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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 09:13 AM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Default Random Network drop out issue

Hi Guys,

I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.

My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
behind a router its not a real world IP.

The problem is that rnadomly I loose my connection to the internet. I
still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.

Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
connection everything is fine again.

This can happen a few times a day. The service provider swears its
nothing at his end, and the fact that I have to repair to fix it kinda
supports this theory. I dont know much about the gear but that its
Trango. I am on XP SP2 with the latest IE7.

Anyone able to shed any light pease?

Thanks

-AL


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 02:15 PM
Elmo
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
> high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
> client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.
>
> My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
> behind a router it's not a real-world IP.
>
> The problem is that randomly I lose my connection to the internet. I
> still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.
>
> Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
> connection everything is fine again.
>
> This can happen a few times a day. The service provider swears it's
> nothing at his end, and the fact that I have to repair to fix it kinda
> supports this theory. I don't know much about the gear but that it's
> Trango. I am on XP SP2 with the latest IE7.
>
> Anyone able to shed any light pease?


Open the Device Manager, locate the Ethernet card, open Properties and
turn off the power option to "Allow the computer to turn off this device
to save power".

--
Joe =o)

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 02:37 PM
Malke
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
> high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
> client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.
>
> My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
> behind a router its not a real world IP.
>
> The problem is that rnadomly I loose my connection to the internet. I
> still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.
>
> Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
> connection everything is fine again.
>
> This can happen a few times a day. The service provider swears its
> nothing at his end, and the fact that I have to repair to fix it kinda
> supports this theory. I dont know much about the gear but that its
> Trango. I am on XP SP2 with the latest IE7.


The first thing to try is to disable power management on your computer's
network adapter. Go to Control Panel>System>Hardware>Device Manager. Expand
the network devices category and find your ethernet adapter. Double-click
it to get its Properties. Click on the Power Management tab and uncheck the
box that says "allow Windows to turn off this device when not in use". See
if that helps and if it does not, then please post back with a bit more
detail about your particular computer's hardware and its virus/malware
status.

Malke
--
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic!"
MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 05:28 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

BigAl.NZ@gmail.com hath wroth:

>I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
>high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
>client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.
>
>My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
>behind a router its not a real world IP.


Does it also have a statically defined gateway IP?

Are the DNS servers listed or are they set to obtain their addresses
from the ISP router? (This is important. Check the settings).

>The problem is that rnadomly I loose my connection to the internet. I
>still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.


The connection you're seeing in the system tray is the ethernet
connection, not the wireless connection. You could block the wireless
signal completely and it will still show that you're plugged into the
Trango wireless bridge.

>Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
>connection everything is fine again.


Impossible. All the you're doing is repairing the ethernet
connection. Others have suggested checking the power save setting. My
guess(tm) is that you won't find a "wireless" connection in the:
Control Panel -> Network
window and that the ethernet device on your unspecified model computer
does not have a power save feature.

However, the question remains, why does it work for you. My guess is
that you can get the exact same effect by simply unplugging the
ethernet cable, waiting a few seconds, and plugging it back in. Does
this also fix the problem?

>This can happen a few times a day.
>The service provider swears its nothing at his end,


- How many times is "a few"? Numbers please.

- Is there any pattern to the outages? For example, does it only
happen during normal eating times, when microwave ovens tend to be
operating? Is it different on weekends?

- Are you using the computer when it dies, or have you left it idle
for a long while?

- You may have lost the internet, but have you checked if you've lost
your ISP's gateway? Determine the gateway IP address by running:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
ipconfig
Then try pinging the gateway when it's working, and when it dies:
ping ip_address_of_gateway
If it does NOT work when it goes dead, you have lost your wireless
connection to the WISP.

- Does it *REQUIRE* that the connection be repaired, or does it fix
itself if you wait long enough? How long? Use:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
ping -t ip_address_of_gateway
and watch the error messages. When normal results return, it's back
to working. If the downtime is approximately that of cooking a
microwave dinner, I think we have the culprit. There also ping tools
which will help run this test continuously:
<http://www.tools4ever.com/products/free/freeping/>

>and the fact that I have to repair to fix it kinda
>supports this theory.


No, it doesn't. For example, if the WISP's DNS servers were screwed
up and not responding, it would appear that you can't surf the
internet, while all that's happening is that you can't resolve the
domain names into IP addresses. Try obtaining the IP address of a
popular web site and using that instead of the name to see what
happens when it does down. To get the IP address, run something like:
ping www.yahoo.com
then try the resultant IP address in the form:
http://66.94.234.13
If your wireless ISP is using some kind of DNS load balancing scheme,
or you have one of the three possible DNS servers typed in wrong, you
might see some problems.

It may also be something as simple as the time delay required to
repair the connection if the outages are fairly short in duration.

>I dont know much about the gear but that its
>Trango. I am on XP SP2 with the latest IE7.


Trango has a support forum. I suggest you ask about signal strength
and interference problems.
<http://www.trangobroadband.com/forum/default.aspx>
If the diagnostics returns that you have a marginal signal to your
WISP, you may need to tinker with the antenna, or do some
repositioning to avoid interference.

>Anyone able to shed any light pease?


If shedding light is anything like shedding fur on a dawg, I don't
think you will want it.

My guess(tm) is that if you're absolutely sure your XP setup is
correct, that your signal is good and strong, and that you have line
of sight to your WISP, I would then look into interference problems. A
"few" times per day sounds like a microwave oven. It does not need to
be yours as anything along the line of sight (and beyond) to the ISP
will cause problems. See the FAQ at:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi#Interference>
for a laundry list of possible culprits.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 06:57 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Gee - Thanks for all the great suggestions so far!!

I have turned off power management for the adapter as instructed, but
as i can not re[licate the problem at will, I will just have to wait
and see.

> Does it also have a statically defined gateway IP?


Yes

> Are the DNS servers listed or are they set to obtain their addresses
> from the ISP router? (This is important. Check the settings).


They are listed.

> >Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
> >connection everything is fine again.

>
> Impossible. All the you're doing is repairing the ethernet
> connection. Others have suggested checking the power save setting. My
> guess(tm) is that you won't find a "wireless" connection in the:
> Control Panel -> Network
> window and that the ethernet device on your unspecified model computer
> does not have a power save feature.


I am running an Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe motherboard with a AMD Athlon64
2.2Ghz 3500+ chip. The twin onboard (motherboard) ethernet adapters are
Marvel Yukon 88E8053 Gigabit Ethernet Controllers.

Under power management for these adapters I have unchecked the setting
"Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power"

>
> However, the question remains, why does it work for you. My guess is
> that you can get the exact same effect by simply unplugging the
> ethernet cable, waiting a few seconds, and plugging it back in. Does
> this also fix the problem?


Will try that next time it does it.

>
> >This can happen a few times a day.
> >The service provider swears its nothing at his end,

>
> - How many times is "a few"? Numbers please.


It varies, but the average would be twice.

>
> - Is there any pattern to the outages? For example, does it only
> happen during normal eating times, when microwave ovens tend to be
> operating? Is it different on weekends?


Thats a interesting point - because it has been happening in the
mornings, but also happens overnight (I am not on my computer but my
MSN is logged out suggesting a loss of connectivity)

> - Are you using the computer when it dies, or have you left it idle
> for a long while?


It has happened when I am using it, and I am pretty sure it has also
happened when i am not.

>
> - You may have lost the internet, but have you checked if you've lost
> your ISP's gateway? Determine the gateway IP address by running:
> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
> ipconfig
> Then try pinging the gateway when it's working, and when it dies:
> ping ip_address_of_gateway
> If it does NOT work when it goes dead, you have lost your wireless
> connection to the WISP.


Good suggestion.

> - Does it *REQUIRE* that the connection be repaired, or does it fix
> itself if you wait long enough? How long? Use:
> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
> ping -t ip_address_of_gateway
> and watch the error messages. When normal results return, it's back
> to working. If the downtime is approximately that of cooking a
> microwave dinner, I think we have the culprit. There also ping tools
> which will help run this test continuously:
> <http://www.tools4ever.com/products/free/freeping/>


Another good suggestion - will try that too.

> It may also be something as simple as the time delay required to
> repair the connection if the outages are fairly short in duration.


Someone else mentioned Malware/Virus? I thought about that too - I have
had my HiJackThis log checked over at CastleCops- and I am clean. Also
running Ewido and Kaspersky - all clean.

Cheers

-Al


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 07:03 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Just after I posted my last message the connection dropped. So I can
now offer the following info:

When the connection first dropped I did a ping to the gateway within
about 1 min. No ping.

Then about 30 seconds of the first set of pings I pinged the gateway
again and got a return, but no connection to the internet.

Unplugging and plugging the ethernet cable back in had the same result
as repair - it allowed me to connect to the internet again.

Cheers

-Al


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On 2 Jan 2007 11:03:19 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

>Just after I posted my last message the connection dropped. So I can
>now offer the following info:
>
>When the connection first dropped I did a ping to the gateway within
>about 1 min. No ping.
>
>Then about 30 seconds of the first set of pings I pinged the gateway
>again and got a return, but no connection to the internet.


The gateway connection recovered but not the internet? Is this
wireless contrivance part of a mesh network or does your WISP use a
store and forward system for their access points? Having a radio
disappear from a mesh network will cause the network to re-route
packets around the node. That could explain why it doesn't recover
immediately.

If I really stretch my imagination, it's possible that the gateway
might be alive, but no routing if there were some manner of exotic
mesh routing protocol operating on this system. However, that's
usually not the case. Does this wireless system include some manner
of "monitor" program that is running on your computer that sends "keep
alive" packets to the WISP?

My overactive imagination can also contrive a situation where the
default route changes in response to RIP2 updates from the ISP. That
would give you a proper ping return from the gateway, but would route
all your packets to nowhere in particular. Run:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
route print
before and after the connection drops and note the default route
listed at the bottom.

>Unplugging and plugging the ethernet cable back in had the same result
>as repair - it allowed me to connect to the internet again.


Ok, that's a good clue. Unplugging the ethernet connection usually
causes the ethernet connection to reset and to obtain a new DHCP
assigned IP address when plugged back in. However, you state that you
have static IP address, gateway, and DNS servers, so that's not what's
happening. Are you sure that they're static?

It's possible that the Trango radio is part of the problem. If it has
an IP address, try to ping it. If your lucky, it's one IP address
above or below your assigned IP address. However, it may not be
easily accessible from your Windoze box. Try running:
arp -a
and see if you can identify the box. Trango starts with:
00-01-DE-xx-xx-xx

My crystal ball still says it's interference. However, the question
is why doesn't it recover by itself. It should recover, but without
detailed knowledge of the wireless topology, I can only speculate.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 08:50 AM
Drake
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue


<BigAl.NZ@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167764599.360694.130790@48g2000cwx.googlegro ups.com...
> Just after I posted my last message the connection dropped. So I can
> now offer the following info:
>
> When the connection first dropped I did a ping to the gateway within
> about 1 min. No ping.
>
> Then about 30 seconds of the first set of pings I pinged the gateway
> again and got a return, but no connection to the internet.
>
> Unplugging and plugging the ethernet cable back in had the same result
> as repair - it allowed me to connect to the internet again.
>

Hopefully you are using high quality CAT6 cable?




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 02:06 PM
Bill Kearney
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

> I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
> high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
> client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.


Explain what equipment. Make, model and exact ways it's all wired together.

> My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
> behind a router its not a real world IP.


What static IP? Presumably it's also got static DNS addresses too?

> The problem is that rnadomly I loose my connection to the internet. I
> still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.


Spell it 'lose'.

> Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
> connection everything is fine again.


Repair? With a static IP?

When it's working, try opening a cmd prompt and typing "ipconfig /all" and
post the results here. Then, when it dies, use the same command and see if
there's *any* differences.

When using the ping command, does it always return a successful ping to the
gateway? Even before doing a repair or disconnect/reconnect of the ethernet
cable from the PC to the router?

When it's working, what lights are lit on the router *and* on the back of
the PC? Does your network card in the PC have lights for connection, duplex
and speed (often color-coded)?

I'm left wondering if the wireless device isn't doing something to detect
that the PC is connected and altering the wireless link. As in, it drops
the internet link based on it thinking the PC isn't there. If that's the
case then either your PC is "doing something" that confuses the router or
the router itself is misconfigured or just plain defective.

-Bill Kearney


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 02:06 PM
Bill Kearney
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue


> > Unplugging and plugging the ethernet cable back in had the same result
> > as repair - it allowed me to connect to the internet again.
> >

> Hopefully you are using high quality CAT6 cable?


For the connection from a PC to a router like this that's a useless
suggestion. Plain old CAT5 would work fine. Presuming it's a good cable of
course.



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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 05:26 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Ok guys, an update,

When I do the repair I have discovered what is fixing the problem, it
is the clearing of the arp cache.

I know this because I did a manual clear of the arp cache with "arp -d
*" and that fixed it.

I dont know much about arp but hopefully someone here can make some
conclusions about this?

> Explain what equipment. Make, model and exact ways it's all wired together.


Its a Trango Fox 5310 Subscriber Unit. The ethernet cable goes from the
back of the PC into a Power over Ethernet box, out of there and up to
the roof where the Trango is. No routers at my end.

>
> > My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
> > behind a router its not a real world IP.

>
> What static IP? Presumably it's also got static DNS addresses too?


Yep - take a look at a screenshot here:
http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss1nr5.jpg


> Repair? With a static IP?


Yep.

>
> When it's working, try opening a cmd prompt and typing "ipconfig /all" and
> post the results here. Then, when it dies, use the same command and see if
> there's *any* differences.


Ok, here it is when its working:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C:\Documents and Settings\Al>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : al-60c9aaef8b2d
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Marvell Yukon 88E8053 PCI-E
Gigabit
Ethernet Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-17-31-38-4E-0D
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.1
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.254
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.254
210.55.12.1

Ethernet adapter Bluetooth Network Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Bluetooth Device (Personal
Area Netw
ork)
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-80-98-44-0B-1D
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






>
> When using the ping command, does it always return a successful ping to the
> gateway? Even before doing a repair or disconnect/reconnect of the ethernet
> cable from the PC to the router?


It always sends a successful ping to the gateway when working
(occasionaly 1% loss)

I did try to ping the gateway when the connection when down, and on my
second attempt I got a return, initally I thought it was just the
connection between me the gateway being fixed, but now I think the
whole connection was repaired. Sometimes it fixes itself after a few
minutes - sometimes it takes longer. Have not quite worked this out
exactely yet.

>
> When it's working, what lights are lit on the router *and* on the back of
> the PC? Does your network card in the PC have lights for connection, duplex
> and speed (often color-coded)?


No router involved here - will check the PC.

>
> I'm left wondering if the wireless device isn't doing something to detect
> that the PC is connected and altering the wireless link. As in, it drops
> the internet link based on it thinking the PC isn't there. If that's the
> case then either your PC is "doing something" that confuses the router or
> the router itself is misconfigured or just plain defective.
>
> -Bill Kearney



Thanks Bill - will post the ipconfig /all when its not working....

-Al


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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 05:39 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

PS:

here is my arp -a result before a dropout:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C:\Documents and Settings\Al>arp -a

Interface: 192.168.252.1 --- 0x2
Internet Address Physical Address Type
192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd dynamic

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just waiting for a dropout now......

-Al


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 06:07 PM
glen herrmannsfeldt
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet Bill Kearney <wkearney-99@hot-mail-com> wrote:

> For the connection from a PC to a router like this that's a useless
> suggestion. Plain old CAT5 would work fine. Presuming it's a good cable of
> course.


I agree, the cable quality doesn't matter much for a short cable,
but I have had some bad cables. Mostly, I believe, the contact
between the cable and the connector, even with commercial cables.

-- glen

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 06:13 PM
glen herrmannsfeldt
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

> When I do the repair I have discovered what is fixing the problem, it
> is the clearing of the arp cache.


In that case, the one answer is another host trying to come
online with the same IP address. The router will then put that
host in its arp table, disconnecting you. Clearing the arp cache
will usually cause your host to arp, adding it to the router arp
table.

One I did see once on a machine with both IP and Appletalk
(ethertalk) was arp replies in both ethernet and SNAP format,
causing the router to switch to SNAP format IP that the host
would then ignore. A ping to any host not in the arp table
would cause a new arp request, and the router would then stop
sending SNAP encapsulated data. That is not likely to be
your problem, though.

-- glen

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 07:02 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Ok,

Here ya go, I just lost the connection, and after I lost the
connection, but before I repaired it this is what I got from IPCONFIG
/ALL and ARP -a

C:\Documents and Settings\Al>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : al-60c9aaef8b2d
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Marvell Yukon 88E8053 PCI-E
Gigabit
Ethernet Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-17-31-38-4E-0D
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.1
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.254
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.252.254
210.55.12.1

Ethernet adapter Bluetooth Network Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Bluetooth Device (Personal
Area Netw
ork)
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-80-98-44-0B-1D

C:\Documents and Settings\Al>arp -a

Interface: 192.168.252.1 --- 0x2
Internet Address Physical Address Type
192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd dynamic

C:\Documents and Settings\Al>arp -d *

HTH?

-Al


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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 07:04 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

One more thing I had a packet sniffer, Ethereal running when it went
down and came back up - not sure if the logs from this will help?

-Al


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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 07:35 PM
glen herrmannsfeldt
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Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:
> One more thing I had a packet sniffer, Ethereal running when it went
> down and came back up - not sure if the logs from this will help?


It might.

Better would be the results of arp -a on the router machine
before and after. Otherwise, if there are any arp packets just
before it dies in the ethereal output, post them.

-- glen

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 10:13 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:06:24 -0500, "Bill Kearney"
<wkearney-99@hot-mail-com> wrote:

>> > Unplugging and plugging the ethernet cable back in had the same result
>> > as repair - it allowed me to connect to the internet again.
>> >

>> Hopefully you are using high quality CAT6 cable?

>
>For the connection from a PC to a router like this that's a useless
>suggestion. Plain old CAT5 would work fine. Presuming it's a good cable of
>course.


Agreed. CAT6 is overkill. What limits high speeds is crosstalk (NEXT
and FEXT). For short lengths, such crosstalk is negligible and almost
any type of wire or cable will work.

All of the bad ethernet cables in my palatial office and trucker were
made by me. There should be a clue here, but I'll pretend to ignore
it. Most are visibly defective with:
- creative wiring
- split pairs
- bad crimp
- wrong type of RJ-45 plug
- mangled plastic seperators between pins
- partial crimp
being the main culprits. In general, commercial cables are good
enough.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 10:43 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On 3 Jan 2007 09:26:27 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

>When I do the repair I have discovered what is fixing the problem, it
>is the clearing of the arp cache.
>
>I know this because I did a manual clear of the arp cache with "arp -d
>*" and that fixed it.
>
>I dont know much about arp but hopefully someone here can make some
>conclusions about this?


Weird. You didn't answer my question as to whether your wireless ISP
is part of a mesh network. If so, it would make sense that the
destination gateway might change depending on the topology of the
moment. I'll keep things simple and avoid this possibility.

The obvious question is whether the MAC address of the gateway
(192.168.252.254) changes before it disconnects, and after it
recovers. Try it before and after and see if there's a change. If it
does change, well then you'll need to do something to forcibly expire
the arp cache and ping the gateway, which should renew the entry.

However, if it doesn't change, then try this experiment. Run:
arp -s 192.168.252.254 xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx
to permanently set the MAC address of the gateway. If this fixes it,
my guess(tm) is that either your ethernet driver or IP stack on your
computah is having a bad day. It's suppose to send an ARP request to
the gateway immediately after it detects a connection. It's not.

I just tried to simulate your problem. I have an ancient DWL-900AP+
setup in client mode connected to the neighbors WRT54G. Encryption is
off. When I disconnect the antenna to simulate a connection loss, it
takes about 2 minutes for XP to recognize that the connection is gone.
Various services (AIM, Skype, PPTP VPN) fail prior to XP announcing a
lost connection.

When I put the antenna back and try to ping the neighbors router, it
takes about 20 seconds to re-establish the connection. Yours
apparently takes either much longer or never succeeds. I just did it
again, but this time, I had a continuously running FPING session
running. The reconnection was about 5 seconds. This is the way it
should work.

>> Explain what equipment. Make, model and exact ways it's all wired together.

>
>Its a Trango Fox 5310 Subscriber Unit. The ethernet cable goes from the
>back of the PC into a Power over Ethernet box, out of there and up to
>the roof where the Trango is. No routers at my end.


Nice:
<http://www.trangobroadband.com/products/fox5310_international.shtml>
5.3GHz. No mesh network. No microwave oven interference. Do you
have line of sight? How far away is the central access point.

>Yep - take a look at a screenshot here:
>http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss1nr5.jpg


Perfect. No problems with the IP setup. I can't seem to get the
secondary DNS server to respond to my DNS queries, but it might be
firewalled to accept queries only from the WISP's network.
nslookup
Default Server: dns1.snfcca.sbcglobal.net
Address: 206.13.28.12

> server 201.55.12.1

Default Server: [201.55.12.1]
Address: 201.55.12.1

> www.cruzio.com

Server: [201.55.12.1]
Address: 201.55.12.1

DNS request timed out.
timeout was 2 seconds.
DNS request timed out.
timeout was 2 seconds.
*** Request to [201.55.12.1] timed-out

This is probably unrelated to the current problem, but you should
check if your secondary DNS server is functional from your end.

>It always sends a successful ping to the gateway when working
>(occasionaly 1% loss)


Are the ping times (latency in msec) constant? In other words, do
they always show the same number of msec, or do they vary all over the
place? If they vary, it's a sign of interference or possibly wireless
congestion. The extra delays are signs of packet retransmissions.
Unfortunately, I can't tell where the gateway IP is located in your
WISP's network, so it's difficult to isolate just your traffic
results.

>I did try to ping the gateway when the connection when down, and on my
>second attempt I got a return, initally I thought it was just the
>connection between me the gateway being fixed, but now I think the
>whole connection was repaired. Sometimes it fixes itself after a few
>minutes - sometimes it takes longer. Have not quite worked this out
>exactely yet.


It requires traffic to fix itself. If the arp cache is being flushed,
it won't repopulate the ARP cache untill it sends something to the
gateway. What I find interesting is that the gateway appears to be
functional, but nothing beyond it. Try using traceroute (Windoze
tracert) to something else is going down along the path. It might be
the backhaul between the central access point and where it hits a
wired connection.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2007, 10:54 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On 3 Jan 2007 11:02:24 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

>C:\Documents and Settings\Al>arp -a
>
>Interface: 192.168.252.1 --- 0x2
> Internet Address Physical Address Type
> 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd dynamic


00-02-A5-xx-xx-xx is owned by Compaq Computahs:
<http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/?string=00%3A02%3Aa5>
Well, that makes sense as the gateway is also a DNS server.

From your previous posting, the arp -a results are identical before
and after the disconnect. If you preload the ARP cache with:

arp -s 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd

methinks I can eliminate the arp cache as a probable culprit and move
onward to whatever is preventing the connection from recovering
gracefully. As far as I can tell, your system is operating normally
except in one respect. It does not recover quickly or gracefully from
a disconnect. I'm still not sure why, but in every other respect, it
functions exactly like my quick test previously mentioned.

Also, I think you would do better to determine (or guess) why the
system is showing disconnects in the first place. My guess(tm) is
some obstructions in the path (trees, cars, excessive path) or
interference from other users of this WISP system.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 12:50 AM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for all your help to date. I have issued the command:

arp -s 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd


Will this command persist over a reboot or should i reissue it if I
reboot?

Cheers

-Al

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2007 11:02:24 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >C:\Documents and Settings\Al>arp -a
> >
> >Interface: 192.168.252.1 --- 0x2
> > Internet Address Physical Address Type
> > 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd dynamic

>
> 00-02-A5-xx-xx-xx is owned by Compaq Computahs:
> <http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/?string=00%3A02%3Aa5>
> Well, that makes sense as the gateway is also a DNS server.
>
> From your previous posting, the arp -a results are identical before
> and after the disconnect. If you preload the ARP cache with:
>
> arp -s 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd
>
> methinks I can eliminate the arp cache as a probable culprit and move
> onward to whatever is preventing the connection from recovering
> gracefully. As far as I can tell, your system is operating normally
> except in one respect. It does not recover quickly or gracefully from
> a disconnect. I'm still not sure why, but in every other respect, it
> functions exactly like my quick test previously mentioned.
>
> Also, I think you would do better to determine (or guess) why the
> system is showing disconnects in the first place. My guess(tm) is
> some obstructions in the path (trees, cars, excessive path) or
> interference from other users of this WISP system.
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
> # http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS



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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 03:51 AM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On 3 Jan 2007 16:50:27 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

>Thanks for all your help to date.


We're not done yet. I wanna know what's causing the reconnection
problem. (Curiosity kills cats and hacks).

>I have issued the command:
>arp -s 192.168.252.254 00-02-a5-02-44-bd
>Will this command persist over a reboot or should i reissue it if I
>reboot?


Well, that was easy enough to try. No, it doesn't persist through a
reboot.

Make a batch file with the above arp -s command line in it.
Drop it into the:

c:\Documents and Settings\your_login\Start Menu\Programs\Startup\

directory. If you have more than one user of the machine, instead of
the your_login directory use the:

c:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Start Menu\Programs\Startup\

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 04:18 AM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

So far so good - but will have to wait at least another 24 hours to be
certain....

-Al


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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 04:26 AM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

On 3 Jan 2007 20:18:46 -0800, BigAl.NZ@gmail.com wrote:

>So far so good - but will have to wait at least another 24 hours to be
>certain....


Bah. I want instant gratification.

Try running FreePing to both your gateway and some distant server to
see if they're up or down.
<http://www.tools4ever.com/products/free/freeping/>
Make sure your computer doesn't go standby, hibernate, or comatose.
Keep it running overnight. You can edit each entry to set how often
it pings. The default is every 30 seconds. By morning, you should
have a clue as to how well your connection is running.





--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 05:52 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Ok here we go,

I setup two cmd windows with a ping every 30 seconds. The first window
pinged my dns gateway, the second www.google.com.

The results are:

DNS SERVER:
Pinging 192.168.252.254 with 32 bytes of data every 30000 ms:

On 5 seperate occasions I get the following set of errors:
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
Too few bytes from 66.102.7.99

WWW.GOOGLE.COM
Pinging www.l.google.com [66.102.7.99] with 32 bytes of data every
30000 ms:

On 4 seperate occasions I get the following set of errors:
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
Too few bytes from 192.168.252.254



What interesting is:
(a) I had the ping windows output a time stamp, and the errors were
happening at different times.
(b) Notice how it complains about too few bytes from the Google window
in the DNS window and visa versa?
(c) There does not appear to be any pattern to how often/when this
happens.


HTH?

Cheers

-Al


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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 05:56 PM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

One more thing:

00:00:04 : Reply[115] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=9.0 ms TTL=64
00:00:34 : Reply[116] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=191.6 ms
TTL=64
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
Too few bytes from 66.102.7.99
00:01:39 : Reply[118] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=3.2 ms TTL=64
00:02:09 : Reply[119] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=11.8 ms
TTL=64
00:02:39 : Reply[120] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=37.9 ms
TTL=64

>From the time stamps you can see its only missing one ping per 3 error

lines, ie above at 00:01:04

-Al


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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 07:00 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

BigAl.NZ@gmail.com hath wroth:

>One more thing:
>
>00:00:04 : Reply[115] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=9.0 ms TTL=64
>00:00:34 : Reply[116] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=191.6 msTTL=64
>recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
>did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
>connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
>recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
>did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
>connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
>recvfrom() - A connection attempt failed because the connected party
>did not properly respond after a period of time, or established
>connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
>Too few bytes from 66.102.7.99
>00:01:39 : Reply[118] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=3.2 ms TTL=64
>00:02:09 : Reply[119] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=11.8 ms
>TTL=64
>00:02:39 : Reply[120] from 192.168.252.254: bytes=32 time=37.9 ms
>TTL=64
>
>>From the time stamps you can see its only missing one ping per 3 error

>lines, ie above at 00:01:04


Retch. You may have radio link problems.

What is the smallest number your get for the ping time to your ISP's
gateway/DNS server?

You can deduce quite a bit from ping results. From the above mess, I
would think that 3.2msec is about normal for two hops to a central
access point. You should get about 1-2 msec per hop. It might also
be just one hop to the gateway, but I can't tell without seeing some
ping history. Such huge variations in latency times is usually a sure
sign of interference or a marginal path. The problem is that it's
obviously a shared system and the other users may be causing some (not
all) of the variations in latency. Also, if it's a two hop system
(with a wireless backhaul to the ISP from the central AP), traffic
from other users on the backhaul will cause substantial variations in
latency.

However, the wide variations seem to indicate that the problem is
chronic. Even with traffic on the backhaul, you should not see any
lost packets, and certainly not 30:1 variations in latency. It
appeasrs that the latency variations are caused by packet loss, and
not traffic. I think you have a radio path or interference problem.
Did you tell your ISP that you're getting such awful results for ping
times?

Try to guess when the system is lightly used and run the ping test
again. Use 1 second intervals and small packets. That should be the
best case. You should see a series of 3msec (or less) results.
Interference tends to show up as large latency values or lost packets,
but only for short periods. There should be long periods in between
where the latency is constant and a low value. However, if you have a
marginal radio path, you'll see constant packet loss, and continuous
variations in latency. Again, it's difficult to tell without known
the network topology and without knowing how the backhaul is handled.

If possible, try to get the ISP to give you the IP address of the
central access point. If you can ping this, instead of the gateway,
then you can eliminate the backhaul traffic from the test. If they
won't release the IP address (or it's on a different IP net), then try
to get the MAC address and just assign yourself an unused IP address.
You should be able to get the MAC address from Ethereal (WireShark)
sniffing. Look for a MAC address of 00-13-4F-xx-xx-xx for Tranzeo.

Methinks you're trying to fix the symptoms instead of fixing the cause
of the problem. My guess(tm) is that you have lousy radio path or
interference. The interference is probably from other users on the
WISP's system. Ask them if they have any users that are along the
line of sight, but are beyond the central access point, that might
have their Tranzeo radio pointed directly at your radio. Never mind
users that are to the side, just the ones along the line of sight. The
reason you're having such a difficult time reconnecting after a loss
of connectivity is that the error rate is so high, that the
reconnection sequence probably gives up after a few failed attempts.

Tranzeo also has some diagnostics for the radio that will display
signal strength, signal to noise ratio, and data error rate. These
are needed to determine if you have a decent radio path. Your WISP
should be able to point you to these. It may be something as simple
as moving your rooftop radio, or just aiming it better. You'll need
these diagnostic tools that display your progress in order to aim the
unit.

Gotta run. Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2007, 07:22 PM
Jack \(MVP-Networking\).
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Hi
It is an Onboard NIC?
If yes, find $5, get a PCI NIC, and disable the Onboard.
Jack (MVP-Networking).

<BigAl.NZ@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167729222.062150.288630@k21g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I will attempt to explain this problem as best I can. I recently got
> high speed access to the net via a wireless dish. The dish has some
> client equipment in it and is connected to my PC via wired Ethernet.
>
> My PC has been assigned a static IP for the network, and because we are
> behind a router its not a real world IP.
>
> The problem is that rnadomly I loose my connection to the internet. I
> still show a connection on the LAN indictaors on the status bar.
>
> Now I find that if I click Repair on the context menu for that
> connection everything is fine again.
>
> This can happen a few times a day. The service provider swears its
> nothing at his end, and the fact that I have to repair to fix it kinda
> supports this theory. I dont know much about the gear but that its
> Trango. I am on XP SP2 with the latest IE7.
>
> Anyone able to shed any light pease?
>
> Thanks
>
> -AL
>




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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2007, 01:09 AM
Bill Kearney
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

> In that case, the one answer is another host trying to come
> online with the same IP address. The router will then put that
> host in its arp table, disconnecting you.


Oooh, good suggestion!

What I think he's after here is on the other side of the ISP router, the box
inside your house that's making the uplink to the ISP, is running into a
conflict for your IP address. What you need to see if the arp table inside
the router in your house, and if possible, get the ISP to look into the one
on their end.

Looking at the arp table on your PC won't help. You'd only be seeing MAC
addresses for stuff on your internal house network, not between your router
and the ISP.

Tangentally, it's VERY odd to see a router being setup on .254 and the
client being setup on a .1 address. There's nothing requiring the use of
any particular address, just that it's customary for a router to be on .1,
not client machines. Go figure.

-Bill Kearney


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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2007, 03:51 AM
BigAl.NZ@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Random Network drop out issue

Well no dropouts today, but as you say we may be fixing the symptom -
not the problem.

-Al


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