PoE?

This is probably going to sound like stupid question #5000, but please
be nice :)

I'm wondering if you can use a "standard" four-port wired router to
power, say, WRT54G's, located outside a building, with Power over Ethernet.

For example: you have the wired router inside, on mains power, and then
you run the Cat5 to the PoE convertor, which then powers the WRT54G. And
then you have another WRT54G powered by the second port on your wired
router, and so on.

I'm looking to prevent losses via antenna cabling by mounting the AP
itself outside with pigtail, but I'm not too keen on leaving a PC on
24/7 (in an area with no aircon) to power it all.

Is this idea possible?

Thanks,
--
- dcf

David Fairbrother wrote:
> This is probably going to sound like stupid question #5000, but please
> be nice :)
>
> I'm wondering if you can use a "standard" four-port wired router to
> power, say, WRT54G's, located outside a building, with Power over Ethernet.

Do you know for a fact if the unused conductors inside the router are
not connected to ground or does the PoE float the router side of the
unused pairs?

If you don't know for sure, you could simply make up a patch cable from
the router to the PoE and cut off the white/blue and white/brown pairs
before inserting the cable into the crimp connectors. The white/orange
and white/green pairs are for data.

David Fairbrother wrote:
> This is probably going to sound like stupid question #5000, but please
> be nice :)
>
> I'm wondering if you can use a "standard" four-port wired router to
> power, say, WRT54G's, located outside a building, with Power over Ethernet.

No. At least, not with 'normal' routers. There's some specialist PoE
router which is designed deliberately to pump power out over the unused
pins in each JR45 socket, but the client would have to be similarly
designed (or use special cables) or else you'd fry it when you plugged
it in.

> For example: you have the wired router inside, on mains power, and then
> you run the Cat5 to the PoE convertor, which then powers the WRT54G. And
> then you have another WRT54G powered by the second port on your wired
> router, and so on.

Make yourself a PoE cable - its easy: separate out the 2 unused pairs
from the RJ45 jacks at each end of the cable. Take the outside router's
PSU, snip the cable between the wall wart and the plug that goes into
the router. At each end of your CAT5 cable, attach the spare pairs to
the +ve and -ve on the severed ends of the power cable (be careful to
keep the polarity right!). There you go.

David Fairbrother <schoolsarge@schoolsarge.org> hath wroth:

>This is probably going to sound like stupid question #5000, but please
>be nice :)

I'm pissed off because I just destroyed my truck engine. It's being
towed to the repair shop. I feel the need to snarl at someone. You'll
suffice. Please don't take it personally.

Go to:
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en>
Fill in "alt.internet.wireless" for the group name.
Then insert "WRT54G PoE" for search terms.
You'll get 60 hits, which might be worth reading before you post.

>I'm wondering if you can use a "standard" four-port wired router to
>power, say, WRT54G's, located outside a building, with Power over Ethernet.

Yes. I do this all the time and it's VERY easy. You don't even need
a fancy PoE adapter. Several versions of the WRT54G will run on
anything from about 4VDC to perhaps 18VDC. You can simply build an
extension cord for the standard 12V power supply to the power
connector on the WRT54G and it will work, no matter how awful the
voltage drop in the wiring.

However, there's a catch. Not all models will work. First, check if
your power supply is 12VDC or 5VDC. If 5VDC, it won't work. V1 and
some (not all) v1.1 routers will NOT work. Check your serial number
for the hardware version. V2, v3, v4, and GL routers WILL work. I've
never tried (or bothered with) v5, v6, v7, or v8 hardware.

>For example: you have the wired router inside, on mains power, and then
>you run the Cat5 to the PoE convertor, which then powers the WRT54G. And
>then you have another WRT54G powered by the second port on your wired
>router, and so on.

I don't think the necessary wires are connected that way on the
ethernet LAN ports. I can check when I get to the office, but that
will be in several days. Methinks it best to power each router
individually.

>I'm looking to prevent losses via antenna cabling by mounting the AP
>itself outside with pigtail, but I'm not too keen on leaving a PC on
>24/7 (in an area with no aircon) to power it all.

That's why it's done like that. I had it that way for a while on my
house. The neighbors also have their radios on the roof using
do-it-myself PoE adapters. It has some problems which you should
consider before attacking:
1. You need to repackage the WRT54G into something water proof.
2. The WRT54G does not like operating in an oven or refridgerator.
You may need to add some cooling or condensation protection.
3. There's nothing more disgusting than having to climb on the roof
in the middle of the night, in the rain, to fix the router. It's so
much easier if it were inside.

>Is this idea possible?

Yes. There are several sites that talk about repackaging the wrt54g.
I'll see if I can find them. The really nice article on Sveasoft's
site evaporated. I dunno about this one:
<http://www.2xlc.de/outdoor_wrt.html>
More:
<http://www.mikemcarthur.net/article.php?story=20051006023224178&mode=print>
<http://thekrome.blogspot.com/2005/11/all-weather-rugged-modular-enclosure.html>
Use Google to find more.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> David Fairbrother <schoolsarge@schoolsarge.org> hath wroth:
>
>> This is probably going to sound like stupid question #5000, but please
>> be nice :)
>
> I'm pissed off because I just destroyed my truck engine. It's being
> towed to the repair shop. I feel the need to snarl at someone. You'll
> suffice. Please don't take it personally.
>
> Go to:
> <http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en>
> Fill in "alt.internet.wireless" for the group name.
> Then insert "WRT54G PoE" for search terms.
> You'll get 60 hits, which might be worth reading before you post.
>
>> I'm wondering if you can use a "standard" four-port wired router to
>> power, say, WRT54G's, located outside a building, with Power over Ethernet.
>
> Yes. I do this all the time and it's VERY easy. You don't even need
> a fancy PoE adapter. Several versions of the WRT54G will run on
> anything from about 4VDC to perhaps 18VDC. You can simply build an
> extension cord for the standard 12V power supply to the power
> connector on the WRT54G and it will work, no matter how awful the
> voltage drop in the wiring.
>
> However, there's a catch. Not all models will work. First, check if
> your power supply is 12VDC or 5VDC. If 5VDC, it won't work. V1 and
> some (not all) v1.1 routers will NOT work. Check your serial number
> for the hardware version. V2, v3, v4, and GL routers WILL work. I've
> never tried (or bothered with) v5, v6, v7, or v8 hardware.
>
>> For example: you have the wired router inside, on mains power, and then
>> you run the Cat5 to the PoE convertor, which then powers the WRT54G. And
>> then you have another WRT54G powered by the second port on your wired
>> router, and so on.
>
> I don't think the necessary wires are connected that way on the
> ethernet LAN ports. I can check when I get to the office, but that
> will be in several days. Methinks it best to power each router
> individually.
>
>> I'm looking to prevent losses via antenna cabling by mounting the AP
>> itself outside with pigtail, but I'm not too keen on leaving a PC on
>> 24/7 (in an area with no aircon) to power it all.
>
> That's why it's done like that. I had it that way for a while on my
> house. The neighbors also have their radios on the roof using
> do-it-myself PoE adapters. It has some problems which you should
> consider before attacking:
> 1. You need to repackage the WRT54G into something water proof.
> 2. The WRT54G does not like operating in an oven or refridgerator.
> You may need to add some cooling or condensation protection.
> 3. There's nothing more disgusting than having to climb on the roof
> in the middle of the night, in the rain, to fix the router. It's so
> much easier if it were inside.
>
>> Is this idea possible?
>
> Yes. There are several sites that talk about repackaging the wrt54g.
> I'll see if I can find them. The really nice article on Sveasoft's
> site evaporated. I dunno about this one:
> <http://www.2xlc.de/outdoor_wrt.html>
> More:
> <http://www.mikemcarthur.net/article.php?story=20051006023224178&mode=print>
> <http://thekrome.blogspot.com/2005/11/all-weather-rugged-modular-enclosure.html>
> Use Google to find more.
>
>
>

Understood, thanks :)

--
- dcf

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> 3. There's nothing more disgusting than having to climb on the roof
> in the middle of the night, in the rain, to fix the router. It's so
> much easier if it were inside.

Having your ATV get stuck in the mud while replacing an AP in the sleet
at 3 AM.

Having to back down a dirt road in Drive as its to iced over.

DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> hath wroth:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> 3. There's nothing more disgusting than having to climb on the roof
>> in the middle of the night, in the rain, to fix the router. It's so
>> much easier if it were inside.

>Having your ATV get stuck in the mud while replacing an AP in the sleet
>at 3 AM.

Chuckle. No thanks. I have several $200/hr tower climbers with
insurance policies, families, and a well developed sense of
self-preservation. I won't go up a tower in the dark or inclement
weather, no matter what the emergency may be. The one WISP that has
hardware at the 80 ft level, has spare access points and antennas
installed on the tower for special occasions.

I have one wireless install at a customers house, where the dish is on
the roof, LMR-400 down to the side of the house, where it enters a
fiberglass enclosure with the wireless bridge inside. Power and CAT5
go through the wall into the house. The few times I've had to play
with the hardware (condensation problems), it was very easy, except
for the overly protective dog. No roof climbing required.

>Having to back down a dirt road in Drive as its to iced over.

Fortunately, we don't have much snow and ice on the left coast.
However, if you need confirmation of how dumb I can be, I left the
engine running to stay warm and snooze while sitting on top of about
6ft of snow. When the engine heat melted the snow underneath the
vehicle, I found myself sunk to the top of the hood and swimming in
about 2ft of very cold water. I got rescued the next day, but the
truck was unstuck only after 2 days of shoveling.

Anyway, the higher they are, the harder and more often they crash.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Chuckle. No thanks. I have several $200/hr tower climbers with
> insurance policies, families, and a well developed sense of
> self-preservation. I won't go up a tower in the dark or inclement
> weather, no matter what the emergency may be. The one WISP that has
> hardware at the 80 ft level, has spare access points and antennas
> installed on the tower for special occasions.

Thirty years ago, a Southwestern Bell 100 ft. mobilephone tower lost a
Decibel Products VHF 4-bay dipole antenna during an ice storm. I have
pictures of all the ice I chipped off the tower on the way up.

About the same time a state agency wanted me to to replace their
Motorola Micor tower mounted repeater at 500 feet. At 200 feet I
couldn't see the ground in the fog and the 3 inch dia. tower legs were
now 6 inch diam. with all the ice on them. I called it a day after
taking an hour to climb to just 200 feet.

DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> hath wroth:

>About the same time a state agency wanted me to to replace their
>Motorola Micor tower mounted repeater at 500 feet. At 200 feet I
>couldn't see the ground in the fog and the 3 inch dia. tower legs were
>now 6 inch diam. with all the ice on them. I called it a day after
>taking an hour to climb to just 200 feet.

Yuck. I have this built in altimeter that keeps me from going over
about 100ft.

In the late 1960's I got volunteered to join a competitor to the top
of Mt Wilson in Smog Angeles for a 4AM service call. Something had
caused just about all the commercial transmitters in the building
under the Channel 4(?) TV tower.
<http://www.fybush.com/sites/2004/site-041217.html>
<http://www.fybush.com/sites/2004/site-041224.html>
All the service companies and alphabet agencies all had service trucks
driving up to Mt Wilson. The common shop channels and ham repeaters
used by the service techs were all buzzing away. Something big had
happened.

When we arrived, most of the excitement was over. What happened was
that the TV transmitter baby sitter had forgotten to turn on the
de-icer on the TV antenna. By the time he noticed that the VSWR was
climbing, it was 4AM. By that time, there was a very large
accumulation of ice on the antenna. When the de-icer kicked in, it
caused blocks of ice the size of a desk to drop from the 500ft level.
The plywood roof that was over the commercial transmitter building
between the tower legs didn't have a chance. There were several
rather heavy duty Motorola racks that were partially squashed. Lots
of sheared Heliax and shredded cables. Some lunatics had arranged to
have someone play spotter looking for falling blocks. Between falls,
they would rush into the building, try to rescue something, and run
out of the building as fast as possible. I wasn't suicidal and did my
best to help by lighting up the tower with a landing light. The
building was eventually replaced with a far more substantial concrete
and steel structure.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558