Farm scale network links: advice

[This post was originally made to uk.comp.os.linux and
uk.comp.home-networking, as I had not had a pointer to the existence of
this group; please excuse multi-posting]

Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.

The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side of
the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side. The
buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land extending about
250-300 metres in every direction.

I'm thinking that an omnidirectional wifi aerial on the top of the
buildings should cover most of the east side of the ridge, but I don't
know how much power I need to get 300 metres effective range on an
omnidirectional. To get to a useful place to put a mast on the west
side of the ridge, I'm going to need either to run 200 metres of some
kind of cable, or to have a repeater station on the top of the ridge
that I would need to run power to (or possibly have solar panel and/or
small wind turbine).

Sticking an omnidirectional aerial on the top of the ridge is not
likely to work since the ridge is too steep, and the signal would be
above the level of the rest of the farm. Also, wind speeds over the
ridge can be very high indeed. It might be possible to put two slightly
tilted omni aerials on top of the ridge, one to 'light' the east side,
one to 'light' the west, but finding a place where that would work
effectively would be tricky given the land shapes.

I could run either cat 5 or fibre optic cable along the existing
fence line; I know this doesn't give much protection from mechanical
damage but it would work in the short term. Going along the
fence lines means I'm going to need to go about 250 metres, possibly as
much as 300. Cat 5 probably isn't going to go the distance - the
longest distance I can find for a reliable 10base100 link on cat 5 is
177 yards, so I probably have to go for fibre, which is something I've
never installed before.

So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort of
tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably priced
media converters off ebay (e.g. http://goo.gl/MfD3L ) but will these do
what I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300
metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed,
amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?

I'm in the UK, if that makes a difference to your answer.

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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On Jan 11, 2:39*pm, Simon Brooke <stillyet+n...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> [This post was originally made to uk.comp.os.linux and
> uk.comp.home-networking, as I had not had a pointer to the existence of
> this group; please excuse multi-posting]
>
> Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.
>
> The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side of
> the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side. The
> buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land extending about
> 250-300 metres in every direction.
>
> I'm thinking that an omnidirectional wifi aerial on the top of the
> buildings should cover most of the east side of the ridge, but I don't
> know how much power I need to get 300 metres effective range on an
> omnidirectional. To get to a useful place to put a mast on the west
> side of the ridge, I'm going to need either to run 200 metres of some
> kind of cable, or to have a repeater station on the top of the ridge
> that I would need to run power to (or possibly have solar panel and/or
> small wind turbine).
>
> Sticking an omnidirectional aerial on the top of the ridge is not
> likely to work since the ridge is too steep, and the signal would be
> above the level of the rest of the farm. Also, wind speeds over the
> ridge can be very high indeed. It might be possible to put two slightly
> tilted omni aerials on top of the ridge, one to 'light' the east side,
> one to 'light' the west, but finding a place where that would work
> effectively would be tricky given the land shapes.
>
> I could run either cat 5 or fibre optic cable along the existing
> fence line; I know this doesn't give much protection from mechanical
> damage but it would work in the short term. Going along the
> fence lines means I'm going to need to go about 250 metres, possibly as
> much as 300. Cat 5 probably isn't going to go the distance - the
> longest distance I can find for a reliable 10base100 link on cat 5 is
> 177 yards, so I probably have to go for fibre, which is something I've
> never installed before.
>
> So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort of
> tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably priced
> media converters off ebay (e.g.http://goo.gl/MfD3L) but will these do
> what I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300
> metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed,
> amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?
>
> I'm in the UK, if that makes a difference to your answer.

I have recently read very bad reports using normal cat5
outdoors (badly affected by water?). And thats BEFORE
worrying about lightening and ground potential differences.
A place I worked had hundreds of cat5 cables replaced
after a vending machine leaked on to them. It was cleared
up in a few hours but "the people who know" said they
all had to be replaced even though they seemed to work OK.
It was likely an insured loss.

I can perhaps help a wee bit with the FO.

There are three kinds of fibre and they all look the same.
you need to read the numbers on the side to distinguish
them. The colour means NOTHING AT ALL.

65/125 - Multi mode
50/125 - Multi mode
8/125 - Single Mode
can be 8, 8.5 or 9, amounts to the same thing.

MM is MUCH cheaper to implement buying new
but I bet there is NO demand for SM kit on ebay:-)
Fiber seems to be about the same in both cases.

At 100Mbps or less MM can go 2km.
At Gigabit, MM is restricted further. It is complex and
depends on the exact fibre characteristics but can be
as low as 220m but if you choose the correct fibre can
be 500m.

SM distance can be large - 100km or more but that
distance does require more expensive kit.

SM can require power attenuators at short distances
but I think that modern kit more or less eliminates that.

All your fiber must be the same type (65, 50, 8) for any run.
Your senders and receivers must match both each other and
the fibre too. MM or SM.

Beware of non-standards' transceivers unless you
buy matched pairs.

Termination used to be (1995) professional only. Needed to
test each fibre with complex kit (TDR). May not be like that now.

You can buy pre-terminated runs of any length. You can join
with "barrel" connectors but not too many.

There are several (ok maybe many:-) different types of
end connector used.

SC, FC/PC, ST, more I forget.

Pre-Terminated
http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/s...62&length=1012

100m - £114


Armoured unterminated
http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/s...ose-tube-cable.
Check water resistance of cable selected.

ALWAYS lay more strands than you need if putting in a
multi-core cable.

ALWAYS leave a spare loop at the ends so that you
can re-terminate if required.

Be aware of bend radius limitations (min).

I have never used universalnetworks.co.uk, they just have a
convenient web site for checking fibre prices.

If you go SM get some spare transceivers if they present
themselves since new ones are (well were last time I looked)
quite costly.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 07:49:23 -0800 (PST)
bod43 <Bod43@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> On Jan 11, 2:39*pm, Simon Brooke <stillyet+n...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > [This post was originally made to uk.comp.os.linux and
> > uk.comp.home-networking, as I had not had a pointer to the
> > existence of this group; please excuse multi-posting]
> >
> > Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.

[Snip]

> I can perhaps help a wee bit with the FO.

[Snip]

Many thanks, that all looks most helpful!

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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"Simon Brooke" <stillyet+nntp@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:20110111143918.649e8e1d@gododdin...

Your post come through blank. How about not using formatted text and/or
attachments?

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), bod43 <Bod43@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Jan 11, 2:39*pm, Simon Brooke <stillyet+n...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> [This post was originally made to uk.comp.os.linux and
>> uk.comp.home-networking, as I had not had a pointer to the existence of
>> this group; please excuse multi-posting]
>>
>> Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.
>>
>> The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side of
>> the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side. The
>> buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land extending about
>> 250-300 metres in every direction.
>>
300 m on the access point seems optimistic - it doesnt just have to
transmit but also recieve the signal from your portable devices.

>> I'm thinking that an omnidirectional wifi aerial on the top of the
>> buildings should cover most of the east side of the ridge, but I don't
>> know how much power I need to get 300 metres effective range on an
>> omnidirectional. To get to a useful place to put a mast on the west
>> side of the ridge, I'm going to need either to run 200 metres of some
>> kind of cable, or to have a repeater station on the top of the ridge
>> that I would need to run power to (or possibly have solar panel and/or
>> small wind turbine).
>>
>> Sticking an omnidirectional aerial on the top of the ridge is not
>> likely to work since the ridge is too steep, and the signal would be
>> above the level of the rest of the farm. Also, wind speeds over the
>> ridge can be very high indeed. It might be possible to put two slightly
>> tilted omni aerials on top of the ridge, one to 'light' the east side,
>> one to 'light' the west, but finding a place where that would work
>> effectively would be tricky given the land shapes.

Golden rule of wireless is test it before you commit. If you want to
do this then get some flexible wireless gear, temp mount it where you
want it, and then roam around with laptop etc and see what coverage
you get.

you can get weatherproof access points built into a patch panel
antenna / case - that will give you some antenna gain, and let you
"point" mulitple access points where you need signal.

Given the recent weather you want to operate at well below 0 C, and up
to maybe 50 C+ unless it is in the shade in summer.

Only seen these as "enterprise" kit though
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...ers_guide.html

cisco example only - plenty of other makes, but i havent done the
outdoor stuff in anger for several years.

>>
>> I could run either cat 5 or fibre optic cable along the existing
>> fence line; I know this doesn't give much protection from mechanical
>> damage but it would work in the short term.

Agree with fibre if you want it to survive. You can get direct burial
/ armoured Cat5.....

Although if you get a local lightning strike on a farm your
electronics are likely to get scrapped anyway, unless the power and
earthing are good.

dont forget you want weather proof cable versions if it isnt armoured
- some pre terminated fibre is intended for indoor use.

if you can keep the UTP run distances down to 100m or so then with the
right AP you will be able to use power over Ethernet to run the AP
where you dont have local mains.

Going along the
>> fence lines means I'm going to need to go about 250 metres, possibly as
>> much as 300. Cat 5 probably isn't going to go the distance - the
>> longest distance I can find for a reliable 10base100 link on cat 5 is
>> 177 yards, so I probably have to go for fibre, which is something I've
>> never installed before.
>>
>> So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort of
>> tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably priced
>> media converters off ebay (e.g.http://goo.gl/MfD3L) but will these do
>> what I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300
>> metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed,
>> amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?
>>
A farm may well have metal or stone wall buildings - both block
wireless pretty well.....

So if you have buildings scattered around you want access in, you may
be better off with more, cheaper wireless boxes (or even a
combination).

given the price of consumer routers to use indoors, maybe if you use
some that let you set them up as access points and put in the various
buildings, then link the building via fibre or power line networking?

>> I'm in the UK, if that makes a difference to your answer.
>
So lots of rain :)

>I have recently read very bad reports using normal cat5
>outdoors (badly affected by water?). And thats BEFORE
>worrying about lightening and ground potential differences.
>A place I worked had hundreds of cat5 cables replaced
>after a vending machine leaked on to them. It was cleared
>up in a few hours but "the people who know" said they
>all had to be replaced even though they seemed to work OK.
>It was likely an insured loss.
>
>I can perhaps help a wee bit with the FO.
>
>There are three kinds of fibre and they all look the same.
>you need to read the numbers on the side to distinguish
>them. The colour means NOTHING AT ALL.
>
>65/125 - Multi mode
>50/125 - Multi mode
>8/125 - Single Mode
>can be 8, 8.5 or 9, amounts to the same thing.
>
>MM is MUCH cheaper to implement buying new
>but I bet there is NO demand for SM kit on ebay:-)
>Fiber seems to be about the same in both cases.
>
>At 100Mbps or less MM can go 2km.
>At Gigabit, MM is restricted further. It is complex and
>depends on the exact fibre characteristics but can be
>as low as 220m but if you choose the correct fibre can
>be 500m.
>
>SM distance can be large - 100km or more but that
>distance does require more expensive kit.
>
>SM can require power attenuators at short distances
>but I think that modern kit more or less eliminates that.
>
>All your fiber must be the same type (65, 50, 8) for any run.
>Your senders and receivers must match both each other and
>the fibre too. MM or SM.
>
>Beware of non-standards' transceivers unless you
>buy matched pairs.
>
>Termination used to be (1995) professional only. Needed to
>test each fibre with complex kit (TDR). May not be like that now.
>
>You can buy pre-terminated runs of any length. You can join
>with "barrel" connectors but not too many.
>
>There are several (ok maybe many:-) different types of
>end connector used.
>
>SC, FC/PC, ST, more I forget.
>
>Pre-Terminated
>http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/s...62&length=1012
>
>100m - £114
>
>
>Armoured unterminated
>http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/s...ose-tube-cable.
>Check water resistance of cable selected.
>
>ALWAYS lay more strands than you need if putting in a
>multi-core cable.
>
>ALWAYS leave a spare loop at the ends so that you
>can re-terminate if required.
>
>Be aware of bend radius limitations (min).
>
>I have never used universalnetworks.co.uk, they just have a
>convenient web site for checking fibre prices.
>
>If you go SM get some spare transceivers if they present
>themselves since new ones are (well were last time I looked)
>quite costly.
--
Regards

stephen_hope@xyzworld.com - replace xyz with ntl

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:11:54 +0000
Stephen <stephen_hope@xyzworld.com> wrote:

> Although if you get a local lightning strike on a farm your
> electronics are likely to get scrapped anyway, unless the power and
> earthing are good.
>
> dont forget you want weather proof cable versions if it isnt armoured
> - some pre terminated fibre is intended for indoor use.
>
> if you can keep the UTP run distances down to 100m or so then with the
> right AP you will be able to use power over Ethernet to run the AP
> where you dont have local mains.

Thanks, that's a particularly useful thought which I had not come up
with; it makes locating more wireless access points much easier.

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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"Simon Brooke" <stillyet+nntp@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:20110111192515.625a6581@gododdin...

why do your postings come across as "attachments" ?
two files - one .ASC and one .TXT (which is the actual text)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 14:39:18 +0000, Simon Brooke wrote:

> what sort of fibre do I buy,

Wheat Chex
--
zakAT@pooh.the.cat - Sergeant Tech-Com, DN38416.
Assigned to protect you. You've been targeted for denigration!

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.internet.wireless, in article
<b74f7039-2bef-4629-a25b-0c28bdc8d8b2@n10g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, bod43
wrote:

NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

>I have recently read very bad reports using normal cat5
>outdoors (badly affected by water?).

Depends what you call "normal cat5" cable. The jacket material is often
a PVC or Teflon/FEP which in undamaged condition should be relatively
watertight. If water does get in, it may wick in some distance from
the entry point, and this screws up the characteristic impedance and
can cause degradation of the signal. Once water (or other fluids) get
in the cable, it's virtually impossible to get the stuff out. PVC
doesn't have the physical and solar reliability of polyethylene which
is more commonly used outdoors.

>And thats BEFORE worrying about lightening and ground potential
>differences.

which is a real problem.

>A place I worked had hundreds of cat5 cables replaced after a vending
>machine leaked on to them. It was cleared up in a few hours but "the
>people who know" said they all had to be replaced even though they
>seemed to work OK. It was likely an insured loss.

I suppose it depends on what it was that leaked out. Some of the stuff
that is sold out of vending machines is pretty lethal - especially the
so-called "soup". ;-)

>ALWAYS lay more strands than you need if putting in a multi-core cable.

This is true whether you are putting in telephone wire, video grade
cable or fiber. The extra strands are dirt cheap compared to the cost
of installing them (ESPECIALLY if trenching), never mind the fact that
Murphy's Law virtually guarantees that 1) you'll need the extras, and
2) when you try to install the extra, you'll damage the original stuff.
If trenching the stuff, or routing it where it can be physically
damaged, it's often a good idea to put it in pipe/conduit (non-metallic
if outdoors), and two additional points then apply - 1) larger sized
pipe/conduit than needed (so you can pull in extra cables using the
fish tapes/ropes that you also install at the same time) and 2) take
lots of photographs that show where the stuff is being buried (including
such landmarks that will allow you to find things next time you need to
dig/work within a hundred meters of what you hid).

>ALWAYS leave a spare loop at the ends so that you can re-terminate if
>required.

s/if/when/

Old guy

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:51:52 +0000, Simon Brooke wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:11:54 +0000
> Stephen <stephen_hope@xyzworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Although if you get a local lightning strike on a farm your
>> electronics are likely to get scrapped anyway, unless the power and
>> earthing are good.
>>
>> dont forget you want weather proof cable versions if it isnt armoured
>> - some pre terminated fibre is intended for indoor use.
>>
>> if you can keep the UTP run distances down to 100m or so then with the
>> right AP you will be able to use power over Ethernet to run the AP
>> where you dont have local mains.
>
> Thanks, that's a particularly useful thought which I had not come up
> with; it makes locating more wireless access points much easier.

correct