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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:52 PM
yawnmoth
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Default curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

i'm considering buying a wireless to wired network bridge (WET54G) and
am not really sure how it'd work. say you're wireless network is
using WEP or WPA. how do you tell the bridge that?

the user guide (page 22) suggests that the WET54G has a web interface
(presumably for this very reason). the default ip address to this web
interface is 192.168.1.226. what happens, however, if your network
configuration uses ip addresses of the form 10.*.*.*? i assume
192.168.1.226 wouldn't work, at that point.

....or what if the ip addresses that are assigned by the router aren't
internal - what if they're directly route-able to the internet? eg.
what if, when i plug two computers into a hub that's plugged into the
WET54G's lone ethernet port, i'm supposed to get two IP addresses that
the outside world can see? 192.168.1.226 obviously wouldn't work,
then...


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2007, 02:24 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

On Mar 31, 9:52 am, "yawnmoth" <terra1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> i'm considering buying a wireless to wired network bridge (WET54G) and
> am not really sure how it'd work. say you're wireless network is
> using WEP or WPA. how do you tell the bridge that?
>
> the user guide (page 22) suggests that the WET54G has a web interface
> (presumably for this very reason).


YES


the default ip address to this web
> interface is 192.168.1.226. what happens, however, if your network
> configuration uses ip addresses of the form 10.*.*.*? i assume
> 192.168.1.226 wouldn't work, at that point.
>


You can change the bridge's address to whatever you want once you are
in the interface.


> ...or what if the ip addresses that are assigned by the router aren't
> internal - what if they're directly route-able to the internet? eg.
> what if, when i plug two computers into a hub that's plugged into the
> WET54G's lone ethernet port, i'm supposed to get two IP addresses that
> the outside world can see? 192.168.1.226 obviously wouldn't work,
> then...


The address of the actual bridge is not the address the attached
computer(s) will use, though it does have to be in the same subnet.
If you don't give them static ip addresses, then they can get their
addresses by DHCP from the central router that the bridge is connected
to.

I don't know if you can actually run two computers through the bridge
or not.

By the way, the cheaper way to do this is to use a router that can be
set to serve as a client. The Buffalo WHR-G54S will do this and sells
for under $50. Many others (Like the Linksys WRT54GL) can also do
this if running aftermarket firmware like DD-WRT.

Items sold exclusively as client bridges cost more and do less.

Steve


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2007, 02:55 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

"yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> hath wroth:

>i'm considering buying a wireless to wired network bridge (WET54G) and
>am not really sure how it'd work. say you're wireless network is
>using WEP or WPA. how do you tell the bridge that?


The absolute basics:
1. ALL wireless is bridging. Wireless knows nothing about IP
addresses and routeing.
2. Basic wireless configuration consists SSID, encryption, and
authentication. Everything else is set by the wireless access point.
The bridge just follows.
3. A wireless client adapter is nothing but a marketing term for
wireless bridge.
4. Bridges can be point to point or point to multipoint depending on
configuration and topology.

>the user guide (page 22) suggests that the WET54G has a web interface
>(presumably for this very reason).


Argh. You read the manual. I'll try to undo the damage.

The IP address for the WET54G is only used to configure the device. It
has no real purpose in the operation of the bridge, which is all done
on Layer 2 (MAC address layer) and not on Layer 3 (IP address layer).

>the default ip address to this web
>interface is 192.168.1.226. what happens, however, if your network
>configuration uses ip addresses of the form 10.*.*.*? i assume
>192.168.1.226 wouldn't work, at that point.


Nothing happens. The IP addresses are handled by the corresponding
wired or wireless router along with the IP stack in the connecting
computah. The bridge does NOTHING with the IP addresses.

>...or what if the ip addresses that are assigned by the router aren't
>internal - what if they're directly route-able to the internet?


Again, the bridge does nothing. Other than the IP address required
for configuration, the wireless bridge acts something like an ordinary
CAT5 cable. It passes IP addresses unchanged. (Actually, that's not
exactly true because a bridge only passes packets that have a
destination MAC address on the other side of the bridge). However, at
the IP address layer, a bridge looks like a cable.

>what if, when i plug two computers into a hub that's plugged into the
>WET54G's lone ethernet port, i'm supposed to get two IP addresses that
>the outside world can see? 192.168.1.226 obviously wouldn't work,
>then...


No. The hub is just a repeater. It doesn't do NAT in any way. If
you need a 2nd IP address on the LAN for a 2nd computah, it will need
to be supplied by a router.

With NAT, the outside world sees exactly one IP address. That's
you're routeable IP addresses and is the one that's reported by
various internet sites the return your IP address:
<http://whatsmyip.org>

One of many features inside your router is NAT (network address
translation). If you happen to be reading Cisco literature, it's
really PAT (port address translation). What NAT/PAT does it rewrite
the IP header on the LAN (local area network) side by port number
giving you multiple IP addresses on the LAN side. These addresses are
assigned by another feature called DHCP (dynamic host confusion
protocol).

Bottom line is that your questions about IP addresses are really
handled by your router and that if you want multiple IP addresses, it
cannot be done with just a wireless bridge or hub.

Reminder: Wireless is all bridging and does NOT involve IP addresses.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2007, 03:19 PM
seaweedsteve
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Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work


> >the user guide (page 22) suggests .....>



> Argh. You read the manual. I'll try to undo the damage.>



Hah! I love it ! Normaly, the reprimand is "RTFM" This is the
alternate reprimand for those who actually did ! Between the two,
all possible questioners are covered.

Cheers,
Steve


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2007, 05:37 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

"seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>
>> >the user guide (page 22) suggests .....>

>
>
>> Argh. You read the manual. I'll try to undo the damage.>

>
>
>Hah! I love it ! Normaly, the reprimand is "RTFM" This is the
>alternate reprimand for those who actually did ! Between the two,
>all possible questioners are covered.


Well, there's a bit of truth to my cynical attitude about manuals.
I'll explain (whether you wanted it explained or not):

1. These daze, manuals are mostly legal disclaimers and wholesale
repudiation of resposibility. They are also incomplete as the most
important information is usually on a sticker plastered over the
connectors or on a "read this first" loose document generally lost
among the packing material.

2. Manuals only contain what to do, not how things work. If the user
would take the time to understand how things work, they wouldn't need
a manual as the proceedure would be fairly obvious. They also only
cover the absolute basics, with many of the obscure settings
remaining... well, obscure.

3. Manuals no longer contains a "Theory of Operation" section. This
section is quite common in the better network device manuals, but is
missing in consumer products.

4. The manual rarely follows the advances and feature additions in
the firmware. It's often that the screenshot of a page does not
resemble the actual page.

5. None of the manuals ever seem to mention that it's a good idea to
check for firmware updates on the manufactory web pile. Those that
do, don't bother to explain how to install the update. Those that
explain how to install the update, don't bother to explain how to
decode the revision numbers. Those that actually include all the
aformentioned, don't bother to explain what to do when the firmware
update goes wrong.

6. The troubleshooting section of most manuals are fairly crude and
border on useless. None bother to suggest the ultimate
troubleshooting proceedure, which it to punch the reset button and
start over from scratch. They also never bother to suggest power
cycleing the router if it seem to be hung or malfunctional.

7. The very simplicity of the manual implies that the device being
configured is also quite simple. This is rarely the case. Ever
notice that the devices with the fewest features have the biggest
manuals?

8. Manuals rarely contain numbers such as the IP address of the
router. This is intentional as the presentation of numbers, forumula,
and RF theory, will cause the users brain to temporarily hang. It is
the prime purpose of tech writers to remove all the numbers and useful
information supplied by the engineers. However, if the manuals were
written by engineers, nobody could understand them, so I guess this is
a tolerable compromise.

9. The addition of foreign language translations has converted the
English into something resembling a foreign language.

10. If there is a "help" section, there's often a question as to whom
it was intended to help. I've suggested that manuals also include a
"beyond help" section, but that has been consistantly vetoes by the
tech writers as bad form and tactless.

11. There seems to be a presumption that if the product were any good,
it wouldn't need a manual. This is largely true but has been
misinterpreted by the manufacturers as the size of the manual
determines the quality of the product, where smaller is better.

12. Manual writers are usually frustrated authors of fiction, who tend
to be creative. This is not a good thing when dealing with technical
terms designed to be specific. Every month, I see a new terms for
common wireless devices.

I could go on and on, but it's Monday morning and the computah is
ringing with yet another dull and inefficient VoIP conference call.
(Hello? I can't hear you, can you hear me? Talk slower. What? Don't
talk when I'm interrupting. Garble-garble. Turn off the video. Can
you hear me now? Ad Nausium)

Reading manuals causes temporary brain damage. Writing manuals seems
to make it permanent.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2007, 07:06 AM
seaweedsteve
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

I agree! I read the manuals just in case there IS some useful
information. There are sometimes gems of actual functional info
buried in the mountains of noise and repetition. But it's usually
all in the "set-up guide" as you say, and often comes down to a
sentence or two that tells me something I actually need to know.

> 12. Manual writers are usually frustrated authors of fiction, who tend
> to be creative. This is not a good thing when dealing with technical
> terms designed to be specific. Every month, I see a new terms for
> common wireless devices.
>
> Reading manuals causes temporary brain damage. Writing manuals seems
> to make it permanent.


Hey! I always thought it was the um, anyway, now I know. I was a
tech writer in Silicon valley for a brief stint in the late 80s. I
liked it, but they weren't consumer products I wrote about. I think
that I got it right explained and organized all the loose knowledge
about that Rolm mark 7600 confabulator into a cohesive document.

But, of course, most people are hacks, don't have enough interest in
what they do...


> I could go on and on, but it's Monday morning and the computah is
> ringing with yet another dull and inefficient VoIP conference call.
> (Hello? I can't hear you, can you hear me? Talk slower. What? Don't
> talk when I'm interrupting. Garble-garble. Turn off the video. Can
> you hear me now? Ad Nausium)



Sounds like VOIP on landlines (vs Satellite) is problematic too. I had
imagined that it would work for normal broadband...

Steve


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: curious about how wireless to wired network bridges work

"seaweedsteve" <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>I agree! I read the manuals just in case there IS some useful
>information. There are sometimes gems of actual functional info
>buried in the mountains of noise and repetition. But it's usually
>all in the "set-up guide" as you say, and often comes down to a
>sentence or two that tells me something I actually need to know.


Yep. I just skim the docs for the numbers, URL's, and startup
incantations to get me started. The rest is usually obvious.

I once wrote a manual for a direction finder for the USCG. One full
page on how to turn it on. Another full page on how to turn it off.
However, the manual turned out quite well because I was being coached
by an experienced tech writer from HP. Among the various lessons, I
learned something that seems to be lacking in most consumer manuals.
If the manual gives instructions for the user to do something, the
manual should also show what the expected result should be. For
example, if one is expected to type in a MAC address, the screen dump
should show a real MAC address and what it should look like.

>Hey! I always thought it was the um, anyway, now I know. I was a
>tech writer in Silicon valley for a brief stint in the late 80s. I
>liked it, but they weren't consumer products I wrote about.


I won't hold that against you. Not the tech writing part, but the
part where you claimed to have enjoyed it. You can always recognize
the experts in any field. They're the ones that do the job perfectly,
and hate every minute of it because they've done it so often and for
so long. Anyone who is still enjoying themselves, just hasn't done it
often enough or long enough to become terminally disgusted and
cynical. Incidentally, that's roughly why I've had 3 professions in
my life and am considering a 4th.

>I think
>that I got it right explained and organized all the loose knowledge
>about that Rolm mark 7600 confabulator into a cohesive document.


Argh. Telco manuals are written in a foreign language. It may
resemble English, but telco policy is to never use any terms found
elsewhere in the electronics industry. That dates back to the daze of
the first AT&T breakup (there will be more breakups as soon as the
Democrats get into power), where the various Baby Bells did not want
to be accused of getting into the computah business. It may look,
act, run, and smell like a computah, but to the telco crowd, it's
called a switch. At the time, it was certain death to anyone that
offered to publish a list of translations. Hopefully, you've
recovered from the experience.

>But, of course, most people are hacks, don't have enough interest in
>what they do...


It varies. I have customers that watch over my shoulder, take notes,
ask good questions, and learn from the experience. I'm a frustrated
instructor, so I tend to give a running commentary on what I'm doing.
I often suspect they are interested because they don't want to pay me
to fix it after they screw it up again, but I prefer to give my
customers the benefit of the doubt. However, for most people, you're
correct. They just want to plug and play without the learning
experience. "Why can't this stuff be easier?" is the most common
exhibition of frustration. I have various stock answers, but I never
shove it in their face by mentioning that they don't spend the time to
learn anything about their computers. Many of my customers entire
business operations are based on the functioning of their computers,
yet they treat them like it was some manner of fashion accessory. I
don't complain, because they pay me, but an adjustment of priorities
might be in order.

>> I could go on and on, but it's Monday morning and the computah is
>> ringing with yet another dull and inefficient VoIP conference call.
>> (Hello? I can't hear you, can you hear me? Talk slower. What? Don't
>> talk when I'm interrupting. Garble-garble. Turn off the video. Can
>> you hear me now? Ad Nausium)

>
>Sounds like VOIP on landlines (vs Satellite) is problematic too. I had
>imagined that it would work for normal broadband...


You're assuming that this was with a dedicated broadband connection,
and not an office corporate LAN. The problem is never the computer or
even the ISP. It's the local constipation and bottleneck caused by
what the user or his accomplices across the office are doing at the
time he's trying to make a VoIP phone call. I have QoS setup to give
priority to G.711 and G.729 traffic on my systems. Many routers do
not. The result is that someone on the same WLAN connection watching
YouTube videos at the same time as the VoIP call will trash the call.
Even the VoIP users are clueless and will be doing something else that
will slow their computer down. For example, one person was having
nothing but trouble with the 9AM conference call, but would be fine at
any other time. When I rescheduled her computahs virus scan for some
other time, call quality dramatically improved.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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