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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 06:16 PM
Walter Roberson
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Default Re: 11 Channels

In article <slrneccct0.im5.mews@localhost.daemonium.com>,
MEOW <mews@localhost.daemonium.com> wrote:
>Is it true that one can only use 3 channels in 802.11b even though the
>advertisement said you have 11 (FCC)?


Pretty much by definition, wireless is not a Local Area Network, so
comp.dcom.lans.ethernet is not really the appropriate newsgroup
for this matter. alt.internet.wireless would be a better newsgroup;
I have added that newsgroup into the header.

In any case, the answer is NO, that is not true.

What is true is that each channel transmits on a frequency range
centered around a base frequency, and that the frequency drop-off
around the defined band is not required to be sharp. There is a
power drop off in the channel on either side, more of a drop off
for the channels beside those, more yet for the ones beside those.

This leak of signal into the next channel does not make those
other channels unusable: it adds noise to those other channels,
making them -less- usable than if there were no overlap.

The drop-off is defined such that by the third channel over, the
interference is negligable. This situation leads to the following
typical allocations, in increasing frequency:

[band 1] - [detectable leak of channel 1]
[band 2] - [noticable leak of channel 1]
band 3 - [peak of channel 1]
[band 4] - [noticable leak of channel 1]
[band 5] - [detectable leak of channel 1]
[band 6] - [detectable leak of channel 6]
[band 7] - [noticable leak of channel 6]
band 8 - [peak of channel 6]
[band 9] - [noticable leak of channel 6]
[band 10] - [detectable leak of channel 6]
[band 11] - [detectable leak of channel 11]
[band 12] - [noticable leak of channel 11]
band 13 - [peak of channel 11]
[band 14] - [noticable leak of channel 11]
[band 15] - [detectable leak of channel 11]

Someone did a study and found that this allocation was not -necessary-
in order to get very good performance. Instead, they found that 4
transmitting channels could be used:

[band 1] - [detectable leak of channel 1]
[band 2] - [noticable leak of channel 1]
band 3 - [peak of channel 1]
[band 4] - [noticable leak of channel 1] + [detectable leak of channel 4]
[band 5] - [detectable leak of channel 1] + [noticable leak of channel 4]
band 6 - [peak of channel 4]
[band 7] - [noticable leak of channel 4]
[band 8] - [detectable leak of channel 8]
[band 9] - [noticable leak of channel 8]
band 10 - [peak of channel 8]
[band 11] - [noticable leak of channel 8] + [detectable leak of channel 11]
[band 12] - [detectable leak of channel 8] + [noticable leak of channel 11]
band 13 - [peak of channel 11]
[band 14] - [noticable leak of channel 11]
[band 15] - [detectable leak of channel 11]

You could shift the channel 8 activity down to channel 7 and shift the
channel 11 activity down to channel 9, and still get very good performance,
but there isn't any reason to do this unless you can transmit on
channel 12 -- which *is* allowed in some areas of the world. In those
areas, you can fit 5 useful channels in 12 allocated channels.


> How would you like to get only 2
> toppings with your Pizza even though you ordered 3? Oh and you pay for 3
> as well. ;)


It's more like, "You've asked for your tomato to be put on only
1/11th of the pizza, but we can't slice our tomato that small: we can
put the bulk of it on 1/11th of the pizza, but some of it is going to
end up on the next 1/11th, and a bit of it will even end up on the
part after that. If you insist that none of your toppings overlap,
then we can fit in 3 toppings, but if you are comfortable with a tiny
bit of topping overlap, hardly even enough to taste, then we can fit in
4 toppings. And if you don't mind topping overlap, we can give you up
to 11 different toppings.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 06:26 PM
Mike
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Default Re: 11 Channels

Walter Roberson wrote:

<snip>

>> How would you like to get only 2
>> toppings with your Pizza even though you ordered 3? Oh and you pay for 3
>> as well. ;)

>
> It's more like, "You've asked for your tomato to be put on only
> 1/11th of the pizza, but we can't slice our tomato that small: we can
> put the bulk of it on 1/11th of the pizza, but some of it is going to
> end up on the next 1/11th, and a bit of it will even end up on the
> part after that. If you insist that none of your toppings overlap,
> then we can fit in 3 toppings, but if you are comfortable with a tiny
> bit of topping overlap, hardly even enough to taste, then we can fit in
> 4 toppings. And if you don't mind topping overlap, we can give you up
> to 11 different toppings.


I have 13 channels on my linksys WRT54GS (after a firmware update) ,
does this mean I will get 2 free toppings when I order pizza via
domino's website?

Mike

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 06:55 PM
Bill Kearney
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Default Re: 11 Channels

> I have 13 channels on my linksys WRT54GS (after a firmware update) ,
> does this mean I will get 2 free toppings when I order pizza via
> domino's website?


Yeah, but they'd only be from the countries that let you use those
frequencies...


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 07:28 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 11 Channels

roberson@hushmail.com (Walter Roberson) hath wroth:

>In article <slrneccct0.im5.mews@localhost.daemonium.com>,
>MEOW <mews@localhost.daemonium.com> wrote:
>>Is it true that one can only use 3 channels in 802.11b even though the
>>advertisement said you have 11 (FCC)?


>Pretty much by definition, wireless is not a Local Area Network, so
>comp.dcom.lans.ethernet is not really the appropriate newsgroup
>for this matter. alt.internet.wireless would be a better newsgroup;
>I have added that newsgroup into the header.
>
>In any case, the answer is NO, that is not true.


He left off one important word. There are only 3 _non-overlapping_
channels. These are 1, 6, and 11. Channels in between tend to
overlap these channels. DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum)
spectra is about 22Mhz wide. Each FCC channel is 5MHz wide, which
means that wi-fi spectra occupies approximately 5 channels.

Intel Wireless Hotspot Deployment Guide
ftp://download.intel.com/business/bs...nt/hotspot.pdf
See Fig 6 and Fig 7 on Page 40.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 08:03 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 11 Channels

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 11:28:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in
<rnncc2hb77tpe2co91lln37rrh0n40s2l7@4ax.com>:

>roberson@hushmail.com (Walter Roberson) hath wroth:
>
>>In article <slrneccct0.im5.mews@localhost.daemonium.com>,
>>MEOW <mews@localhost.daemonium.com> wrote:
>>>Is it true that one can only use 3 channels in 802.11b even though the
>>>advertisement said you have 11 (FCC)?

>
>>Pretty much by definition, wireless is not a Local Area Network, so
>>comp.dcom.lans.ethernet is not really the appropriate newsgroup
>>for this matter. alt.internet.wireless would be a better newsgroup;
>>I have added that newsgroup into the header.
>>
>>In any case, the answer is NO, that is not true.

>
>He left off one important word. There are only 3 _non-overlapping_
>channels. These are 1, 6, and 11. Channels in between tend to
>overlap these channels. DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum)
>spectra is about 22Mhz wide. Each FCC channel is 5MHz wide, which
>means that wi-fi spectra occupies approximately 5 channels.


That's overly simplistic.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#Channels_and_international_compatibili ty>

802.11b and 802.11g divide the 2.4 GHz spectrum into 14 overlapping,
staggered channels whose center frequencies are 5 megahertz (MHz)
apart. It is a common misconception that channels 1, 6 and 11 (and, if
available in the regulatory domain, channel 14) do not overlap and
those channels (or other sets with similar gaps) can be used so that
multiple networks can operate in close proximity without interfering
with each other, but this statement is somewhat over-simplified. The
802.11b and 802.11g standards do not specify the width of a channel;
rather, they specify the center frequency of the channel and a
spectral mask for that channel. The spectral mask for 802.11b requires
that the signal be attenuated by at least 30 dB from its peak energy
at ±11 MHz from the center frequency, and attenuated by at least 50 dB
from its peak energy at ±22 MHz from the center frequency.

Since the spectral mask only defines power output restrictions up to
±22 MHz from the center frequency, it is often assumed that the energy
of the channel extends no further than these limits. In reality, if
the transmitter is sufficiently powerful, the signal can be quite
strong even beyond the ±22 MHz point. Therefore, it is correct to say
that channels 1, 6, and 11 overlap. It is more correct to say that,
given the separation between channels 1, 6, and 11, the signal on any
channel should be sufficiently attenuated to minimally interfere with
a transmitter on any other channel. However, this is not universally
true; for example, a powerful transmitter on channel 1 can easily
overwhelm a weaker transmitter on channel 6. In one lab test,
throughput on a file transfer on channel 11 decreased slightly when a
similar transfer began on channel 1, indicating that even channels 1
and 11 can interfere with each other to some extent.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2006, 08:09 PM
Derek Broughton
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 11 Channels

Walter Roberson wrote:

> In article <slrneccct0.im5.mews@localhost.daemonium.com>,
> MEOW <mews@localhost.daemonium.com> wrote:
>>Is it true that one can only use 3 channels in 802.11b even though the
>>advertisement said you have 11 (FCC)?

>
> Pretty much by definition, wireless is not a Local Area Network,


That'll come as a great surprise to the great majority of us who use
wireless _strictly_ for LANS

> alt.internet.wireless would be a better newsgroup;


However, this is true.

> It's more like, "You've asked for your tomato to be put on only
> 1/11th of the pizza, but we can't slice our tomato that small: we can
> put the bulk of it on 1/11th of the pizza, but some of it is going to
> end up on the next 1/11th, and a bit of it will even end up on the
> part after that. If you insist that none of your toppings overlap,
> then we can fit in 3 toppings, but if you are comfortable with a tiny
> bit of topping overlap, hardly even enough to taste, then we can fit in
> 4 toppings. And if you don't mind topping overlap, we can give you up
> to 11 different toppings.


So what did you need alt.internet.wireless to get involved for? That pretty
much says it... :-)
--
derek

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2006, 12:19 AM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 11 Channels

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:03:01 GMT, John Navas
<spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

>>He left off one important word. There are only 3 _non-overlapping_
>>channels. These are 1, 6, and 11. Channels in between tend to
>>overlap these channels. DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum)
>>spectra is about 22Mhz wide. Each FCC channel is 5MHz wide, which
>>means that wi-fi spectra occupies approximately 5 channels.

>
>That's overly simplistic.
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#Channels_and_international_compatibili ty>


"Close enough for this context."
(Sorry, I couldn't resist).

> Since the spectral mask only defines power output restrictions up to
> ±22 MHz from the center frequency, it is often assumed that the energy
> of the channel extends no further than these limits. In reality, if
> the transmitter is sufficiently powerful, the signal can be quite
> strong even beyond the ±22 MHz point.

(etc...)

This is correct and a serious problem for co-located radios, such as
at WISP sites. However, having more than one radio on different
channels is a rather unusual situation for the typical home user.
Let's play with the numbers and see how it works.

Let's take a typical wireless nightmare situation. Your municipal
government has just announced that they will use your tax dollars to
provide free wireless to the multitudes by installing an access point
on a street light outside your house. You look out the window and
there's the antenna on the opposite side of the street, 50ft away. A
quick check with Kismet shows that they're on Channel 6, insuring that
you're stuck with Ch 1 or Ch 11.

Quiz question: Will the interference generated by the municipal
xmitter on Ch 1 or 11 be enough to cause a problem and how badly?

Let's pretend they municipal wireless vendor is clueful and does not
install maximum overpower 1 watt radio alligators. Let's say 200mw or
+23dBm. The usual omni antenna has +8dBi gain, but the light pole is
well over the head of the nearby home, resulting in perhaps only +4dBi
gain at street level. I'll guess about
+23dBm + 4dBi = +27dBm EIRP.

At 50ft, the path loss at 2.4GHz is:
loss = 36.56 + 20Log(MHz) + 20Log(miles)
= 36.56 + 20Log(2400) + 20Log(0.01)
= 36.56 + 67.6 - 40 = 64dB

I'll assume a typical access point with a yucky 2dBi rubber ducky
antenna. Therefore, the rx signal level on Ch 6 at the receiver input
is:
+27dBm -64dB +2dBi = -35dBm

The 2nd lobe of the sinx/x spread spectra is guaranteed by an agency
of the federal govenment to be -50dB below the center power peak 22MHz
on either side, or the middle of ch 1 or ch 11. Therefore, the
interference signal at the receiver on Ch 1 or ch 11 will be:
-35dBm + -50dB = -85dBm

If the user is trying to use 802.11b at 5.5Mbits/sec the required
receiver sensitivity for 10^-5 BER is about -86dBm. The receive level
has to be at least 11dB higher (fade margin) at 5.5Mbits/sec or the
receiver will be completely unreliable. That means the operating
receive signal level will be -75dBm.

-85dBm worth of interference isn't going to do too much to a -74dBm
receive level. That's 11 dB of margin. The home owner can safely
operate his home network without fear that his tax dollars are being
used to construct a municipal jamming system.

Obviously, this is a contrived situation, but I think fairly realistic
and common. By moving the interfering transmitter closer to the users
receiver, the situation will deteriorate rapidly. Inverse square law
says that if I cut the distance in half, the signal level will
increase 6dB. Assuming the receive needs a S/N of about 11dB to
operate, if the original 50ft distance were reduced to about 14ft, the
noise on ch 1 or ch 11 will be sufficient to screw things up rather
badly. Same with a substantial increase in xmit power.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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