linking 2 wireless routers

i have just bought a wireless belkin adsl router. I have plugged this
in and can access the internet wirelessly fine. However the coverage
does not extend throughout the house. I have a Linksys wireless router
that I want to use to extend the range. I have turned off dhcp on the
linksys and configured it as a gateay rather than router. I have set
both routers to use the same ssid and the same channel. However these
routers do not seem to be talking to each other. If I run a cable from
the lan port of the belkin to the lan port of the linksys it works
fine, the linksys acts as a switch as it should but it won't do this
wirelessly. Is there any reason, am i missing something stupid?
I have used the linksys as a wireless switch before - I enabled
internet connection sharing on the desktop attached to a usb wireless
dongle. The linksys box was happy then to broadcast the network across
the house, it just won't seem to talk with the belkin.

Thanks for any help

Neal

On 16 Oct 2005 14:58:59 -0700, neal.atkinson@gmail.com wrote:

>i have just bought a wireless belkin adsl router. I have plugged this
>in and can access the internet wirelessly fine. However the coverage
>does not extend throughout the house. I have a Linksys wireless router
>that I want to use to extend the range. I have turned off dhcp on the
>linksys and configured it as a gateay rather than router. I have set
>both routers to use the same ssid and the same channel. However these
>routers do not seem to be talking to each other. If I run a cable from
>the lan port of the belkin to the lan port of the linksys it works
>fine, the linksys acts as a switch as it should but it won't do this
>wirelessly. Is there any reason, am i missing something stupid?

Yes. You're missing the model numbers of your two Belkins and your
Linksys. Last time I checked, both Belkin and Linksys make more than
one model of wireless router.

>I have used the linksys as a wireless switch before - I enabled
>internet connection sharing on the desktop attached to a usb wireless
>dongle. The linksys box was happy then to broadcast the network across
>the house, it just won't seem to talk with the belkin.

If you're trying to use the Linksys as a repeater, you'll probably
need to impliment WDS (wireless distribution something) assuming your
Belkin and Linksys boxes support this feature. Otherwise, you had it
basically correct. To convert the Linksys into an acces point:
1. Run a cable between the LAN ports.
2. Disable the DHCP server in the Linksys.
3. Use the same SSID but pick a different channel to avoid
interference (1, 6, 11).
4. Don't set the Linksys to gateway. Leave it at the default which
is "router" as it makes no difference in the operation as an access
point.
5. Don't plug anything into the WAN port on the Linksys.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

thank you for the response

> Yes. You're missing the model numbers of your two Belkins and your
> Linksys. Last time I checked, both Belkin and Linksys make more than
> one model of wireless router.

Belkin: F5D7632-4

Linksys: wrt56g


> To convert the Linksys into an acces point:
> 1. Run a cable between the LAN ports.
> 2. Disable the DHCP server in the Linksys.
> 3. Use the same SSID but pick a different channel to avoid
> interference (1, 6, 11).
> 4. Don't set the Linksys to gateway. Leave it at the default which
> is "router" as it makes no difference in the operation as an access
> point.
> 5. Don't plug anything into the WAN port on the Linksys.

1. I can't use cables to connect the boxes. as they are on different
floors. It works running cables between them, but i want to the linksys
to be a wireless repeater not a wired repeater
2. done
3. tried different channels, both boxes using same ssid
4. tried it both router and gateway
5. nothing plugged in there

I am just trying to get the linksys to be non-wired repeater. It seemed
to perform this function fine when using ICS and a usb wireless dongle,
i'm not sure what i'm missing or doing wrong to get it to work now.

rgds

Neal

Sorry, the linksys is model:

wrt54g

On 16 Oct 2005 19:01:55 -0700, neal.atkinson@gmail.com wrote:

>thank you for the response
>
>> Yes. You're missing the model numbers of your two Belkins and your
>> Linksys. Last time I checked, both Belkin and Linksys make more than
>> one model of wireless router.
>
>Belkin: F5D7632-4
>
>Linksys: wrt56g

WRT54G

>> To convert the Linksys into an acces point:
>> 1. Run a cable between the LAN ports.
>> 2. Disable the DHCP server in the Linksys.
>> 3. Use the same SSID but pick a different channel to avoid
>> interference (1, 6, 11).
>> 4. Don't set the Linksys to gateway. Leave it at the default which
>> is "router" as it makes no difference in the operation as an access
>> point.
>> 5. Don't plug anything into the WAN port on the Linksys.

>1. I can't use cables to connect the boxes. as they are on different
>floors.

Drill the hole. Anyone with a long drill and a bit of construction
expertise can do the job unless your floor is made of concrete.

>It works running cables between them, but i want to the linksys
>to be a wireless repeater not a wired repeater

The Linksys WRT54G can play WDS repeater with alternative firmware
such as Sveasoft Alchemy or DD-WRT. However, the F5D7632-4 data sheet
shows no indication that it supports WDS, so that will not work. As
near as I can tell, the WRT54G replacment firmware only support a WDS
repeater so there's no other repeater mode available. Sorry, won't
work.

>2. done
>3. tried different channels, both boxes using same ssid
>4. tried it both router and gateway
>5. nothing plugged in there

You only do the above if you want to use the WRT54G as a wireless
access point. You apparently want to build a repeater. They're quite
different.

>I am just trying to get the linksys to be non-wired repeater.

Yeah, now you mention this not so minor detail. In future questions,
kindly disclose what you are trying to accomplish before supplying all
the details of where you're stuck. It's really helpful to know what
you're trying to do.

>It seemed
>to perform this function fine when using ICS and a usb wireless dongle,
>i'm not sure what i'm missing or doing wrong to get it to work now.

I don't believe it. There's no repeater mode in the WRT54G other than
WDS and the required support for WDS just isn't there.

--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
831.336.2558 voice
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann
jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us jeffl@cruzio.com

> >I am just trying to get the linksys to be non-wired repeater.
>
> Yeah, now you mention this not so minor detail. In future questions,
> kindly disclose what you are trying to accomplish before supplying all
> the details of where you're stuck. It's really helpful to know what
> you're trying to do.
>

i made i quite clear in the first post what i wanted to do, extend the
range of my wireless network by whatever wireless methods were
available.


> >It seemed
> >to perform this function fine when using ICS and a usb wireless dongle,
> >i'm not sure what i'm missing or doing wrong to get it to work now.
>
> I don't believe it. There's no repeater mode in the WRT54G other than
> WDS and the required support for WDS just isn't there.

my connection, which i already described, was as follows:

pc with ICS & wireless adaptor-->wrt54g standard firmware with dhcp
disabled--->wireless laptops

The wrt54g acted as an access point/repeater whatever and broadcast the
connection. I wrongly assumed that as the wrt54g natively broadcast the
signal from a wireless adaptor it would do the same from a wireless
router.

I want a setup like:

pc with wireless>--<adsl wireless router>---<non wired
wrt54g>---<wireless laptops

the belkin router has gone back as it doesn't support wds, am now on
the lookout for adsl modem/router with wds.

Thanks for your time and your sarcasm

On 19 Oct 2005 06:02:18 -0700, neal.atkinson@gmail.com wrote:


>I want a setup like:
>
>pc with wireless>--<adsl wireless router>---<non wired
>wrt54g>---<wireless laptops

That's a bit like what I have here ..

PC(s)? (wired though>---<cable wireless router> ... <Asus WL-300g>
--<Wired PC (and / or wireless lasptop).
>
>the belkin router has gone back as it doesn't support wds,

My Belkin F5D7230-4 might support WDS as it says:

"Wireless Bridging or Wireless Distribution System (WDS) is used to
connect Wireless Routers and Access points together to extend a
network" ?

I just wanted to 'extend' my network down into a workshop that has
steel doors (blocking most RF at that level). A solution that seems
the most 'robust' is to have some form of wireless networking device
up behind the wooden gabel end of the workshop 'looking' at something
compatible sitting on an upstairs windowsill in a room facing the
workshop.

In spite of suggestions from Belkin that 'only Belkin devices can
bridge to a Belkin router' and from Asus that it won';t support WPA in
'bridging' mode I have it working here?

For test purposes I have it all set up at the house end and with the
laptop, hard wired to the Asus, can (very quickly) browse the web ..
and when I change the WPA code in the Asus to an incorrect one I don't
get connection, DHCP nor web access etc (suggesting to me anyway that
WPA is doing 'something') ?

Oh well ..

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. Don't read too much into the wording of some replies .. I'm sure
the spirit was well intentioned .. ;-)

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <1129726938.446519.188490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups .com> on 19 Oct 2005
06:02:18 -0700, neal.atkinson@gmail.com wrote:

>> >I am just trying to get the linksys to be non-wired repeater.
>>
>> Yeah, now you mention this not so minor detail. In future questions,
>> kindly disclose what you are trying to accomplish before supplying all
>> the details of where you're stuck. It's really helpful to know what
>> you're trying to do.
>
>i made i quite clear in the first post what i wanted to do, extend the
>range of my wireless network by whatever wireless methods were
>available.

With all due respect, it wasn't at all clear what you were trying to do, what
units you had, and what you had tried. Worse, some of your information has
been inaccurate, which leads to unnecessary confusion.

>my connection, which i already described, was as follows:
>
>pc with ICS & wireless adaptor-->wrt54g standard firmware with dhcp
>disabled--->wireless laptops
>
>The wrt54g acted as an access point/repeater whatever and broadcast the
>connection. I wrongly assumed that as the wrt54g natively broadcast the
>signal from a wireless adaptor it would do the same from a wireless
>router.
>
>I want a setup like:
>
>pc with wireless>--<adsl wireless router>---<non wired
>wrt54g>---<wireless laptops
>
>the belkin router has gone back as it doesn't support wds, am now on
>the lookout for adsl modem/router with wds.

See "HOWTO: Use Linksys WRT54G as a wireless ethernet bridge"
<http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=36&threadid=1513386&frmKeyw ord=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear>

[SNIP]

So in summary, you don't need two wrt54g routers, nor do you need WDS
capable routers. A single wrt54g (with the right firmware) can
operate as a "client" of any other wireless router, and create a
bridge so any device connected to it will be able to access your
network and the internet. The above works great for me, even with 3-4
PCs attached to the wrt54g (verified that it works).

Is that what you want?

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:29:05 GMT, T i m <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>My Belkin F5D7230-4 might support WDS as it says:
>
>"Wireless Bridging or Wireless Distribution System (WDS) is used to
>connect Wireless Routers and Access points together to extend a
>network" ?

Different model. For your F5D7230-4 and F5D7130 models see:
http://web.belkin.com/support/downlo...s%20Bridge.pdf
for instructions. One problem is that Belkin doesn't seem to be very
consistent in their nomenclature. Sometimes it's WDS but in the above
instructions, it's called a "Wireless Bridge" with zero mention of
WDS. While "wireless bridge" is somewhat correct, it's also correct
for *ALL* types of 802.11a/b/g wireless as they all use bridging. I
can see why you say "might".

>In spite of suggestions from Belkin that 'only Belkin devices can
>bridge to a Belkin router' and from Asus that it won';t support WPA in
>'bridging' mode I have it working here?

In general, the chipset used in the device has to be the same. Just
for fun, I tried to convince a DI-624 Atheros based wireless router to
play WDS with a WRT54G Broadcom based wireless router (using Sveasoft
Alchemy firmware). About 30 minutes (and 15 interruptions) later, it
wasn't working, so I gave up. My plan was to sniff and capture the
traffic with Ethereal for later analysis, but I ran out of time.

>For test purposes I have it all set up at the house end and with the
>laptop, hard wired to the Asus, can (very quickly) browse the web ..
>and when I change the WPA code in the Asus to an incorrect one I don't
>get connection, DHCP nor web access etc (suggesting to me anyway that
>WPA is doing 'something') ?

Yep. That's a good way of testing WPA and WDS. There are several
devices that claim that WPA and WDS are mutually incompatible. This
is pure baloney intended to cover up firmware programming issues.
There is no relationship to between WPA and WDS. WPA is an encryption
method intended to solve the key exchange problems in WEP encryption.
WDS is a store and forward repeater standard. I doubt if the routines
intersect anywhere. However, there is the possibility that there was
insufficient room (or time) to properly implement both WPA and WDS in
the limited memory space in firmware, which might explain (or excuse)
the interaction. The not so obvious detail that there are devices now
available that successfully function with simultaneous WPA and WDS
should demonstrate that it would be possible.

>p.s. Don't read too much into the wording of some replies .. I'm sure
>the spirit was well intentioned .. ;-)

Naw. I'm basically evil and consider it my purpose in life to spend
at least one hour every day, for at least the last year, insulting
anyone and everyone that asks technical questions in this newsgroup. I
also am trying to impress them by burying them in technical detail and
explanations. The huge amount of money I've received for doing all
this ($19), and my collection of hate mail, is my reward. It's a
tough job, but someone has to do it.

Actually, in this case, something else was going on. On Sunday, I
apparently was bitten by something that resulted in a rather severe
allergic reaction. This also happened last year so I knew the
symptoms well. I caught it in time with a large dose of Benzadril
(anti-histamine) but wasn't feeling too good for the following 2 days.
I was doing a great impersonation of the walking dead during this
time, but that didn't stop me from reading this newsgroup and posting
my daily does of arrogant and insulting messages. My spelling checker
got a workout and I won't pretend that I was totally coherent. Being
able to perform my daily insults made me feel somewhat normal, so I
guess it's justified.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 19 Oct 2005 06:02:18 -0700, neal.atkinson@gmail.com wrote:

>i made i quite clear in the first post what i wanted to do, extend the
>range of my wireless network by whatever wireless methods were
>available.

Sorry but that wasn't very clear. I answer quite a few questions and
often find that when I ask "What problem are you trying to solve", I
instead get the answer to "Where are you stuck" instead. This is what
you did. You assumed that your arrangement should work as some type
of wireless range extender or repeater and defined your problem around
that assumption.

To answer *ANY* question, one needs to disclose:
1. What are you trying to accomplish?
2. What do you have to work with? (Hardware, equipment, models,
software, versions, topography, line of sight, NUMBERS, etc).
3. What have you done so far and what happened? (error messages).

Don't feel that I'm picking on you personally. Most of the questions
I try to answer are lacking in the aforementioned requirements. There
are also language and buzzword problems. It's understandable because
I don't expect everyone to be an expert in the terminology or
technology. If English is a 2nd or 3rd language, there may be grammar
problems.

>my connection, which i already described, was as follows:
>
>pc with ICS & wireless adaptor-->wrt54g standard firmware with dhcp
>disabled--->wireless laptops

Really? Read your previous two postings and show me where ICS is
listed, where you mentioned the USB adapter, where you supplied the
correct model number for the WRT54G, and where you distinguished
between a wireless and a wired connection. It's possible that this
information may be encoded somewhere in your descriptions, but I
assure you that it was not obvious.

>The wrt54g acted as an access point/repeater whatever and broadcast the
>connection. I wrongly assumed that as the wrt54g natively broadcast the
>signal from a wireless adaptor it would do the same from a wireless
>router.
>
>I want a setup like:
>
>pc with wireless>--<adsl wireless router>---<non wired
>wrt54g>---<wireless laptops

May I suggest you separate the ADSL modem from the wireless router. I
usually recommend 3 different boxes. There are lots of advantages to
this approach in the area of installation flexibility. For example,
if you switch later to a cable modem setup, you don't throw everything
away. If the latest improvement in wireless (802.11n) appears, you
only replace the wireless (access point) part. If you need the
ultimate in routing or VPN termination, then you replace just the
router part with a Cisco router. However, in your case, the real
advantage will be that separating the wireless from the router allows
you to quite a bit of versatility in positioning the wireless access
point. It no longer necessary to either add an external antenna with
its lossy coax to get a better signal, or drag a mess of cables with
the box to improve its location. Yeah, it's more expensive, but
methinks worth the exercise.

Since you already own the WRT54G, methinks the best and cheapest
solution is to purchase another WRT54G and use WDS as a repeater. I
personally would run the CAT5 cable, but you're aware of that option
and have rejected it. Be careful which hardware version of the WRT54G
you purchase. The V4 and V5 versions of the WRT54 are currently only
supported by DD-WRT and Talisman 1.1 firmware. Try to find a WRT54v3
or earlier. The WRT54GS hardware versions do NOT track the
corresponding WRT54G version numbers. The latest WRT54G and GS v5
runs VxWorks and not Linux, and is therefore useless for firmware
transplants. The rumor mill also indicates that as a totally new
firmware build, it has some nasty problems.

http://www.linksysinfo.org/modules.p...ewtopic&t=9209

>the belkin router has gone back as it doesn't support wds, am now on
>the lookout for adsl modem/router with wds.

Good idea. Again, I suggest you purchase separate boxes. Please note
that you can always buy a wireless router and use it as just an access
point (no router section).

>Thanks for your time and your sarcasm

Y're welcome. I spent about an hour writing this reply and another in
this thread. How much time did you spend formulating your question?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:29:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:

> While "wireless bridge" is somewhat correct, it's also correct
>for *ALL* types of 802.11a/b/g wireless as they all use bridging. I
>can see why you say "might".

I've been in IT support for too long to say anything else Jeff! ;-)
>
>>In spite of suggestions from Belkin that 'only Belkin devices can
>>bridge to a Belkin router' and from Asus that it won';t support WPA in
>>'bridging' mode I have it working here?
>
>In general, the chipset used in the device has to be the same.

So can we assume this to be the case between this Belkin and the Asus?
I clearly remember seeing 'Broadcom' as the SSID with Netstumbler
after doing a firmware update on the Asus and before it returned to
'default' or whatever after a power cycle?
>
>>For test purposes I have it all set up at the house end and with the
>>laptop, hard wired to the Asus, can (very quickly) browse the web ..
>>and when I change the WPA code in the Asus to an incorrect one I don't
>>get connection, DHCP nor web access etc (suggesting to me anyway that
>>WPA is doing 'something') ?
>
>Yep. That's a good way of testing WPA and WDS.

Whythankyou ;-)

> There are several
>devices that claim that WPA and WDS are mutually incompatible.

And people that claim the concept is the same?

This
>is pure baloney intended to cover up firmware programming issues.

Never heard that anywhere before have we ... <sigh>

>There is no relationship to between WPA and WDS.

That's what I thought and hence why I have been fishing for some facts
...

WPA is an encryption
>method intended to solve the key exchange problems in WEP encryption.

Understood ..

>WDS is a store and forward repeater standard.

Ok ..

I doubt if the routines
>intersect anywhere.

The only thing I thought it could be was if there was a conflict in
the linkup handshake .. chicken <> egg sorta thing?

However, there is the possibility that there was
>insufficient room (or time) to properly implement both WPA and WDS in
>the limited memory space in firmware, which might explain (or excuse)
>the interaction.

Heard that before as well ... "future enhancements" ..? ;-(

The not so obvious detail that there are devices now
>available that successfully function with simultaneous WPA and WDS
>should demonstrate that it would be possible.

<Looks around and sees a pair ..> ;-)
>
>>p.s. Don't read too much into the wording of some replies .. I'm sure
>>the spirit was well intentioned .. ;-)
>
>Naw. I'm basically evil and consider it my purpose in life to spend
>at least one hour every day, for at least the last year, insulting
>anyone and everyone that asks technical questions in this newsgroup.

Ah, thought so ... !

>I
>also am trying to impress them by burying them in technical detail and
>explanations. The huge amount of money I've received for doing all
>this ($19), and my collection of hate mail, is my reward. It's a
>tough job, but someone has to do it.

Bless ... ;-)
>
>Actually, in this case, something else was going on.

Solvent abuse .. fight with the missus ..?

> On Sunday, I
>apparently was bitten by something that resulted in a rather severe
>allergic reaction.

Ah .. been there recently with our 15 yr old daughter .. ate a pack
of dried fruit and nuts on the grounds that the ingredients list
didn't include peanuts (we know she is very allercic to them).

This also happened last year so I knew the
>symptoms well. I caught it in time with a large dose of Benzadril
>(anti-histamine) but wasn't feeling too good for the following 2 days.

Sri to hear that Jeff. We were on the way to the hospital but some
liquid anti-histamine seemed to get her breathing back ok ..

>I was doing a great impersonation of the walking dead during this
>time, but that didn't stop me from reading this newsgroup and posting
>my daily does of arrogant and insulting messages.

It's only what I have quickly learnt to expect from you Jeff ;-)

My spelling checker
>got a workout and I won't pretend that I was totally coherent. Being
>able to perform my daily insults made me feel somewhat normal, so I
>guess it's justified.

Of course it is! I tried being 'nice' with folk once and they soon
told me to go back to normal .. at least they knew what they were
getting when I was myself! ;-)

All the best and thanks for the help / advice so far ..

T i m (London)

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:55:45 GMT, John Navas
>
>See "HOWTO: Use Linksys WRT54G as a wireless ethernet bridge"
><http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=36&threadid=1513386&frmKeyw ord=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear>

Interesting ...
>
> [SNIP]
>
> So in summary, you don't need two wrt54g routers, nor do you need WDS
> capable routers. A single wrt54g (with the right firmware) can
> operate as a "client" of any other wireless router, and create a
> bridge so any device connected to it will be able to access your
> network and the internet. The above works great for me, even with 3-4
> PCs attached to the wrt54g (verified that it works).

Hi John,

I seem to be in a similar position now with this Belkin / Asus combo,
however I think I'm about to disrupt it all again ...

I was given this Belkin F5D7230-4 as they had lost the PSU and I used
it to replace an old-but-up-to-then-trusty D-Link DI-704 basic cable
router. All was fine till it seemed to have problems dealing with DHCP
and Realtek chip based network devices ..?

Anyway, the Belkin sits happily where the non wireless D-Link sat
between my PC and other stuff and not in the 'optimal' position to
provide cood coverage to my workshop. So I added the pair of Netgear
ME-102 AP's in AP (hard wired to the Belkin) and 'AP Client' mode (in
workshop) that have been working ok .. but just with 128b WEP.

So, what would probably be a good practical solution is to simply
replace the pair of ME-102's with a pair of WL-300g's on the basis
that I can get the one I have now to do what I want as the 'remote' so
it should do the same with one of it's own? The Belkin isn't really
involved in the deal *much* as it's configured and would be even less
so with the link provided by the Asus's and hard wired to the local
one?

Does this sound like a good plan (in spite of Asus's tech support
telling me I wouldn't get WPA over them?)

I also have a friend who needs to remote an X-Box on his cable modem
link .. I have a spare WiFi cable router (Q-Tec 14098) so just need
something to be at the other end for the X-Box (so ethernet) ..
another WL-300g maybe ..?

All the best ..

T i m

http://www.qtec.info/service/support...tm?artnr=14098