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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 04:17 PM
Warren Oates
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Default Macs problem wireless

I have a DGL 4300 on channel 11 at the front of the house, with an
Engenius EOC 1650, configured as an access point on channel 6 wired to
it at the back of the house (with a reserved DHCP address); same SSID
and security settings; all the firmwares are up-to-date.

The "seamless roaming" was work just fine until suddenly the 3 poor Mac
computers (new, 10.6.x) stopped connecting to the Internet from either
station. The signal is there, they assure me that they're connected to
the correct station, they're listed on my Wireless Client List(s), but
they can't connect to anything on the Internet. It almost looks like a
DNS problem of some kind.

Rebooting the two routers fixes the problem, but I don't know for how
long. Note that the PC (unknown config to me, probably Win 7) doesn't
miss a step here just keeps chugging away; and me a lifelong Mac user.

What should I be looking at to keep this from happening?

Background: We run a small B&B. Normally people use the wireless to read
their email in the bedrooms, or in the backyard, even, with the
Engenius. Suddenly we've got some guy from Toronto using the whole place
as some kind of command centre for a (ahem) "major event." He didn't
tell me this before he arrived, or I'd have run a wire and switch over
to that part of the house. He set up his "office" in the middle, pretty
much I guess right where the signals from the two routers overlap, so
maybe his fancy iMac got confused as to which ap to connect to. I dunno.

The wife and I, our computers (and the WD Live) are wired through the
DGL gigabit switch.
--
Why do we say Chicken of the Sea but not Tuna of the Farm?
-- Thomas Pynchon

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:22 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: Macs problem wireless

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:17:00 -0400, Warren Oates
<warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have a DGL 4300 on channel 11 at the front of the house,


Check the Dlink DGL4300 for the latest firmware. I don't know if
that's the culprit, but it's always a good thing to check.

>with an
>Engenius EOC 1650, configured as an access point on channel 6 wired to
>it at the back of the house (with a reserved DHCP address); same SSID
>and security settings; all the firmwares are up-to-date.
>
>The "seamless roaming" was work just fine until suddenly the 3 poor Mac
>computers (new, 10.6.x) stopped connecting to the Internet from either
>station. The signal is there, they assure me that they're connected to
>the correct station, they're listed on my Wireless Client List(s), but
>they can't connect to anything on the Internet. It almost looks like a
>DNS problem of some kind.


Forget DNS for now.
1. Can you ping the router IP address from one of the Mac computer?
2. Can you ping the ISP's gateway IP address?
3. Can you ping a well known and connected server on the internet by
IP address?
4. If yes, then try to view a web page by IP address instead of the
usual URL. If that works, then you certainly have a DNS problem.

>Rebooting the two routers fixes the problem, but I don't know for how
>long. Note that the PC (unknown config to me, probably Win 7) doesn't
>miss a step here just keeps chugging away; and me a lifelong Mac user.
>
>What should I be looking at to keep this from happening?


I'm not sure what diagnostics are available on the Dlink, but see if
you tell how many IP addresses are being used. All it takes is one
paranlid idiot, that constantly changes their wireless MAC address,
and therefore also changes the DHCP supplied IP address, to run the
router out of IP's. Similarly, all it takes is one machine, that has
a static IP mis-configured, where the machine IP just happens to be
set to the same as the router IP, and everything stops. There are
other dumb things that can be done, but I won't itemize here.

I've also had some weirdness convincing multiple Mac's to connect to
my WRT54G running DD-WRT. Some of them, just will not connect when I
use WPA2-AES, but work fine when set to WPA-TKIP. So, I have two
SSID's configured on my system. The 2nd one is named "Just-For-Macs".

>Background: We run a small B&B. Normally people use the wireless to read
>their email in the bedrooms, or in the backyard, even, with the
>Engenius. Suddenly we've got some guy from Toronto using the whole place
>as some kind of command centre for a (ahem) "major event." He didn't
>tell me this before he arrived, or I'd have run a wire and switch over
>to that part of the house. He set up his "office" in the middle, pretty
>much I guess right where the signals from the two routers overlap, so
>maybe his fancy iMac got confused as to which ap to connect to. I dunno.


Charge extra for the "major event". Tradition has it that such events
tend to slowly increase the bill, hoping that you won't notice, until
it's quite large at the end. They they just disappear.

It's not an iMac. It's probably an MacBook. Have him double click on
the wireless icon near the top right of the screen and look at the IP
settings. It should be DHCP, not "manual". Be sure to charge extra
for the tech support.

>The wife and I, our computers (and the WD Live) are wired through the
>DGL gigabit switch.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:30 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Macs problem wireless

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:22:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>I've also had some weirdness convincing multiple Mac's to connect to
>my WRT54G running DD-WRT. Some of them, just will not connect when I
>use WPA2-AES, but work fine when set to WPA-TKIP. So, I have two
>SSID's configured on my system. The 2nd one is named "Just-For-Macs".


More: If it really is an iBook G3 or G4, which is rather old, it's
officially limited to OS/X 10.3.9. My G3 iBook has a hell of time
connecting to some encrypted access points. My neighbor has two of
those weird lampshade Mac's, also running 10.3.9. Neither will
connect to his DIR655 wireless router, but will connect nicely to my
WHR-HP-G54. My guess(tm) is that there's some kind of compatibility
issue between Mac wireless and some routers, but at $30-$50 for a new
router, it's easier to replace than to fix.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:38 PM
Warren Oates
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Macs problem wireless

In article <7t8iu6pptiv91o0bfmr4t68svkkbug5qci@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Forget DNS for now.
> 1. Can you ping the router IP address from one of the Mac computer?
> 2. Can you ping the ISP's gateway IP address?
> 3. Can you ping a well known and connected server on the internet by
> IP address?
> 4. If yes, then try to view a web page by IP address instead of the
> usual URL. If that works, then you certainly have a DNS problem.


Thanks for the reply, Jeff.

They haven't complained since I rebooted the routers; I'll try all that
next time they have problems. I've got the Dlink set to use Google's
DNS, FWIw.

> I'm not sure what diagnostics are available on the Dlink, but see if
> you tell how many IP addresses are being used. All it takes is one
> paranlid idiot, that constantly changes their wireless MAC address,
> and therefore also changes the DHCP supplied IP address, to run the
> router out of IP's. Similarly, all it takes is one machine, that has
> a static IP mis-configured, where the machine IP just happens to be
> set to the same as the router IP, and everything stops. There are
> other dumb things that can be done, but I won't itemize here.




I don't think these guys are changing their MAC addresses; I doubt that
they even know what that means.

I went through the network settings, but only on one of their Macs (the
MacBook as it happens, brand new just-out-of-box, and the papers were in
order, as it were - no manual addresses set; I'll check out the other
Macs next time it happens; I'll start with his huge iMac. The Dlink
reports the right number of IP addresses for the machines in use
(including all of ours). The max is set for 99.

>
> I've also had some weirdness convincing multiple Mac's to connect to
> my WRT54G running DD-WRT. Some of them, just will not connect when I
> use WPA2-AES, but work fine when set to WPA-TKIP. So, I have two
> SSID's configured on my system. The 2nd one is named "Just-For-Macs".


That's interesting. The Dlink is set for "WPA Personal" and "auto"
TKIP/AES which has worked well up to now. The Engenius is set for
"WPA-PSK-Mixed" and "auto" which seems to be the same thing. I could
simplify it, I guess. I remember a couple of years ago Macs having
problems with AES. I like the idea of separate SSIDs for Macs. I'm not
sure how to do that, though. I'll dig into it.

> Charge extra for the "major event". Tradition has it that such events
> tend to slowly increase the bill, hoping that you won't notice, until
> it's quite large at the end. They they just disappear.


Yeah, I know. The jefe guy reminds me of all the reasons people from
Montreal dislike those from Toronto. Loud abrasive yuppies who love
jargon.

Thanks again. I muddle along with help from people like yourself.
--
Why do we say Chicken of the Sea but not Tuna of the Farm?
-- Thomas Pynchon

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:54 PM
Edward Theodore Gein
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Macs problem wireless

In article <ul9iu6ht2b3m3oa73ug769t48vhh2o8krl@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> More: If it really is an iBook G3 or G4, which is rather old, it's
> officially limited to OS/X 10.3.9. My G3 iBook has a hell of time
> connecting to some encrypted access points. My neighbor has two of
> those weird lampshade Mac's, also running 10.3.9. Neither will
> connect to his DIR655 wireless router, but will connect nicely to my
> WHR-HP-G54. My guess(tm) is that there's some kind of compatibility
> issue between Mac wireless and some routers, but at $30-$50 for a new
> router, it's easier to replace than to fix.


No, I may have written "iBook" instead of "iMac" -- it's a flashy new
27" iMac (so who uses 1440p?), and the others are newer MacBook Pros.
--
You made me this way *******
Imbeciles are easy; toss up ****, it attracts flies
I have an irony meter and YES i am legally allowed to own one

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2011, 04:17 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Macs problem wireless

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:41 -0400, Warren Oates
<warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:

>They haven't complained since I rebooted the routers; I'll try all that
>next time they have problems. I've got the Dlink set to use Google's
>DNS, FWIw.


Well, that may have fixed it. Some of my routers have been up for
months and can probably run indefinitely. Others require daily
reboots. I wish I could see a pattern, but it seems random.

Google DNS is fine. That's what I like to use. Your other choices
are OpenDNS and DNS provided by your ISP. I would not expect any of
these to cause problems. Where I get into problems is when I use the
DNS cache in the router. That's where the DNS points to the IP
address of the router, instead of to Google DNS, OpenDNS, etc. Some
routers seem to make a mess of it, so rather than find one that
doesn't, I just avoid the problem and setup the client computah to
point directly to the DNS server. However, that implies tinkering
with the MacBook settings, so I don't think that's going to be usable.

>I don't think these guys are changing their MAC addresses; I doubt that
>they even know what that means.


You'll be surprised. I've seen the stranges things in coffee shops.
One lady was told by her son to "hit this icon when done" every time
she signed off. Among other things, it cleared her cache, and wiped
any evidence of having been there, but also changed the MAC address.
She understood that it was to improve privacy, which I guess fits.
Other than that, she had no idea what she was doing. Your visitor may
have the same situation.

>I went through the network settings, but only on one of their Macs (the
>MacBook as it happens, brand new just-out-of-box, and the papers were in
>order, as it were - no manual addresses set;


So much for that theory. It's possible we're creating a major problem
when the only thing that was really wrong was a confused wireless
router.

If it's working, don't touch it (or at least save the config file so
you can undo the damage).

>I'll check out the other
>Macs next time it happens; I'll start with his huge iMac. The Dlink
>reports the right number of IP addresses for the machines in use
>(including all of ours). The max is set for 99.


You could probalby get away with increasing the DHCP address pool to
about 250.

>> I've also had some weirdness convincing multiple Mac's to connect to
>> my WRT54G running DD-WRT. Some of them, just will not connect when I
>> use WPA2-AES, but work fine when set to WPA-TKIP. So, I have two
>> SSID's configured on my system. The 2nd one is named "Just-For-Macs".

>
>That's interesting. The Dlink is set for "WPA Personal" and "auto"
>TKIP/AES which has worked well up to now. The Engenius is set for
>"WPA-PSK-Mixed" and "auto" which seems to be the same thing.


Auto sorta works but tends to be a bit slow to connect. I don't know
exactly how it works, but my guess is that if AES fails, it falls back
to TKIP. How long that will take is unknown. On the WRT54G router I
mentioned, the main SSID is set to WPA2-AES+TKIP, which is the same as
'auto". It doesn't work with several Mac's in the office complex. I
haven't had time to troubleshoot the problem, and nobody seems
interested here. So, rather than fight it, I just created a WPA-TKIP
SSID, and ignored the problem.

>I could
>simplify it, I guess. I remember a couple of years ago Macs having
>problems with AES. I like the idea of separate SSIDs for Macs. I'm not
>sure how to do that, though. I'll dig into it.


<http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=DGL-4300>
<ftp://ftp.dlink.com/Gateway/dgl4300/Manual/DGL-4300_manual_06292005.zip>
A quick skim of the specs and the manual didn't find any mention of
multiple SSID's.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Warren Oates
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Macs problem wireless

In article <n1bju69dc82vgtcqd26ni3nt517p6vhv62@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> A quick skim of the specs and the manual didn't find any mention of
> multiple SSID's.


Thanks for looking. I'll need a new router soon anyway. The Engenius has
a setting for VLAN profiles, which will probably give me a headache
figuring out, and probably isn't what I need.

Thanks for the help!
--
Why do we say Chicken of the Sea but not Tuna of the Farm?
-- Thomas Pynchon

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