authorize a particular MAC, you
would have to be able to log in at least once.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

At 11 Jan 2008 17:24:43 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:

> > Not if requires a browser-based login. You can set and store WEP/WPK
keys
> > and access point names for a number of "favorite" APs, but AFAIK, if you
> > need to log in, you're sunk.
>
> Which would be any subscription network.
True!

> Except the $20 @Home T-Mobile, where you are pre-authorized.
>
> Or am I incorrect?

Correct- T-Mo Hotspots are setup to automagically accept UMA (Hotspot@Home)
calls. Whether those calls are "free" or counted like any other cell call
is dependent on whether you subscribe to the $20 H@H add-on.

> I recall something about T-Mobile recognizing a
> subscriber MAC automatically, leading to some billable encounters when a
> Starbucks was alongside a free hotspot.

No- T-Mo subscribers have to logon to use data just like anyone else- there
are no accidental "drive by" charges.

> Still, unless there is a way to remotely authorize a particular MAC, you
> would have to be able to log in at least once.

Not for H@H- it's automatic at T-Mo Hotspots, but you wouldn't be able to
use AT&T Hotspots for GSM-over-IP calls.

I'll vote "ass...."



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-90F78E.12095310012008@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> In article <Xns9A21577D7143Cnoonehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
> Larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
>
>> > You do know that you're showing yourself to be the same asshole as you
>> > declare the rest of the world to be, right?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> And you must defend the undefensible at every turn.
>
> That your use of your own made up term "SELLular" (sic) shows you to be
> the same asshole that you declare the rest of the world to be, is
> indefensible?
>
> Well. Let's take a vote, shall we?
>

In alt.internet.wireless Todd Allcock <elecconnec@americaonline.com> wrote:
> No- T-Mo subscribers have to logon to use data just like anyone else- there
> are no accidental "drive by" charges.

It was a while ago... maybe there was also a communication manager of some
sort doing an auto-login. Are you automatically recognized if you return
to the same hotspot later in the day?

What about a browser on the smart phone? Can it connect via WiFi instead
of cellular data? If it does, maybe you could log on to the network that
way. Once connected, the GSMoIP should work.

======================

A local free hotspot has only a WEP key for access. It's interesting to
note the folks that can and can't connect. Windows Vista seems to be
50/50. Mac laptops work, the iphone is iffy. I think one success and a
few failures. Only one WinXP failure, and it seemed very Vista-like.
Some small devices seem happy. I don't know if any of those are actually
T-Mobile devices.

There are, of course, plenty of pilot errors. Lots of folks who have never
connected wirelessly, and are stopping by for a test. Some with the little
switches turned off on the laptop, a lot without a clue how to get started.
The coffee shop workers are just knowledgeable enough to give a few
pointers for the newbies, no troubleshooting.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

At 12 Jan 2008 18:12:11 +0000 dold@70.usenet.us.com wrote:

> It was a while ago... maybe there was also a communication manager of
some
> sort doing an auto-login. Are you automatically recognized if you return
> to the same hotspot later in the day?


Perhaps- I've never used a T-Mo Hotspot except during a free trial period.
There is T-Mo Connection Manager software, but I've never used it- that
could account for an auto-login and resultant charges, maybe.


> What about a browser on the smart phone? Can it connect via WiFi instead
> of cellular data?

The UMA-enabled Blackberry? Yes, it can use data over WiFi, but I don't
know if logging-in via the browser authenticates the UMA portion, and I
haven't seen a clear answer on Howard Forums to what seems like an obvious
question.


> If it does, maybe you could log on to the network that
> way. Once connected, the GSMoIP should work.


You'd think so- it works for VoIP on my WinMo phone, so itshould for UMA- I
assume the UMA portion has the same MAC address.

> Coming soon to the USA?
>
> T-Mobile bundles Wi-Fi with Web 'n Walk
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/09/t_mobile_bundling_wi_fi/>
>
> T-Mobile customers signing up to Web 'n Walk Plus (or Max) will get
> free access to the operator's 39,000 hot spots from January. So for
> £12.50 a month users can get 3G and Wi-Fi connectivity, and be
> allowed to use instant messaging too...
>
> Web 'n Walk is already one of the more attractive options for users
> wanting mobile internet access, though usage restrictions on the
> basic service limit it to general web browsing. The Plus, and Max,
> services offer a higher fair-use level and permission to use instant
> messaging and such like. Charging users again for T-Mobile-branded
> Wi-Fi access always seemed harsh, even if it comes with truly
> unlimited quantities of data.

It's possible to call from a wifi-enabled cellphone to another phone
without even using a carrier or even a SIM card. Check out the youtube
demo at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPPrKUKkc8Q which shows how you
can use Fring software http://www.fring.com on your wifi phone to make
calls using any wifi connection. The calls are free between Fring users.
Calling costs vary if you're calling a cell or landline phone, depending
on your VOIP's outbound calling plan. Fring supports VOIP through SIP,
Yahoo, MSN, Skype, GoogleTalk, among others.

I'm not sure if using Fring through T-mobile's wifi connection will
offer the same savings if one uses it with a cheap VOIP plan, or if the
calls will count against your minutes.