Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
G. Mack wrote:
> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>
> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
> activities?
>
You bet! All P2P activities will point to your WAN IP address (assigned
to the router), which both you and your ISP know is contracted and paid
for by YOU! Only a moron would enable a personal wireless network
without security enabled. Only a moron would operate an unencrypted
wireless network AND pose your question.
Sorry, but 'moron' applies; nothing personal, just reality checking in.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
G. Mack <shihminlu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>
> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
> activities?
I don't think the question has been litigated yet. Of course, if you
become the first case, the fact that you asked here will make it harder
to deny that you were aware of the potential risks. Even if you were
ultimately excused from liability, the cost of defending yourself would
be vastly greater than the small inconvenience of using encryption on
your wireless network.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:41:30 -0700, Quaoar <quaoar@marcabfleet.com> wrote:
: G. Mack wrote:
: > I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
: > for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
: >
: > eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
: > activities?
:
: You bet! All P2P activities will point to your WAN IP address (assigned
: to the router), which both you and your ISP know is contracted and paid
: for by YOU! Only a moron would enable a personal wireless network
: without security enabled. Only a moron would operate an unencrypted
: wireless network AND pose your question.
:
: Sorry, but 'moron' applies; nothing personal, just reality checking in.
:
: Q
I suppose it would be churlish of me to ask you to support that diatribe with
a summary of your legal credentials. But, what the hell, I'll do it anyway.
BTW, I'll interpret silence as confirmation that you haven't any.
I'll agree that it isn't very smart not to protect your wireless network. But
inflammatory terms like "moron" should probably be reserved for real morons,
like George W. Bush.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
Quaoar wrote:
> G. Mack wrote:
>> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
>> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>>
>> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
>> activities?
>>
>
>
> You bet! All P2P activities will point to your WAN IP address (assigned
> to the router), which both you and your ISP know is contracted and paid
> for by YOU! Only a moron would enable a personal wireless network
> without security enabled. Only a moron would operate an unencrypted
> wireless network AND pose your question.
Why do I suspect the original poster is the "other people" and he wants to
know what trouble he will get into hijacking someone else's network.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
G. Mack wrote:
> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>
> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
> activities?
>
Potentially yes , although I doubt it is yet tested , I suggest you
learn to use some form of protection .
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
decaturtxcowboy wrote:
> Quaoar wrote:
>> G. Mack wrote:
>>> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
>>> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>>>
>>> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
>>> activities?
>>>
>>
>>
>> You bet! All P2P activities will point to your WAN IP address
>> (assigned to the router), which both you and your ISP know is
>> contracted and paid for by YOU! Only a moron would enable a personal
>> wireless network without security enabled. Only a moron would operate
>> an unencrypted wireless network AND pose your question.
>
> Why do I suspect the original poster is the "other people" and he wants
> to know what trouble he will get into hijacking someone else's network.
If it is than he needs to remember his mac will mark his machine for life.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
"G. Mack" <shihminlu@yahoo.com> hath wroth:
>I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
>for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>
>eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
>activities?
I really don't know. The ISP's are responsible under the DMCA
(Digital Millennium Copyright Act) for removing copyrighted material
from their servers, but are not responsible for transit violations
because they don't "monitor" the traffic contents. You could claim
that you're actually an ISP and use ignorance of content as an excuse.
Whether a jury of those lacking in sufficient intelligence to get out
of doing jury duty will believe such a defense is rather marginal.
This might help:
Don’t Shoot the Messenger!
A Discussion of ISP Liability
<http://cjlt.dal.ca/vol1_no2/pdfarticles/bernstein.pdf>
A better question is are the various wireless router manufacturers
liable for damages to your computer system if you operate the router
using the defaults, as you apparently are doing, and some hacker (like
me) dives into your computer and does evil and dastardly deeds. You
could again claim ignorance and contend that the manufacturers are
responsible for your inept and insecure product operation. This has
worked in many product liability cases, where the operation and setup
instructions were deemed insufficient to prevent a complete idiot from
doing damage to themselves.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
"G. Mack" <shihminlu@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1170464006.986721.112180@k78g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
> for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
>
> eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
> activities?
like most things - it depends, at a minimum on where you live since the laws
are going to vary by jurisdiction.
there are some practical issues which you should think about which may be
more worrying, depending on what you do with your PC and where you live:
is "no encryption" basically an invitation to use the system - ie you are
inviting an outsider to use your system and so giving permission?
Hint - an SSID like "free hotspot" may well be giving permission
(no idea what the answer is - definitely one for a lawyer)
how do you convince the police when they turn up and kick down the door that
it wasnt you?
After all if you do nothing there wont be any logs, so proving it may be
difficult.
And will the judge / law / etc care since accepting such an argument makes
such rules much less easy to enforce?
does your ISP care? ie they will turn off your account anyway, since all
they worry about is whether you broke their T&Cs?
if someone can get to your wireless LAN, did they get at your PC as well and
place a trojan etc so they now have your bank details, Paypal passwords and
so on?
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> A better question is are the various wireless router manufacturers
> liable for damages to your computer system if you operate the router
> using the defaults, as you apparently are doing, and some hacker (like
> me) dives into your computer and does evil and dastardly deeds. You
> could again claim ignorance and contend that the manufacturers are
> responsible for your inept and insecure product operation. This has
> worked in many product liability cases, where the operation and setup
> instructions were deemed insufficient to prevent a complete idiot from
> doing damage to themselves.
>
The main thing you will have to contend with is that they have a large
warchest and excessive powers because of the DMCA to find/accuse you.
Someone could assert any/all of those things but they would need to hire
an extra pricey lawyer to defend themselves.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
On 2 Feb 2007 16:53:27 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "G. Mack"
<shihminlu@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
>for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
Yes and no.
You have no obligation to secure your network, just as you've no
obligation to lock your car. Being stupid isn't against the law.
On the other hand, if someone takes your car and uses it in a robbery,
then you'll be the first people the cops visit. The evidence will
point to you - vehicle seen at the crime, blood in the back, etc.
You'll need to provide an alibi. No Alibi - problems...
Same applies to your network. Its an offense for someone else to use
it without your permission, no matter whether your secure it or not.
However if a crime is committed, your name will be on the rap sheet,
until you can provide an alibi .Thats _much_ harder with a computer
network since after all you don't even need to be in the country for
your computer to download stuff for you.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
Robert Coe wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:41:30 -0700, Quaoar <quaoar@marcabfleet.com> wrote:
> : G. Mack wrote:
> : > I have a wireless network and I don't enable encryption. Am I liable
> : > for other people who use my network w/o my permission?
> : >
> : > eg. Someone downloading copyrighted material or doing illegal
> : > activities?
> :
> : You bet! All P2P activities will point to your WAN IP address (assigned
> : to the router), which both you and your ISP know is contracted and paid
> : for by YOU! Only a moron would enable a personal wireless network
> : without security enabled. Only a moron would operate an unencrypted
> : wireless network AND pose your question.
> :
> : Sorry, but 'moron' applies; nothing personal, just reality checking in.
> :
> : Q
>
> I suppose it would be churlish of me to ask you to support that diatribe with
> a summary of your legal credentials. But, what the hell, I'll do it anyway.
> BTW, I'll interpret silence as confirmation that you haven't any.
>
> I'll agree that it isn't very smart not to protect your wireless network. But
> inflammatory terms like "moron" should probably be reserved for real morons,
> like George W. Bush.
>
> Bob
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
In article <mca9s2pmm6a69qlmglgv7r9dah3ub9a3d5@4ax.com>,
Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Yes and no.
> You have no obligation to secure your network, just as you've no
> obligation to lock your car. Being stupid isn't against the law.
In Ontario and Quebec, and I'm sure in a lot of jurisdictions, you _are_
legally obligated to lock your car. Cops occasionally go around shopping
center parking lots ticketing unlocked cars.
--
W. Oates
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
On Feb 3, 5:55 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> decaturtxcowboy wrote:
>
> > Why do I suspect the original poster is the "other people" and he wants
> > to know what trouble he will get into hijacking someone else's network.
>
> The same thought crossed my mind. A thoughtful person might be saying
> "how do I secure my network so I don't get in trouble..."
I got few old computers running 802.11B still. They work fine for
browsing the web, but wireless interfaces don't support encryption and
the computer is slow to enable s/w encryption. I wonder why I don't
hear about businesses that run hot spots going to court for liability
issues?
As far as hijacking someone else's network, that's pretty much trivial
and almost impossible for anyone to catch unless I actually access my
email or something.
Re: Personal liability for my wireless home network
On 5 Feb 2007 09:56:17 -0800, "G. Mack" <shihminlu@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1170698177.039098.196490@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>:
>On Feb 3, 5:55 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> decaturtxcowboy wrote:
>>
>> > Why do I suspect the original poster is the "other people" and he wants
>> > to know what trouble he will get into hijacking someone else's network.
>>
>> The same thought crossed my mind. A thoughtful person might be saying
>> "how do I secure my network so I don't get in trouble..."
>
>I got few old computers running 802.11B still. They work fine for
>browsing the web, but wireless interfaces don't support encryption and
>the computer is slow to enable s/w encryption. I wonder why I don't
>hear about businesses that run hot spots going to court for liability
>issues?
ISPs are now protected from liability by law.
>As far as hijacking someone else's network, that's pretty much trivial
WPA with a strong passphrase prevents hijacking.
>and almost impossible for anyone to catch unless I actually access my
>email or something.
Actually pretty easy to catch if the network is running intrusion
detection.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
Personal liability for my wireless home network 
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