Looking for hardware opinions for rural link

I would like a wireless link for Internet access and phone service (through
the net). I live near the Oregon coast. No land lines here, and no cell
service. Now have Direcway but, uplink speed slow (as low as 22k at times),
and latency and packet loss (I assume, voice unintelligable) too bad for
phone service. In addition, FAP (although I only hit it 3 times in several
years) nearly had me take a sledge hammer to it. Normally I'm using pretty
minimal bandwidth, just email and browser, but pull chunks when upgrading
computers, and have problems trying to do a video chat with family. Never
have gotten into games or file sharing. Do a few websites, and uploads are
very irritating (at work I'm used to the dual T3s, and have had them
available for many years there).

I've seen some complete bridging setups that range from 6 to 8k per link
(like Carlson or Motorola). Double that for me. I could not afford it.
Also, the area is frequently used for hunting, 4-wheeling, etc. Quite a few
yokels out here that shoot up equipment for fun. I need something relatively
inexpensive so that I can afford to replace it occasionally, when vandals hit.
I've been perusing wireless links for 8-9 years now, but have no experience
other than the WGR614 Netgear at home.

Required:
- 512k both directions (1M would be a plus)
- inexpensive hardware (I might spend a couple thousand dollars, I would not
spend 10k)
- a repeater since I live in a hilly, forested area and have no LOS to the
source
- always on, and available for phone through internet in emergencies (one of
the mostimportant considerations)
- point-to-point (point to multipoint from repeater site to remote would be
a plus - a couple neighbors might share some costs then)

Source Site:
Oregon central Coast
Elevation: 40m

Repeater Site:
16.6Km from Source
Elevation: 488m
No utilities vailable

Remote Site:
4.5Km from Repeater
Elevation: 364m
My home (Remote Site) is actually about 100m below the radio site on the
opposite side of the hill. Have normal grid power.

I saw an earlier post suggesting a program called Radio Mobile. I downloaded
it and plotted a couple of links (prior to that I've only used Topo USA for
profiling terrain). If anyone is interested, I posted the profiles (viewable
with rmpath.exe) to: frenock.com/radioMobile along with a jpeg (500k) and
the map file the program created (3.7M).

Lastly, we are heavily forested out here with firs over 50m. Depending on the
chosen site, this would require a huge tower to top them which I am unlikely
to want to buy and install, even if I could get permissions for it. What's
the chances of placing an antenna part way up one of these trees (as far as
movement and alignment for these long links)? Has anyone tried that before?

Snow is infrequent. Winter weather mild, but much precipitation. There are
emergency towers and radios about 3 miles away, at right angles to the line
from the remote site to town. I'm hoping to hook up to an ISP at the source
site (Newport, OR). I haven't done any type of check for frquencies in use
out here, but it is a remote area and unlikely that I'd have much to contend
with. State police and county sheriff vehicles out here have no reception
unless they get up on a ridge.

What I'm looking for is your opinions, suggestions, for the equipment. I've
read some of the earlier posts concerning power requirements for a solar site,
etc. Not wanting you to re-hash that, but keep it in mind when suggesting
equipment.

I've managed to stay confused about the hardware requirements for the
repeater. Does it require two seperate units in most cases? I've seen
hardware like the Airpoint XO2 that features dual radios and seems to suggest
it will work as a repeater with two antennas facing opposite directions (I
assume one radio for each antenna, and an internal connection to pass data).
I've seen equipment advertised that show a picture of just what I want
(repeater on top of a mountanous mid-point), but they don't mention whether
that requires two units, or just two antennas, etc.

What else can I give you that might help your suggestions? Have a great day!

bobf.

--
Message posted via HWKB.com
http://www.hwkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/...eless/200608/1

bobf via HWKB.com wrote:
> I would like a wireless link for Internet access and phone service
> (through the net). I live near the Oregon coast. No land lines
> here, and no cell service. Now have Direcway but, uplink speed slow
> (as low as 22k at times), and latency and packet loss (I assume,
> voice unintelligable) too bad for phone service. In addition, FAP
> (although I only hit it 3 times in several years) nearly had me take
> a sledge hammer to it. Normally I'm using pretty minimal bandwidth,
> just email and browser, but pull chunks when upgrading computers, and
> have problems trying to do a video chat with family. Never have
> gotten into games or file sharing. Do a few websites, and uploads
> are very irritating (at work I'm used to the dual T3s, and have had
> them available for many years there).
>
> I've seen some complete bridging setups that range from 6 to 8k per
> link (like Carlson or Motorola). Double that for me. I could not
> afford it. Also, the area is frequently used for hunting, 4-wheeling,
> etc. Quite a few yokels out here that shoot up equipment for fun. I
> need something relatively inexpensive so that I can afford to replace
> it occasionally, when vandals hit. I've been perusing wireless links
> for 8-9 years now, but have no experience other than the WGR614
> Netgear at home.
>
> Required:
> - 512k both directions (1M would be a plus)
> - inexpensive hardware (I might spend a couple thousand dollars, I
> would not spend 10k)
> - a repeater since I live in a hilly, forested area and have no LOS
> to the source
> - always on, and available for phone through internet in emergencies
> (one of the mostimportant considerations)
> - point-to-point (point to multipoint from repeater site to remote
> would be
> a plus - a couple neighbors might share some costs then)
>
> Source Site:
> Oregon central Coast
> Elevation: 40m
>
> Repeater Site:
> 16.6Km from Source
> Elevation: 488m
> No utilities vailable
>
> Remote Site:
> 4.5Km from Repeater
> Elevation: 364m
> My home (Remote Site) is actually about 100m below the radio site on
> the opposite side of the hill. Have normal grid power.
>
> I saw an earlier post suggesting a program called Radio Mobile. I
> downloaded it and plotted a couple of links (prior to that I've only
> used Topo USA for profiling terrain). If anyone is interested, I
> posted the profiles (viewable with rmpath.exe) to:
> frenock.com/radioMobile along with a jpeg (500k) and the map file
> the program created (3.7M).
>
> Lastly, we are heavily forested out here with firs over 50m.
> Depending on the chosen site, this would require a huge tower to top
> them which I am unlikely to want to buy and install, even if I could
> get permissions for it. What's the chances of placing an antenna
> part way up one of these trees (as far as movement and alignment for
> these long links)? Has anyone tried that before?
>
> Snow is infrequent. Winter weather mild, but much precipitation.
> There are emergency towers and radios about 3 miles away, at right
> angles to the line from the remote site to town. I'm hoping to hook
> up to an ISP at the source site (Newport, OR). I haven't done any
> type of check for frquencies in use out here, but it is a remote area
> and unlikely that I'd have much to contend with. State police and
> county sheriff vehicles out here have no reception unless they get up
> on a ridge.
>
> What I'm looking for is your opinions, suggestions, for the
> equipment. I've read some of the earlier posts concerning power
> requirements for a solar site, etc. Not wanting you to re-hash that,
> but keep it in mind when suggesting equipment.
>
> I've managed to stay confused about the hardware requirements for the
> repeater. Does it require two seperate units in most cases? I've
> seen hardware like the Airpoint XO2 that features dual radios and
> seems to suggest it will work as a repeater with two antennas facing
> opposite directions (I assume one radio for each antenna, and an
> internal connection to pass data). I've seen equipment advertised
> that show a picture of just what I want (repeater on top of a
> mountanous mid-point), but they don't mention whether that requires
> two units, or just two antennas, etc.
>
> What else can I give you that might help your suggestions? Have a
> great day!
>
> bobf.

Check with your local school system. In a small town in northern Idaho (no
cable or dsl) I found they were using a repeater/relay system on a nearby
Mountain (Mount Spokane), and their ISP let me glom onto it for a very small
fee per month.. Turns out that most schools these days have hi-speed
internet for the students and teachers... You probably have schools, and
oregon probably has mountains, so they may know how you can do it the same
as they do... Worth a shot... I never bothered setting up the direcway cuz
I found a better way (with no fap and no latency)..


Just for fun, I looked at this link
http://www.onelasvegas.com/wireless/OR.html <-- among other things, a map of
wireless stuff from skynet in oregon (but I don't know where you or at, so I
couldn't narrow it down for you)... Basically, Skynet is providing HUGE
hotspot areas with 802.11b (we are talking 100-300 square mile hotspots...
You may very well be in one).. Turns out they added my town (Rathdrum
Idaho), but after I already did the school thing... Did end up using it on
my PDA (HP iPaq with built in wireless), so I could surf/email from the PDA
when I was many miles from home..

Do you have Cellphone service in your area? I have verizon, and their 1x
(nationalaccess, always on data card, about $49 bucks a month), was in one
of my laptops, a bit slower than you requested, but better than nothing...
(with cell service, and free LD, you probably wouldn't even need VOIP)...

Peter Pan wrote:
>Check with your local school system.
Worth a try. From what I understood, there was a mess of fiber laid in
Newport and Toledo. The city got to use a lot that was going unused. I just
assumed that schools would be hooked to that, but never thought to check.
The other factor is that the towns lie close to sea level while I'm inland
about 10 miles. Neither town could reach me LOS from anywhere close.

>Just for fun, I looked at this link
>http://www.onelasvegas.com/wireless/OR.html <-- among other things, a map of
>wireless stuff from skynet in oregon (but I don't know where you or at, so I
>couldn't narrow it down for you)... Basically, Skynet is providing HUGE
>hotspot areas with 802.11b (we are talking 100-300 square mile hotspots...
>You may very well be in one)..

I browsed through the listings, but I don't think you understand. Unless
they can punch through 1200 foot ridges over a minimum of 10 miles and get
back down to several hundred feet - its not happening. The likelyhood of any
provider putting towers out in the forest for the few scores of people with
property within 10 miles of me is pretty remote.

>Do you have Cellphone service in your area? I have verizon, and their 1x
As I said, cell phones do not work out here either.

bobf.

--
Message posted via http://www.hwkb.com

bobf via HWKB.com wrote:
> Peter Pan wrote:
>> Check with your local school system.
> Worth a try. From what I understood, there was a mess of fiber laid
> in Newport and Toledo. The city got to use a lot that was going
> unused. I just assumed that schools would be hooked to that, but
> never thought to check. The other factor is that the towns lie close
> to sea level while I'm inland about 10 miles. Neither town could
> reach me LOS from anywhere close.
>
>> Just for fun, I looked at this link
>> http://www.onelasvegas.com/wireless/OR.html <-- among other things,
>> a map of wireless stuff from skynet in oregon (but I don't know
>> where you or at, so I couldn't narrow it down for you)... Basically,
>> Skynet is providing HUGE hotspot areas with 802.11b (we are talking
>> 100-300 square mile hotspots... You may very well be in one)..
>
> I browsed through the listings, but I don't think you understand.
> Unless they can punch through 1200 foot ridges over a minimum of 10
> miles and get back down to several hundred feet - its not happening.
> The likelyhood of any provider putting towers out in the forest for
> the few scores of people with property within 10 miles of me is
> pretty remote.
>
>> Do you have Cellphone service in your area? I have verizon, and
>> their 1x
> As I said, cell phones do not work out here either.
>
> bobf.

I wonder if you may have misunderstood what they do in some areas of the
northwest (Northern Idaho and NE Washington at least)... The spokane
rathdrum skynet area was 100's of square MILES of hi-speed wifi.. Not some
wimpy "hotspot" that was only a few hundred feet, we are talking tens of
MILES... I used to have Hi-speed internet on the PDA with them even when out
ATV'ng, on the boat on several lakes, driving around, riding the horses etc,
even on a jetboat on the snake river in hells canyon)... It is on a lot of
mountain tops ringing a HUGE area, and provides service in areas where
there's no electricity, and even cellphones don't work.... Doesn't need use
any towers in the area, can be on a mountain top about 20 miles away, and
high speed microwave links can even be on a mountain up to 50 miles away....

The link was to a map of high speed wireless in the oregon area, and while
you may be in an area that isn't covered (have no idea where exactly you
are, I asked, but you didn't answer and I have no idea)

Guess what I am saying is that was my attitude a while back (hey, I'm way
out in the sticks, in a valley with mountains almost ((note the word
"almost" was about 20 degrees of a circle that wasn't ridges, and there
happened to be a site in that direction) all around, there couldn't possibly
be anything).. was changed big time when I ran the free program
"netstumbler" (from www.netstumbler.org ministumbler from the same URL for
my PDA with built in WiFi) and showed active wifi in my area, I didn't even
think it was possible... (To be honest, I did have to use a USB directional
dongle on the TV mast in the garage/playroom area, there was a metal
snowroof on it and it wasn't seeing anything), but what the heck, the
netstumbler is free, and won't cost anything to at least give it a shot..
As for the cellphone stuff, it doesn't normally work in this area, but I
have a repeater at my home (high power directional yagi on the roof aimed at
a cell site about 18 miles away, BDA and omni for service on my property,
also happened to work for my data card)... Sounds silly, but I am an
internet junkie, and went a little nuts trying to get the hi-tech stuff
working where it wasn't supposed to :) (check out the website
http://www.cellantenna.com/ and look at the home repeaters, no cell access
in my area unless the neighbors where in my driveway! :)

While none of these ideas may work for you, i think the biggie for me was
trying to actually see what was out there, rather than assume there wasn't
anything..

Peter Pan wrote:
>>> Check with your local school system.
>> Worth a try. From what I understood, there was a mess of fiber laid
>[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>> bobf.
>
>I wonder if you may have misunderstood what they do in some areas of the
>northwest

I probably have no idea.

>The link was to a map of high speed wireless in the oregon area, and while
>you may be in an area that isn't covered (have no idea where exactly you
>are, I asked, but you didn't answer and I have no idea)


The closest town is Toledo, and I'm trying for Newport (noted in my original
post.) According to the map you referenced, this area seems pretty well
saturated with coverage. On a skeptical note, cell sites show similar
coverage that I don't have.

>Guess what I am saying is that was my attitude a while back (hey, I'm way
>out in the sticks, in a valley with mountains almost ((note the word
>"almost" was about 20 degrees of a circle that wasn't ridges, and there
>happened to be a site in that direction) all around, there couldn't possibly
>be anything).. was changed big time when I ran the free program
>"netstumbler" (from www.netstumbler.org ministumbler from the same URL for
>my PDA with built in WiFi) and showed active wifi in my area, I didn't even
>think it was possible... (To be honest, I did have to use a USB directional
>dongle on the TV mast in the garage/playroom area, there was a metal
>snowroof on it and it wasn't seeing anything), but what the heck, the
>netstumbler is free, and won't cost anything to at least give it a shot..

My misperception (if it is) is due to everyone dwelling on LOS (including
many posts in this forum) of which I have none (my horizon goes from 10's of
yards to less than a mile and there is vitually nothing man-made in that area)
I've heard of netstumbler many times but never tried it. Guess now I will.


>As for the cellphone stuff, it doesn't normally work in this area, but I
>have a repeater at my home

I looked into antennas and amplifiers for the cell phone. I understood that
you needed at least an indication of a signal, even if you couldn't connect.
I don't have that. Nearest area where I use the cell is about 3.5 miles up
the road, and it's spotty. 7 miles the other direction.

Sounds silly, but I am an
>internet junkie, and went a little nuts trying to get the hi-tech stuff
>working where it wasn't supposed to :) (check out the website
>http://www.cellantenna.com/ and look at the home repeaters, no cell access
>in my area unless the neighbors where in my driveway! :)
>

It's absolutely great where I live, so I'm willing to go the extra mile for
my fix also ...

>While none of these ideas may work for you, i think the biggie for me was
>trying to actually see what was out there, rather than assume there wasn't
>anything..

You're right. I should systematically eliminate the possibilities,
especially considering I have no no real experience with WiFi. Heck, I've
never even connected at a hot-spot. Closest thing was a motel room when away
on business. Appreciate the suggestions.

bobf.

--
Message posted via HWKB.com
http://www.hwkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/...eless/200608/1

bobf via HWKB.com wrote:

>
> My misperception (if it is) is due to everyone dwelling on LOS
> (including many posts in this forum) of which I have none (my horizon
> goes from 10's of yards to less than a mile and there is vitually
> nothing man-made in that area) I've heard of netstumbler many times
> but never tried it. Guess now I will.
>
>
>
> bobf.

My thinking tells me to try what people say is impossible.. Didn't Columbus
think the world was round, and discover north america when all the people
said he was crazy, the world was flat and he would fall off? :)

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:48:12 -0400, "Peter Pan"
<PeterPanNOSPAM@AkamailNOSPAM.com> wrote in
<jYmdnUxZuNTeVE3ZnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@comcast.com>:

>bobf via HWKB.com wrote:
>
>> My misperception (if it is) is due to everyone dwelling on LOS
>> (including many posts in this forum) of which I have none (my horizon
>> goes from 10's of yards to less than a mile and there is vitually
>> nothing man-made in that area) I've heard of netstumbler many times
>> but never tried it. Guess now I will.

>My thinking tells me to try what people say is impossible.. Didn't Columbus
>think the world was round, and discover north america when all the people
>said he was crazy, the world was flat and he would fall off? :)

The three laws of prediction:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something
is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something
is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to
venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic.

-Arthur C. Clarke

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

"bobf via HWKB.com" <u24666@uwe> hath wroth:

>My misperception (if it is) is due to everyone dwelling on LOS (including
>many posts in this forum) of which I have none (my horizon goes from 10's of
>yards to less than a mile and there is vitually nothing man-made in that area)

LOS is important. If you manage to find a wireless connection that's
NOT in the LOS, chances are very high that you will have an unreliable
connection. It will work, but small changes in the path will cause
large changes in your signal strength. In addition, long paths run
into problems with edge diffraction, also known as the Fresnel Zone.
You can have optical line of sight, but that's not good enough. You
need more than optical clearance, especially at midpoint, or your
signal will take a turn in another direction when it hits an
obstruction in the Fresnel Zone.

>I've heard of netstumbler many times but never tried it. Guess now I will.

I suggest Kismet for Linux on a LiveCD as it shows more wireless
devices. Netstumbler will show access points, ad-hoc networks, and
wireless routers. Kismet adds client radios.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558