Connection problems

Hello,

I have a newer Netgear wireless router. I set it up for home use and
three of us have been using it almost without incident; however, I'm
very new to 'wireless' networks and a I have a problem that I don't
know how to resolve. None of the other users can connect unless I
connect first?! Once I'm connected, then the other users can then
connect with their computers. Is there some setting I need to change or
create that would allow any of the users to connect without me
connecting first?

Also, a second but minor issue is that when I first boot up my computer
it shows that I'm connected at full strength, but I can't connect to the
internet with my browser unless I first run my Atomic clock program, or
update some other program. Once the time program connects and updates
then I can access the internet with my browser [Seamonkey or IE makes no
difference with respect to being unable to connect].


I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thank you,

ST

ST <stjunkie@nntpjunkie.com> hath wroth:

>I have a newer Netgear wireless router.

Does it have a model number? Look at the serial number tag. It will
have the model number and the hardware version number.

While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the operating
system running on your computah?

>I set it up for home use and
>three of us have been using it almost without incident;

That means that you probably ran the Windoze XP "Home Networking"
wizard. Big mistake. That sets up your computer as an NAT router
using ICS (internet connection sharing) for your other computers to
share your connection to the internet. That's probably why you need
to connect before anyone else can browse the internet.

>however, I'm
>very new to 'wireless' networks and a I have a problem that I don't
>know how to resolve.

Actually, you apparently have more than one problem.

>None of the other users can connect unless I
>connect first?! Once I'm connected, then the other users can then
>connect with their computers. Is there some setting I need to change or
>create that would allow any of the users to connect without me
>connecting first?

It would be interesting to know what IP addresses are being used by
each computer. If you're running XP, please run:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
IPCONFIG
and list the IP address and Gateway address for your computer and at
least one of the others. That will tell for sure if you're
accidentally running ICS.

>Also, a second but minor issue is that when I first boot up my computer
>it shows that I'm connected at full strength, but I can't connect to the
>internet with my browser unless I first run my Atomic clock program, or
>update some other program.

Your unspecified model broadband modem or unspecified Netgear router
has an "idle timer" set in it's configuration. It disconnects when
there's no internet activity. When you run something that access the
internet, it "dials", connects, and you're on for whatever is set in
the idle timer. This doesn't exactly fit your description, but I'm
more inclined to modify the evidence than ruin one of my pet theories.

>Once the time program connects and updates
>then I can access the internet with my browser [Seamonkey or IE makes no
>difference with respect to being unable to connect].

Does this "time program" have a name? There are a few such clock
programs that are actually spyware. Incidentally, I use SymmTime
(thanks to John Navas suggestion) which methinks is quite good.
<http://www.symmttm.com/download_symmtime_access.asp>

>I'd appreciate any suggestions.

1. Numbers and accurate details, not prose.
2. Describe your hardware and system better.
3. If ICS disable or remove it.
4. If an idle timer is set, set it to "0" which means forever.
5. Verify that your modem, router, and Windoze have the very latest
version firmware and updates.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> ST <stjunkie@nntpjunkie.com> hath wroth:
>
>> I have a newer Netgear wireless router.
>
> Does it have a model number? Look at the serial number tag. It will
> have the model number and the hardware version number.

Thank you for the reply. It's a Netgear RangeMax WPN824 v2
>
> While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the operating
> system running on your computah?


Windows Vista Home on a new Toshiba laptop.
>
>> I set it up for home use and
>> three of us have been using it almost without incident;
>
> That means that you probably ran the Windoze XP "Home Networking"
> wizard.

No, I didn't use that. I just used the installation instructions
that came with the router. I used WPA and gave the other users
the password and all is well except for the noted problems.

Big mistake. That sets up your computer as an NAT router
> using ICS (internet connection sharing) for your other computers to
> share your connection to the internet. That's probably why you need
> to connect before anyone else can browse the internet.
>
>> however, I'm
>> very new to 'wireless' networks and a I have a problem that I don't
>> know how to resolve.
>
> Actually, you apparently have more than one problem.
>
>> None of the other users can connect unless I
>> connect first?! Once I'm connected, then the other users can then
>> connect with their computers. Is there some setting I need to change or
>> create that would allow any of the users to connect without me
>> connecting first?
>
> It would be interesting to know what IP addresses are being used by
> each computer. If you're running XP, please run:
> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
> IPCONFIG
> and list the IP address and Gateway address for your computer and at
> least one of the others. That will tell for sure if you're
> accidentally running ICS.

Don't know if this is all you need.

IPv4 Address 192.168.1.4(Preferred)
Default Gateway 192.168.1.1.


>
>> Also, a second but minor issue is that when I first boot up my computer
>> it shows that I'm connected at full strength, but I can't connect to the
>> internet with my browser unless I first run my Atomic clock program, or
>> update some other program.
>
> Your unspecified model broadband modem



Network Adapter Properties
Network Adapter Atheros AR5007EG Wireless Network Adapter




or unspecified Netgear router
> has an "idle timer" set in it's configuration. It disconnects when
> there's no internet activity. When you run something that access the
> internet, it "dials", connects, and you're on for whatever is set in
> the idle timer. This doesn't exactly fit your description, but I'm
> more inclined to modify the evidence than ruin one of my pet theories.
>
>> Once the time program connects and updates
>> then I can access the internet with my browser [Seamonkey or IE makes no
>> difference with respect to being unable to connect].
>
> Does this "time program" have a name? There are a few such clock
> programs that are actually spyware.
AtomTime Pro v 3.1d

Incidentally, I use SymmTime
> (thanks to John Navas suggestion) which methinks is quite good.
> <http://www.symmttm.com/download_symmtime_access.asp>
>
>> I'd appreciate any suggestions.
>
> 1. Numbers and accurate details, not prose.
> 2. Describe your hardware and system better.
> 3. If ICS disable or remove it.
> 4. If an idle timer is set, set it to "0" which means forever.

> 5. Verify that your modem, router, and Windoze have the very latest
> version firmware and updates.
They do.

Thanks again for the reply.

ST
>

ST <stjunkie@nntpjunkie.com> hath wroth:

>It's a Netgear RangeMax WPN824 v2

Did you update the firmware on this?
<http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/WPN824v2.asp>
Point your browser to the setup page at:
http://192.168.1.1
and check if the firmware version is 2.0.16 (for USA).

>> While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the operating
>> system running on your computah?
>
>Windows Vista Home on a new Toshiba laptop.

While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the model number
of your Toshiba, along with some clue as to what the other computers
involved are running? It probably doesn't make much difference in
solving this problem, but I prefer to work with complete information.
>No, I didn't use that. I just used the installation instructions
>that came with the router. I used WPA and gave the other users
>the password and all is well except for the noted problems.

That sounds about right. I made a bad guess with ICS. At this point,
I don't know much more about your setup (topology) as when I started.
My basic approach is to reverse engineer the problem and try to
determine what I would do with your hardware to create the problems
mentioned. That's kinda hard to do without numbers. Try hard to
understand that the more numbers you supply, the better answers you'll
get.

>> It would be interesting to know what IP addresses are being used by
>> each computer. If you're running XP, please run:
>> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
>> IPCONFIG
>> and list the IP address and Gateway address for your computer and at
>> least one of the others. That will tell for sure if you're
>> accidentally running ICS.

>Don't know if this is all you need.
>
>IPv4 Address 192.168.1.4(Preferred)
>Default Gateway 192.168.1.1.

That looks correct for your unspecified model Toshiba laptop. However,
in order to determine why the other computers require that your laptop
is connected first, I'll need to know their IP addresses and Gateway
IP's. As before, more numbers please.

>> Your unspecified model broadband modem

> Network Adapter Properties
> Network Adapter Atheros AR5007EG Wireless Network Adapter

That's your wireless adapter chip number inside your unspecified model
Toshiba laptop. Good chipset, incidentally. However, what I wanted
to know is the maker and model number of the box that sits between
your WPN824v4 router, and whatever you use for broadband (cable, DSL,
satellite, ISDN, etc).

>AtomTime Pro v 3.1d

OK. That's not spyware or a problem:
<http://www.atomtime.com> $12

Is it only running this program that allows the others to connect, or
can you run any internet program to initiate a connection? Try
instead something simple like:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
ping www.google.com
to initiate a connection to the internet. If it's an idle timer, as I
suspect, any program that access the internet will work.

>> 5. Verify that your modem, router, and Windoze have the very latest
>> version firmware and updates.
>They do.

Assumption, the mother of all screwups. If I had a dollar for every
time someone claimed their system was up to date, I would be very
wealthy. The most likely culprit is out of date firmware in the
Netgear WPN824v2. If you decide to update the firmware, you might
want to reset the router to defaults to insure that there was no
garbage left from a previous installation. I've also troubleshot a
few of these where someone returned a router to the dealer, and the
new owner didn't bother to reset to defaults, thus inheriting a
misconfigured router.

Also, dive into the status page on the Netgear WPN824v2 and see what
it says for the WAN (internet) IP address. If it's a routeable IP
address, you're fine. If it's something like 192.168.xxx.xxx, then
your unspecified broadband modem is also doing NAT and may be causing
a problem.

Incidentally, this shoulds like a brand new Vista install. Go to the
Windoze Update page and install the optional updates. There are lots
of those that MS considers optional, but which I consider important.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> ST <stjunkie@nntpjunkie.com> hath wroth:
>
>> It's a Netgear RangeMax WPN824 v2
>
> Did you update the firmware on this?
> <http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/WPN824v2.asp>
> Point your browser to the setup page at:
> http://192.168.1.1
> and check if the firmware version is 2.0.16 (for USA).

Yes

>
>>> While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the operating
>>> system running on your computah?
>> Windows Vista Home on a new Toshiba laptop.
>
> While you're at it, could I trouble you to disclose the model number
> of your Toshiba, along with some clue as to what the other computers
> involved are running?

Mine is a P205-S603. Another is a Toshiba A105-S4384. Another is
a high end desktop Windows XP clone.
It probably doesn't make much difference in
> solving this problem, but I prefer to work with complete information.
>> No, I didn't use that. I just used the installation instructions
>> that came with the router. I used WPA and gave the other users
>> the password and all is well except for the noted problems.
>
> That sounds about right. I made a bad guess with ICS. At this point,
> I don't know much more about your setup (topology) as when I started.
> My basic approach is to reverse engineer the problem and try to
> determine what I would do with your hardware to create the problems
> mentioned. That's kinda hard to do without numbers. Try hard to
> understand that the more numbers you supply, the better answers you'll
> get.
>
>>> It would be interesting to know what IP addresses are being used by
>>> each computer. If you're running XP, please run:
>>> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
>>> IPCONFIG
>>> and list the IP address and Gateway address for your computer and at
>>> least one of the others. That will tell for sure if you're
>>> accidentally running ICS.
>
>> Don't know if this is all you need.
>>
>> IPv4 Address 192.168.1.4(Preferred)
>> Default Gateway 192.168.1.1.
>
> That looks correct for your unspecified model Toshiba laptop. However,
> in order to determine why the other computers require that your laptop
> is connected first, I'll need to know their IP addresses and Gateway
> IP's. As before, more numbers please.

Ipconfig doesn't show any additional numbers, but when I log on
to the netgear page it shows other IPs as 192.168.1.2 and 192.168.1.3
>
>>> Your unspecified model broadband modem
>
>> Network Adapter Properties
>> Network Adapter Atheros AR5007EG Wireless Network Adapter
>
> That's your wireless adapter chip number inside your unspecified model
> Toshiba laptop. Good chipset, incidentally. However, what I wanted
> to know is the maker and model number of the box that sits between
> your WPN824v4 router, and whatever you use for broadband (cable, DSL,
> satellite, ISDN, etc).

Actually, there is no other box. I have a cable that runs from my
satellite antenna to a little powered plug-in connector that then plugs
into my Netgear router.
>
>> AtomTime Pro v 3.1d
>
> OK. That's not spyware or a problem:
> <http://www.atomtime.com> $12
>
> Is it only running this program that allows the others to connect, or
> can you run any internet program to initiate a connection?

I can run the clock update program or sometimes an antivirus update,
or on occasion a lotto program update. The clock program connects
9.9 times out of ten-the others are 50-50. The main thing is that
my browsers will not connect when I first boot up, but once the other
programs connect all is well.

Try
> instead something simple like:
> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
> ping www.google.com
> to initiate a connection to the internet. If it's an idle timer, as I
> suspect, any program that access the internet will work.

That is successful now. I'll have to try it when I shut down and boot
up again.
>
>>> 5. Verify that your modem, router, and Windoze have the very latest
>>> version firmware and updates.
>> They do.
>
> Assumption, the mother of all screwups. If I had a dollar for every
> time someone claimed their system was up to date, I would be very
> wealthy. The most likely culprit is out of date firmware in the
> Netgear WPN824v2. If you decide to update the firmware, you might
> want to reset the router to defaults to insure that there was no
> garbage left from a previous installation. I've also troubleshot a
> few of these where someone returned a router to the dealer, and the
> new owner didn't bother to reset to defaults, thus inheriting a
> misconfigured router.

I have the most current firmware. I didn't reset the router however.
>
> Also, dive into the status page on the Netgear WPN824v2 and see what
> it says for the WAN (internet) IP address. If it's a routeable IP
> address, you're fine. If it's something like 192.168.xxx.xxx, then
> your unspecified broadband modem is also doing NAT and may be causing
> a problem.

Sorry, not sure exactly what I need to look for.

I found this: IP Address 192.168.1.1 listed under LAN Port

Under Internet Port I found an actual IP address.
>
> Incidentally, this shoulds like a brand new Vista install.

Well, I got the computer at Christmas and Vista came installed.
Go to the
> Windoze Update page and install the optional updates. There are lots
> of those that MS considers optional, but which I consider important.

I've done that, including the optional ones as well as doing the
upgrades from Toshiba's web site.

Thanks again for your time.

ST

>

ST <stjunkie@nntpjunkie.com> hath wroth:

>Mine is a P205-S603. Another is a Toshiba A105-S4384. Another is
>a high end desktop Windows XP clone.

Your P205-S603 runs Vista. What operating system are the other
computers running?

When you run IPCONFIG on each of these, what do you get for an IP
address and gateway?

>> That looks correct for your unspecified model Toshiba laptop. However,
>> in order to determine why the other computers require that your laptop
>> is connected first, I'll need to know their IP addresses and Gateway
>> IP's. As before, more numbers please.

>Ipconfig doesn't show any additional numbers, but when I log on
>to the netgear page it shows other IPs as 192.168.1.2 and 192.168.1.3

Those probably your other two computers, which is correct. Therefore,
you do not have some kind of weird IP layout problem. Yet another
theory bites the dust.

Frankly, it appears that you're doing everything correctly with your
setup. I have no clue why you would need to run your computer before
the others will connect.

Is there some kind of connection application for an initial connection
to your satellite internet? Something like "click here to connect to
internet"? This is NOT used for HughesNet or WildBlue, but since you
again didn't bother being specific about your satellite provider, I
can't tell if you have one of these or something else.

>Actually, there is no other box. I have a cable that runs from my
>satellite antenna to a little powered plug-in connector that then plugs
>into my Netgear router.

What service service provider? What is at the other end of the
ethernet cable? Both HughesNet and WildBlue provide boxes that are
combination RF modems and routers that are located in your house, not
on the roof.

>I can run the clock update program or sometimes an antivirus update,
>or on occasion a lotto program update. The clock program connects
>9.9 times out of ten-the others are 50-50. The main thing is that
>my browsers will not connect when I first boot up, but once the other
>programs connect all is well.

OK, that makes sense. Any connection to the internet will initiate a
connection. I'm not familiar with SeaMonkey but it should have a
"reload" or "retry connection" button. You may also have it set to
"work offline", which will fail to connect every time until you change
this setting.

> Try
>> instead something simple like:
>> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
>> ping www.google.com
>> to initiate a connection to the internet. If it's an idle timer, as I
>> suspect, any program that access the internet will work.
>
>That is successful now. I'll have to try it when I shut down and boot
>up again.

OK. That means that something is causing the connection to drop when
you are idle. It apparently takes some time for you to connect,
login, authenticate, whatever. This is NOT normal for HughesNet or
WildBlue. You might check with your satellite ISP's forums or user
supported groups if there is some kind of "keep alive" program to help
keep the system up.

>Under Internet Port I found an actual IP address.

Good. That means that the satellite modem is delivering a routeable
IP address and NOT doing NAT. That's will work. So far, I haven't
seen anything unusual or suspicious with your IP layout.

>I've done that, including the optional ones as well as doing the
>upgrades from Toshiba's web site.

OK. That eliminates a few odd potential problems.

Other than the mystery idle timer setting, I can't see anything wrong
with what you've done.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558