Linksys WRT54G vs GL vs GS

I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
experience with these three models?

Thank you.

--


Kurt Todoroff
kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net

Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not coercion.

"Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> hath wroth:

>I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
>GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
>models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
>pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
>experience with these three models?

What are you really looking for? Reliability is not sufficiently
specific and is difficult to quantify. For example, there are 8
different hardware mutations for the WRT54G/GS. Each one has it's own
problems and issues. If you're talking about link reliability (as in
minutes of downtime per year), then they're identical. The only real
difference between the G and GS is speedboost and the sometimes
doubling of flash ROM and working RAM. There are also variations in
what alternative firmware will work with each model. If uptime is
your idea of reliability, all of the low end wireless routers tend to
hang. The only question is how often. The WRT54G/GS with DD-WRT has
a scheduled reboot feature, that hasn't eliminated the hangs, but
certainly helped with recovery.

So, what do mean by reliability and how are you going to use the
router?


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I have had a GL running without any issue for just over a year. Rock solid.
It replaced a G version 1 that I had been using for years (after replacing
the version 1, I determined that it was the AC adapter that had died, not
the router itself). I had first replaced the version 1 with a G version 5,
but that version was nothing but problems and I gave up on it within a
month.

If speed is not the issue, I would definitely recommend the GL. It's
basically the same as the original G(version 4), so it runs a Linux firmware
(supports a number of the modified firmwares that add features).

The only issue with the GL is finding it. Most stores don't stock it. I
got mine (and recently one for my niece) at NewEgg.

Good luck.


"Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kurt.r.todoroff-A69F0D.20015623062007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
> GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
> models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
> pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
> experience with these three models?
>
> Thank you.
>
> --
>
>
> Kurt Todoroff
> kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net
>
> Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
> Consent, not coercion.

In article <6vmr73dvjnk7btk4i5mij7tubfqm3sdi06@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> "Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> hath wroth:
>
> >I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
> >GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
> >models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
> >pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
> >experience with these three models?
>
> What are you really looking for? Reliability is not sufficiently
> specific and is difficult to quantify. For example, there are 8
> different hardware mutations for the WRT54G/GS. Each one has it's own
> problems and issues. If you're talking about link reliability (as in
> minutes of downtime per year), then they're identical. The only real
> difference between the G and GS is speedboost and the sometimes
> doubling of flash ROM and working RAM. There are also variations in
> what alternative firmware will work with each model. If uptime is
> your idea of reliability, all of the low end wireless routers tend to
> hang. The only question is how often. The WRT54G/GS with DD-WRT has
> a scheduled reboot feature, that hasn't eliminated the hangs, but
> certainly helped with recovery.
>
> So, what do mean by reliability and how are you going to use the
> router?

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your reply.

My restaurant point of sale cash register system consists of a POS
server in my office and three POS terminals at the front line and
drive-through stations. I am using a Linksys BEFSR41 router. Since
neither DSL nor cable is available at my location, my ISP provides
wireless Internet service via a small antenna on the roof which
communicates with an antenna on the water tower a couple of tenths of a
mile down the road. The wireless service uses PPPoE. Its typical
bandwidth is 800k.

The Linksys router stops functioning and requires restarting at least
once each day. I unplug the power cable from the back of the router,
wait five seconds, then plug the power cable into the router, then wait
thirty seconds. This becomes aggravating if this occurs during a credit
card transaction.

My research suggests that this router has a history of this behavior. I
wish to replace it in order to eliminate the problem. Since I will be
replacing the router, I have decided to offer wireless Internet access
to my customers. I have conferred with my ISP about the terms of
service. Providing Internet access to my customers does not violate the
terms of service. I am searching for a "g" router that costs less than
eighty dollars. I plan to disable wireless capability until I have
determined how I can isolate my server from external intrusion by others
who are using my router. My POS server is the heart of my business.
Without it, I'm dead in the water.

I have used D-Link routers for the past four years very successfully. I
have installed six of them (DI-604, DI-524, DI-624) at home, my
sister's, my father's, my daughter's, and at my other business. Setup
has always been a piece of cake. I purchased a D-Link WBR-2310 last
week and installed it at my restaurant to replace the Linksys BEFSR41.
Setup was a nightmare. I returned it to OfficeDepot and exchanged it
for another WBR-2310. This one was even worse. It wouldn't even
recover after I performed a hard reset. This was when I decided to look
into Linksys. The WRT54G/GL/GS seemed to fit the bill. However, I have
read that the WRT54G suffers from the same problem that the BEFSR41 does.

I will look at Netgear routers as well.

I appreciate any experience and insight and recommendations that you can
offer. I have no need for 802.11n capability. I would consider
purchasing one if the price was right. I need a reliable router that
does not require daily restarts, and that will shield my server from
local attacks.

Thank you.

--


Kurt Todoroff
kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net

Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not coercion.

Kurt R. Todoroff wrote:
> In article <6vmr73dvjnk7btk4i5mij7tubfqm3sdi06@4ax.com>,
> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> "Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> hath wroth:
>>
>>> I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
>>> GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
>>> models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
>>> pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
>>> experience with these three models?
>> What are you really looking for? Reliability is not sufficiently
>> specific and is difficult to quantify. For example, there are 8
>> different hardware mutations for the WRT54G/GS. Each one has it's own
>> problems and issues. If you're talking about link reliability (as in
>> minutes of downtime per year), then they're identical. The only real
>> difference between the G and GS is speedboost and the sometimes
>> doubling of flash ROM and working RAM. There are also variations in
>> what alternative firmware will work with each model. If uptime is
>> your idea of reliability, all of the low end wireless routers tend to
>> hang. The only question is how often. The WRT54G/GS with DD-WRT has
>> a scheduled reboot feature, that hasn't eliminated the hangs, but
>> certainly helped with recovery.
>>
>> So, what do mean by reliability and how are you going to use the
>> router?
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> My restaurant point of sale cash register system consists of a POS
> server in my office and three POS terminals at the front line and
> drive-through stations. I am using a Linksys BEFSR41 router. Since
> neither DSL nor cable is available at my location, my ISP provides
> wireless Internet service via a small antenna on the roof which
> communicates with an antenna on the water tower a couple of tenths of a
> mile down the road. The wireless service uses PPPoE. Its typical
> bandwidth is 800k.
>
> The Linksys router stops functioning and requires restarting at least
> once each day. I unplug the power cable from the back of the router,
> wait five seconds, then plug the power cable into the router, then wait
> thirty seconds. This becomes aggravating if this occurs during a credit
> card transaction.
>
> My research suggests that this router has a history of this behavior. I
> wish to replace it in order to eliminate the problem. Since I will be
> replacing the router, I have decided to offer wireless Internet access
> to my customers. I have conferred with my ISP about the terms of
> service. Providing Internet access to my customers does not violate the
> terms of service. I am searching for a "g" router that costs less than
> eighty dollars. I plan to disable wireless capability until I have
> determined how I can isolate my server from external intrusion by others
> who are using my router. My POS server is the heart of my business.
> Without it, I'm dead in the water.
>
> I have used D-Link routers for the past four years very successfully. I
> have installed six of them (DI-604, DI-524, DI-624) at home, my
> sister's, my father's, my daughter's, and at my other business. Setup
> has always been a piece of cake. I purchased a D-Link WBR-2310 last
> week and installed it at my restaurant to replace the Linksys BEFSR41.
> Setup was a nightmare. I returned it to OfficeDepot and exchanged it
> for another WBR-2310. This one was even worse. It wouldn't even
> recover after I performed a hard reset. This was when I decided to look
> into Linksys. The WRT54G/GL/GS seemed to fit the bill. However, I have
> read that the WRT54G suffers from the same problem that the BEFSR41 does.
>
> I will look at Netgear routers as well.
>
> I appreciate any experience and insight and recommendations that you can
> offer. I have no need for 802.11n capability. I would consider
> purchasing one if the price was right. I need a reliable router that
> does not require daily restarts, and that will shield my server from
> local attacks.
>
> Thank you.
>


I know it is hard to troubleshoot in a live environment especially when
you are trying to help customers

1. When the problem occurs can you get to the internal interface of your
router, the external, can you reach the ISP's device on the roof, then
the remote device. (Check by IP address to avoid name lookup problems)

2. Does DNS work, can you resolve name to ip address

3. Is there anything on your network like security software the scans
for open ports (like nmap), or p2p software. Both of these can overflow
the limited state tables of low end devices



I'm not sure you can get all that you want for the $80 price range,
there is a difference between consumer grade equipt & business.


I would look to have two separate networks one for the hotspot, and one
for business.

For the security of your network especially since you have a wireless
connection to your ISP

1.) Ensure CC data is encrypted to and from the clearing house.
2.) no reuse of passwords between systems (POS, email, local accounts on
computers)
3.) Don't use an account with admin privileges for daily work
4.) Limit access both physical and network to CC systems
5.) Bandwidth management so you always have enough bw to do work


Thats just a start of some of the things to think about while designing
your network

If you look here
<https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/tech/supporting_documents.htm>

and download the PCI DSS Payment Card Industry Self-Assessment Questionnaire




John

In article <137teop7ja7btd9@news.supernews.com>,
John Mason Jr <notvalid@cox.net.invalid> wrote:

> Kurt R. Todoroff wrote:
> > In article <6vmr73dvjnk7btk4i5mij7tubfqm3sdi06@4ax.com>,
> > Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> hath wroth:
> >>
> >>> I've read several reviews of the G, a few of the GL, and a couple of the
> >>> GS. I have concluded that the GS is the most reliable of the three
> >>> models. While I don't need the speedboost capability, I would rather
> >>> pay the extra twenty dollars for greater reliability. Does anyone have
> >>> experience with these three models?
> >> What are you really looking for? Reliability is not sufficiently
> >> specific and is difficult to quantify. For example, there are 8
> >> different hardware mutations for the WRT54G/GS. Each one has it's own
> >> problems and issues. If you're talking about link reliability (as in
> >> minutes of downtime per year), then they're identical. The only real
> >> difference between the G and GS is speedboost and the sometimes
> >> doubling of flash ROM and working RAM. There are also variations in
> >> what alternative firmware will work with each model. If uptime is
> >> your idea of reliability, all of the low end wireless routers tend to
> >> hang. The only question is how often. The WRT54G/GS with DD-WRT has
> >> a scheduled reboot feature, that hasn't eliminated the hangs, but
> >> certainly helped with recovery.
> >>
> >> So, what do mean by reliability and how are you going to use the
> >> router?
> >
> > Hi Jeff,
> >
> > Thank you for your reply.
> >
> > My restaurant point of sale cash register system consists of a POS
> > server in my office and three POS terminals at the front line and
> > drive-through stations. I am using a Linksys BEFSR41 router. Since
> > neither DSL nor cable is available at my location, my ISP provides
> > wireless Internet service via a small antenna on the roof which
> > communicates with an antenna on the water tower a couple of tenths of a
> > mile down the road. The wireless service uses PPPoE. Its typical
> > bandwidth is 800k.
> >
> > The Linksys router stops functioning and requires restarting at least
> > once each day. I unplug the power cable from the back of the router,
> > wait five seconds, then plug the power cable into the router, then wait
> > thirty seconds. This becomes aggravating if this occurs during a credit
> > card transaction.
> >
> > My research suggests that this router has a history of this behavior. I
> > wish to replace it in order to eliminate the problem. Since I will be
> > replacing the router, I have decided to offer wireless Internet access
> > to my customers. I have conferred with my ISP about the terms of
> > service. Providing Internet access to my customers does not violate the
> > terms of service. I am searching for a "g" router that costs less than
> > eighty dollars. I plan to disable wireless capability until I have
> > determined how I can isolate my server from external intrusion by others
> > who are using my router. My POS server is the heart of my business.
> > Without it, I'm dead in the water.
> >
> > I have used D-Link routers for the past four years very successfully. I
> > have installed six of them (DI-604, DI-524, DI-624) at home, my
> > sister's, my father's, my daughter's, and at my other business. Setup
> > has always been a piece of cake. I purchased a D-Link WBR-2310 last
> > week and installed it at my restaurant to replace the Linksys BEFSR41.
> > Setup was a nightmare. I returned it to OfficeDepot and exchanged it
> > for another WBR-2310. This one was even worse. It wouldn't even
> > recover after I performed a hard reset. This was when I decided to look
> > into Linksys. The WRT54G/GL/GS seemed to fit the bill. However, I have
> > read that the WRT54G suffers from the same problem that the BEFSR41 does.
> >
> > I will look at Netgear routers as well.
> >
> > I appreciate any experience and insight and recommendations that you can
> > offer. I have no need for 802.11n capability. I would consider
> > purchasing one if the price was right. I need a reliable router that
> > does not require daily restarts, and that will shield my server from
> > local attacks.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
>
>
> I know it is hard to troubleshoot in a live environment especially when
> you are trying to help customers
>
> 1. When the problem occurs can you get to the internal interface of your
> router, the external, can you reach the ISP's device on the roof, then
> the remote device. (Check by IP address to avoid name lookup problems)
>
> 2. Does DNS work, can you resolve name to ip address
>
> 3. Is there anything on your network like security software the scans
> for open ports (like nmap), or p2p software. Both of these can overflow
> the limited state tables of low end devices
>
>
>
> I'm not sure you can get all that you want for the $80 price range,
> there is a difference between consumer grade equipt & business.
>
>
> I would look to have two separate networks one for the hotspot, and one
> for business.
>
> For the security of your network especially since you have a wireless
> connection to your ISP
>
> 1.) Ensure CC data is encrypted to and from the clearing house.
> 2.) no reuse of passwords between systems (POS, email, local accounts on
> computers)
> 3.) Don't use an account with admin privileges for daily work
> 4.) Limit access both physical and network to CC systems
> 5.) Bandwidth management so you always have enough bw to do work
>
>
> Thats just a start of some of the things to think about while designing
> your network
>
> If you look here
> <https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/tech/supporting_documents.htm>
>
> and download the PCI DSS Payment Card Industry Self-Assessment Questionnaire
>
>
>
>
> John


Hi John,

#1: I have not attempted to access the router (192.168.1.1) when the
problem occurs. However, I am unable to access other off-site computers
using VNC when this happens. If I remove and restore power to the radio
(for the wireless Internet connection), this does not solve the problem.
Removing and restoring power to the router is the only solution that I
have identified that restores Internet access.

#2: No

#3: No

I am strongly considering creating a second network for my customers.
This is the only method that I am aware of that will insulate my system
from unwanted visitors. However, I am exploring all alternatives, first.

Thank you.

--


Kurt Todoroff
kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net

Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not coercion.

Hi!

> I need a reliable router that does not require daily restarts, and that
> will shield my server from local attacks.

I would suggest looking at the Buffalo lineup of routers. The WHR-G54S can
still be found and it is an inexpensive router. You can use it with the
stock firmware, or reflash it with DD-WRT firmware.

I've put a lot of these routers out for myself and other people. Not a one
has failed or had any problems.

William

On Jun 24, 2:13 pm, "Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todor...@comcast.net>
wrote:

<snip>
> I am strongly considering creating a second network for my customers.
> This is the only method that I am aware of that will insulate my system
> from unwanted visitors. However, I am exploring all alternatives, first.

WRT setting up a second network. In the last month I have installed a
couple of Versa Technology VX-AP200 dual network access points. This
device provides two separate and isolated wireless networks. The
public WLAN is also isolated from the wired LAN, except for those
wired devices you specify. Set up is reasonably straight forward via a
web interface. Please note that the VX-AP200 is not a router, so you
still need a replacement for your BEFSR41.

"Kurt R. Todoroff" <kurt.r.todoroff@comcast.net> hath wroth:

>My restaurant point of sale cash register system consists of a POS
>server in my office and three POS terminals at the front line and
>drive-through stations. I am using a Linksys BEFSR41 router. Since
>neither DSL nor cable is available at my location, my ISP provides
>wireless Internet service via a small antenna on the roof which
>communicates with an antenna on the water tower a couple of tenths of a
>mile down the road. The wireless service uses PPPoE. Its typical
>bandwidth is 800k.
>
>The Linksys router stops functioning and requires restarting at least
>once each day. I unplug the power cable from the back of the router,
>wait five seconds, then plug the power cable into the router, then wait
>thirty seconds. This becomes aggravating if this occurs during a credit
>card transaction.

True. The BEFSR41 and it's wireless cousin, the BEFW11S4v4 have a
reputation for crashing without much provocation. My limited
tinkering with running both off of battery power has not yielded any
improvements in uptime. Running router exploits tests from:
<https://office.learnbydestroying.com:8080/>
will hang some versions of the BEFSR41 and the BEFW11S4v4. I haven
recently received new firmware which may solve the BEFW11S4v4 problem,
but I forgot to try it.

Comparing that with the WRT54G/GS running DD-WRT v23 SP2 and SP3 is
much better. My office at:
<https://office.learnbydestroying.com:8080/>
shows 15 days uptime. My neighborhood WLAN at:
<https://home.learnbydestroying.com:8080/>
shows only 9 hours of uptime because I have it rebooting every
evening. The reboots were not inspired by a hung router. It's
beacause of a bug in the SSH server that causes it to be inaccessible
to remote access after about 3 days of operation. The wireless LAN
and router remain up, but I can't remotely monitor it.

I also have similar coffee shop systems running a mix of WRT54G/GS and
Buffalo WHR-HP-54G and WHR-G54S routers, running mostly DD-WRT v23 SP2
and OpenWRT running WhiteRussian 0.9 (old). All of these have had
uptime issues at some point in time. As experimentation with new
firmware releases appear, the bugs and glitches come and go.
Sometimes, it affects uptime, but more often, some new feature breaks
some old working feature. Much of the exercise is dedicated to
finding the one true versions that has everything you need working.

>My research suggests that this router has a history of this behavior. I
>wish to replace it in order to eliminate the problem. Since I will be
>replacing the router, I have decided to offer wireless Internet access
>to my customers. I have conferred with my ISP about the terms of
>service. Providing Internet access to my customers does not violate the
>terms of service. I am searching for a "g" router that costs less than
>eighty dollars. I plan to disable wireless capability until I have
>determined how I can isolate my server from external intrusion by others
>who are using my router. My POS server is the heart of my business.
>Without it, I'm dead in the water.

Ask your wireless ISP if he can deliver two IP addresses via whatever
you're using for connectivity. With two addresses, you can have two
seperate networks, which only share the 800Kbit/sec bandwidth, but are
otherwise completely isolated from each other. His wireless bridge
radio should easily be able to do that.

The catch is that you will need two routers. One for your POS system,
and one for the customers to wreak havoc. The ethernet output of the
bridge radio goes to a cheap 4 port ethernet switch or hub. From
there, it goes to the two seperate routers. There are many advantages
to this arrangement, not the least of which is lack of complexity,
guaranteed isolation, and the ability to throttle or just turn off the
wireless part when you need the bandwidth. Monitoring the wireless
network might be a problem, but that can be handled with a single PC
using two ethernet cards, one for each network. I've done it like
this, and several other ways in the past.

The DD-WRT firmware is especially suited for running a coffee shop
type of open wireless network. It has various authentication and
authorization schemes built in.
<http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Chillispot>
V23 SP3 added WifiDog:
<http://dev.wifidog.org>
Or, you could subscribe to a service to run your hotspot for you.

>I have used D-Link routers for the past four years very successfully. I
>have installed six of them (DI-604, DI-524, DI-624) at home, my
>sister's, my father's, my daughter's, and at my other business. Setup
>has always been a piece of cake. I purchased a D-Link WBR-2310 last
>week and installed it at my restaurant to replace the Linksys BEFSR41.
>Setup was a nightmare. I returned it to OfficeDepot and exchanged it
>for another WBR-2310. This one was even worse. It wouldn't even
>recover after I performed a hard reset.

The WBR-2310 is a DI-624 in a new package. Look at the FCC ID number
on the serial number tag for a clue. FCC ID: KA2-DI624D2 I've had
mixed experiences with DLink products over the years. Some are quite
good (DWL-900AP+, DI-604 revE) while other are not my idea of quality.
At this time, I'm doing battle with a pair of new DLink 8 port gigabit
switches, that appear to be the cause of random network packet loss.
Let's just say, you've been lucky.

>This was when I decided to look
>into Linksys. The WRT54G/GL/GS seemed to fit the bill. However, I have
>read that the WRT54G suffers from the same problem that the BEFSR41 does.

They all do. It just varies by frequency. Bottom of the line routers
are not designed for high uptime. I had one local customer ask me to
see if I could do something about his router that was hanging. I
found some neighbor had hacked into his system and was using it for
Bitorrent file sharing. The router couldn't handle the load and would
crash. Eliminate neighbor by tightening the security, and the router
was stable. About a year ago, I was using a BEFW11S4v4 for the
neighborhood WLAN. It hung erratically, so I just installed an AC
power appliance timer to power cycle the box twice a day. End of hang
problem. Whatever works.

If you want high uptime, you'll have to pay for it. Look into
wireless products by Sonicwall, Cisco, and 3com.

>I will look at Netgear routers as well.

Same story. The various mutations of the WGR614 are not all that good
with uptime. I have 2 of them running mountaintop weather stations.
The AC power to these routers is not the best and tends to hang thing.
I have the modems, routers, and controllers on various UPS power
supplies, and they still tend to hang. At this time, I have no remote
reboot system installed, so I have to drive to the mountain to cycle
the power. One a 3rd site, I replaced the WGR614v5 with a Buffalo
WHR-G54S running DD-WRT something. It's been about a month and now it
only hangs when the backup generator is tested or running. Prior to
that, I tried an ancient Sonicwall SOHO-10, which worked prefectly,
but didn't have wireless.

>I appreciate any experience and insight and recommendations that you can
>offer. I have no need for 802.11n capability. I would consider
>purchasing one if the price was right. I need a reliable router that
>does not require daily restarts, and that will shield my server from
>local attacks.

I think you had better look into what it takes to administer a public
wi-fi hot spot. Unauthorized access and abuse are the biggest
headaches. You may find the equipment (RADIUS server), the monitoring
software, and the access key administration, to be too much for your
establishment. Arranging to have a service provider manage the hot
spot would probably be a worthwhile exercise. Answering dumb wireless
setup questions has turned into a time burner for one pizza parlor.
Also, there is the problem of the table hog, who buys one cup of
coffee, and monopolizes the table with his laptop all afternoon.

See the FAQ on how to setup a hotspot:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To#Setup_a_hotspot>

There are also turnkey hotspot solutions, which I'm too lazy to
itemize. Here's one:
<http://www.hotspotsystem.com>
or join a free wireless network:
<http://www.fon.com>

Otherwise, if you want to do it yourself, I think Linksys hardware is
suitable, but I prefer Buffalo. The GS has more RAM and makes some
things easier assuming you're using DD-WRT or other replacement
firmware.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Seems like a WRT54GL or a Buffalo WHR-HP-54 running DD-WRT could just
get you there.

1) You can isolate wired and wireless (Jeff or somebody- how secure is
that?)

2) DD-WRT works with Sputnik or Chilispot hotspot sites.

3) You can set the router to automatically reboot every night or every
week etc, to keep it "fresh"


I think the Linksys GL is a bit easier to change firmward on where as
the Buffalo has more range.

Steve

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:59:30 -0700, seaweedsteve
<seaweedsteve@gmail.com> wrote:

>Seems like a WRT54GL or a Buffalo WHR-HP-54 running DD-WRT could just
>get you there.
>
>1) You can isolate wired and wireless (Jeff or somebody- how secure is
>that?)

If you do it using the various VLAN's (virtual LAN's) supplied, it's
VERY secure. That's one way that ISP's isolate their customers from
the internal networks. Basically, it's an entirely separate LAN. That
being said, I must confess to not having tried it, even though it's an
obvious application. Here's some verbiage on the topic that Google
found:
<http://forum.bsr-clan.de/ftopic1413.html>
Ugh. Looks messy. I was going to try it, but now I'm not sure I want
to slog through all that.

>2) DD-WRT works with Sputnik or Chilispot hotspot sites.

Yep. Also WiFiDog in v23 sp3:
<http://dev.wifidog.org>

>3) You can set the router to automatically reboot every night or every
>week etc, to keep it "fresh"
>
>
>I think the Linksys GL is a bit easier to change firmward on where as
>the Buffalo has more range.

Buffalo downloadable firmware is compressed, while Linksys is not.
Therefore the web Buffalo interface for installing firmware doesn't
work for installing DD-WRT. However, the TFTP method works just fine.

I agree that the Buffalo WHR-HP-54G has more range than the various
Linksys products. However, that's not always a good thing. I spent a
few minutes at a local coffee shop customer today adjusting the power
output downwards, so that it could not be heard outside the shop.
There were just too many freeloaders sitting just outside the store,
not buying anything, and sucking bandwidth.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Jun 26, 8:23 pm, Jeff Liebermann <j...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us>
wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:59:30 -0700, seaweedsteve
> >1) You can isolate wired and wireless (Jeff or somebody- how secure is
> >that?)
>
> If you do it using the various VLAN's (virtual LAN's) supplied, it's
> VERY secure. That's one way that ISP's isolate their customers from
> the internal networks. Basically, it's an entirely separate LAN. .... Looks messy.


OK. Vlan is something more complex.

I was referring to the "AP Isolation" setting under Wireless>Advanced,
which I don't understand either !
Would that setting provide security/isolation between the wired LAN
and the AP? Or even between the wireless clients?

..
> Therefore the web Buffalo interface for installing firmware doesn't
> work for installing DD-WRT. However, the TFTP method works just fine.

Agreed. TFTP is easy enough. Just trying to note the few
differences there are in the Buffalo and LinksysL. The web interface
approach to changing firmware is perhaps more likely to yield instant
success with minimal effort.

The only current Linksys to recommend would be the L version. Any of
the Buffalo WHRs should work. The cheaper new Buffalo WHR-125 is
another good DD-WRT option if external antennas are not required.


Steve

seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>On Jun 26, 8:23 pm, Jeff Liebermann <j...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:59:30 -0700, seaweedsteve
>> >1) You can isolate wired and wireless (Jeff or somebody- how secure is
>> >that?)
>>
>> If you do it using the various VLAN's (virtual LAN's) supplied, it's
>> VERY secure. That's one way that ISP's isolate their customers from
>> the internal networks. Basically, it's an entirely separate LAN. .... Looks messy.

>OK. Vlan is something more complex.
>
>I was referring to the "AP Isolation" setting under Wireless>Advanced,
>which I don't understand either !
>
>Would that setting provide security/isolation between the wired LAN
>and the AP? Or even between the wireless clients?

It's easy. First, AP Isolation should really be called "wireless
client isolation". It doesn't isolate the access point. It isolates
the wireless clients.

What it does it prevent any form of bridging between wireless clients,
while still allowing bridging between wireless clients and ethernet
connected clients. It also doesn't prevent bridging between wired
ethernet clients, just wireless. It's a basic requirement for coffee
shop wireless networks to prevent users from attacking each others
laptops, whether inadvertently via a virus, or intentionally.

It does improve the general security somewhat in that it eliminates a
common and potentially serious problem. Whether it offers anything
useful for the home user is debatable. At worst, it prevents wireless
to wireless file transfers and gaming, which might be a problem.
That's why it's off by default.

>The web interface
>approach to changing firmware is perhaps more likely to yield instant
>success with minimal effort.

Ummm... I'm not so sure. I've screwed up more firmware updates on
various pieces of hardware, using the web interface, than using TFTP.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the web protocols or methods.
It's just that it's far too easy for me to pick the wrong image file
with a web interface, where I can't see the full path name in the tiny
box, than with TFTP, where it takes more thinking and typing. I guess
it's just me as I can type long command line incantations, and get
them right, while a single mouse click, I usually screw up.

>The only current Linksys to recommend would be the L version.

The WRT54GL is exactly the same as the WRT54G v4.0 with a different
name and a higher price tag.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrt54g#WRT54GL>
See the notes.

>Any of
>the Buffalo WHRs should work. The cheaper new Buffalo WHR-125 is
>another good DD-WRT option if external antennas are not required.

That assumes you can actually purchase Buffalo products.
<http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199905713&cid=RSSfeed_ TechWeb>
<http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070620/183411.shtml>
Anyone from Australia here with a clue as to why the government is
bankrolling the CSIRO to play patent troll?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:tln783ddniv9pjj62s686geej7tda4oua6@4ax.com...
> That assumes you can actually purchase Buffalo products.


I just ordered the WHR-HP-G54 from newegg. $58.......

We'll see if it actually arrives......

That's interesting! So if I understand right, by following the IEEE
standards, these companies (buffalo/anybody) may now be in trouble?

If that is the case, and it's not frivolous, it seems like it's IEEE
who really screwed up...and Buffalo is taking the hit for it. Man, I
bet their lawyers are working overtime.

Steve

seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>That's interesting! So if I understand right, by following the IEEE
>standards, these companies (buffalo/anybody) may now be in trouble?

That's the way I read it. CSIRO has similar suits filed against
everyone except Cisco/Linksys.
<http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30070/97/>

CSIRO (Australia) seems to think they own the technology and found a
judge in Texas that agrees. What's unusual is that the judge issued
an injuction against the importation of the equipment under
contention. He also issued a previous summary judgement upholding the
validity of the patent. Summary judgements are very rare in technical
cases. Injunctions are only suppose to be issued prior to the
completion of the inevitable appeals if the victim (CSIRO) can
demonstrate grievous financial damage would be caused by continued
sales. Since CSIRO isn't manufacturing anything, such a "stop
everything" injunction is most unusual.
<http://news.morningstar.com/news/ViewNews.asp?article=/DJ/200706201652DOWJONESDJONLINE001115_univ.xml&pgid=q tqnNews5>
The injunction totally ignored the Supreme Court decision that patent
injunctions will only be issued against active competitors, not patent
trolls or foreign government agencies acting like a patent troll.

> If that is the case, and it's not frivolous, it seems like it's IEEE
>who really screwed up...and Buffalo is taking the hit for it. Man, I
>bet their lawyers are working overtime.

Yep. I don't have the terms of the injunction, but it seems to be
widely ignored (for good reason).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> seaweedsteve <seaweedsteve@gmail.com> hath wroth:
>
>> That's interesting! So if I understand right, by following the IEEE
>> standards, these companies (buffalo/anybody) may now be in trouble?
>
> That's the way I read it. CSIRO has similar suits filed against
> everyone except Cisco/Linksys.
> <http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30070/97/>

I haven't been able to find confirmation but I believe Cisco already pay
royalties to CSIRO as part of their acquisition of Radiata.

>
> CSIRO (Australia) seems to think they own the technology and found a
> judge in Texas that agrees. What's unusual is that the judge issued
> an injuction against the importation of the equipment under
> contention. He also issued a previous summary judgement upholding the
> validity of the patent. Summary judgements are very rare in technical
> cases. Injunctions are only suppose to be issued prior to the
> completion of the inevitable appeals if the victim (CSIRO) can
> demonstrate grievous financial damage would be caused by continued
> sales. Since CSIRO isn't manufacturing anything, such a "stop
> everything" injunction is most unusual.
> <http://news.morningstar.com/news/ViewNews.asp?article=/DJ/200706201652DOWJONESDJONLINE001115_univ.xml&pgid=q tqnNews5>
> The injunction totally ignored the Supreme Court decision that patent
> injunctions will only be issued against active competitors, not patent
> trolls or foreign government agencies acting like a patent troll.
>
>> If that is the case, and it's not frivolous, it seems like it's IEEE
>> who really screwed up...and Buffalo is taking the hit for it. Man, I
>> bet their lawyers are working overtime.
>
> Yep. I don't have the terms of the injunction, but it seems to be
> widely ignored (for good reason).
>
It appears to be a long running dispute .
2005
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/Breaking/CSIRO-hit-with-wifi-patent-suit/2005/05/19/1116361656580.html>
It doesn't affect 802.11b technology
http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/...727_5409_0.htm


From:- http://mcsmith.blogs.com/
Judge Davis' holding that research institutions may obtain injunctive
relief when their patents are infringed cited to language in the Supreme
Court's eBay opinion which he noted "rejected the conclusion that 'a
"plaintiff’s willingness to license its patents" and "its lack of
commercial activity in practicing the patents" would be sufficient to
establish that the patent holder would not suffer irreparable harm if an
injunction did not issue.'" He went on to note that the harm at issue
was not simply financial, and consisted as well of "lost opportunities"
for its research & development programs. Judge Davis concluded that a
compulsory license was not adequate as a remedy, and that the balance of
hardships favored CSIRO. Finally, Judge Davis wrote at length on the
public interest factor, noting that the work of research institutions
such as CSIRO is often fundamental to scientific advancement, and thus
merits strong patent protection. More importantly, for purposes of this
factor, however, the products to be enjoined did not have strong publich
health or safety characteristic (such as medical devices might).

Accordingly, Judge Davis concluded that an injunction was warranted, and
gave the parties five days to submit a proposed permanent injunction for
the Court's consideration.

kev <invalid@invalid.invalid> hath wroth:

>> That's the way I read it. CSIRO has similar suits filed against
>> everyone except Cisco/Linksys.
>> <http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30070/97/>
>
>I haven't been able to find confirmation but I believe Cisco already pay
>royalties to CSIRO as part of their acquisition of Radiata.

Correct. That was part of the deal. Royalties are part of the deal.
However, I don't know if Cisco is paying them only for the use of
their Radiata products, or if it also covers all of Cisco's 802.11g
technology, such as what they sell from Linksys, Airespace or Aironet.

>It appears to be a long running dispute .

Have you ever heard of a short running patent dispute? I'm marginally
involved in one that's been going for about 12 years.

>From:- http://mcsmith.blogs.com/
>Judge Davis' holding that research institutions may obtain injunctive
>relief when their patents are infringed cited to language in the Supreme
>Court's eBay opinion which he noted "rejected the conclusion that 'a
>"plaintiff’s willingness to license its patents" and "its lack of
>commercial activity in practicing the patents" would be sufficient to
>establish that the patent holder would not suffer irreparable harm if an
>injunction did not issue.'"

Baloney. This is not a criminal case, where the intent of the parties
is a consideration. This judge has a problem.

>He went on to note that the harm at issue
>was not simply financial, and consisted as well of "lost opportunities"
>for its research & development programs.

More baloney. The same "lost opportunity" logic could apply to
literally any patent troll who claims that he might some day get
around to doing something with his patent instead of making money
suing everyone. In my never humble opinion, patents should have a
"use it or lose it" clause, which requires a real product in order to
retain the patent past a specified time period.

>Judge Davis concluded that a
>compulsory license was not adequate as a remedy,

That's because compulsory licenses don't include damages and I guess
the CSIRO is holding out for the big buck damages.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558