Re: Lady-in-Distress needs your help Re.WiFi Connections please!

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
<Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
<Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:

>A] 1 PC, 1 Laptop. Want to be able to access the Internet (maybe both
>machines at the same time if possible).

Definitely possible.

>B] I live in the country so although the security side of it (WEP,
>WPA/PSK) is important, I'm not likely to have
>neighbours/nasty-people-in-Vans-parked-outside stealing info.

Risky assumption. No good reason not to use WPA with a strong
passphrase.

>C] Neither PC or Lappy has wireless adapter inside - I need dongles or
>PC Adapter card

Or non-dongle USB adapter. Or wireless Ethernet client bridge.

>Is it possible to a) Hard-wire WiFi modem/router into back of PC then
>b) install dongle/or PC Adapter in lappy, rather than have dongles in
>BOTH PC and lappy? OR do I need to use dongles/adapter cards in BOTH PC
>AND lappy?

Hard wire? You mean connect the PC with Ethernet to the router instead
of wireless? Sure. Pretty much all wireless routers include a number
of wired ports. The PC can be wired or wireless, and the laptop can be
wired or wireless.

>Which TYPE of modem/router do I need? There are sooo many
>types/standards, difficult for the absolute beginner to know WHICH one
>to go for, but I think (after reading a lot online) G+ probably OK? What
>about N standard? And what is MIMO ?

Forget about all the marketing crap. All you need is good quality
802.11g wireless.

>D] Next question is - What's the best manufacturer? There are quite a
>few sets costing in the £40 -s now, as there are in the £90 -s - Belkin,
>NetGear, Buffalo, etc etc. Which seems to be the Easiest and mist
>reliable please, but not costing the Earth?

My favorite brand is Buffalo, but that gear is now barred from the US
market due to a patent dispute. Belkin is bottom of the barrel.
Hawking is cheap and decent. Likewise Netgear, D-Link and Linksys.
Also TRENDnet. Suggest:

* Linksys WRT54GL Wireless Router (note the L)
* Netgear WG511 PC Card

>E] BT customer, not Cable.

DSL? Then you'll want a DSL modem with an Ethernet connection for the
wireless router.

>I'd be very grateful if someone could help me out with this.

The wiki below has lots of useful information.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:
>
>
>> E] BT customer, not Cable.
>
> DSL?

I guess she's in the UK, where BT are the phone network provider and who
provide ADSL in many cases.

To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
router.

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
>> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
>> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:
>>
>>> E] BT customer, not Cable.
>>
>> DSL?
>
>I guess she's in the UK, where BT are the phone network provider and who
>provide ADSL in many cases.
>
>To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>router.

Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>
>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>> router.
>
> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

At double the cost and complexity.

In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
excessive.

--
Mark McIntyre

CLC FAQ <http://c-faq.com/>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>> router.
>>
>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>
>At double the cost and complexity.

Not that much more expensive, not at all complex, and much easier to
deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.

>In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
>having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
>excessive.

I personally think it's usually better in the long run.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>> router.
>>
>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

>At double the cost and complexity.

Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does. It's also not
double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
shipping.

>In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
>having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
>excessive.

Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
idea.

1. Intrusion detection. The traffic sniffer goes between the modem
and router. The connection point is inaccessible in a conglomerated
package.
2. Moving from a DSL to a cable modem or shared internet environment
requires the replacement of the wireless router. If the modem and
router were in seperate boxes, only the modem would need to be
replaced.
3. Location, location, and location. DSL phone cables tend to live
near the floor. Wireless devices like to live up high for best
coverage. Putting the DSL/wireless router conglomeration near the
floor usually results in lousy range. With seperate boxes, it's much
easier to optimize the locations.
4. The latest fashion in DSL/wireless/router combinations is to have
only one ethernet port due to lack of panel space to handle added
features such as a USB printer port. Adding wired computers usually
involves adding an ethernet switch.
5. DSL modems are often sensitive to digital and RF noise. I have an
(unconfirmed) suspicion that some of the odd DSL performance issues
I'm seeing ocassionally are due to RF getting into the DSL front end.
6. It's MUCH easier to troubleshoot networking problems if you can
easily replace a functional section.
7. Mutliple boxes are cool looking and give everyone the impression
that you're a networking geek. Impress your friends.

Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

John Navas wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
> <q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>
>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>> router.
>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>> At double the cost and complexity.
>
> Not that much more expensive,

In the UK, APs are often MORE expensive than ADSL-ready wireless
routers. For example one online retailer has a cheap wireless router for
£25, while their cheapest AP is £31 and cheapest wired router is about
£20. To get name-brands (ie not generic own-brand, belkin or edimax),
you have to step up by about a fiver on each.

> not at all complex, and much easier to
> deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.

I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

Myself, I have a wired router attached to a cable modem, with two
wireless routers acting as APs hanging off the end of cat5 from the
'main' router.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>
>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>> router.
>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>
>> At double the cost and complexity.
>
> Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does.

Agreed. However many UK ISPs supply a USB_only DSL modem, with the
option of a one-port router for extra cash.

> It's also not
> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
> shipping.

I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
rely on to function.... :-)

> Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
> idea.

I don't disagree at all.

> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.

I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.

Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
>instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

Idiots don't read instructions, so instructions written for idiots
will never be read. Besides, most of the routers these days come
with:
1. Wholesale repudiation of responsibility written in legalese.
2. Overly simplified installation giant foldout suitable for
recycling.
3. Warranty limitations in 15 assorted languages.
4. A "Read Me First" document that says to shove in the included
CDROM and to call support if you're stuck.

If there are any useful instruction in the box, it's been a long time
since I've seen any.

>Myself, I have a wired router attached to a cable modem, with two
>wireless routers acting as APs hanging off the end of cat5 from the
>'main' router.

My setup of the week is:
1. Efficient 5360 (junk) DSL modem.
2. Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 with DD-WRT v24 RC6.2 wireless router with
external antenna running the neighborhood WLAN.
3. Linksys WRT54Gv4 running the local LAN and WLAN.
4. Panasonic Toughbook CF-M34 running various sniffer, monitoring,
and IDS applications.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>>> At double the cost and complexity.
>>
>> Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does.

>Agreed. However many UK ISPs supply a USB_only DSL modem, with the
>option of a one-port router for extra cash.

Yech. I've never found the USB DSL modems useful for anything more
than testing. I wonder why they do that as ethernet DSL modems aren't
any more expensive than USB.

Incidentally, note the retail prices from SBC/AT&T:
<http://www.sbcdslstore.com/Catalog/ProductCategories.asp?CategoryId=catMRG&SortBy=&So rtOrder=DESC&num=999999>

>> Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
>> idea.
>
>I don't disagree at all.

Ok. In my never humble opinion, the few and marginal benifits of a
conglomerated package, do not offer much in view of the potential
disadvantages that I listed. Incidentally, literally all of the
conglomerated DSL/router combinations boxes I've accumulated and
resold were the result of someone moving to a cable connection, and
discovering that their equipment was useless.

>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.

I was referring to my customers installations. I don't have time to
cut custom cables on site. I recently obtained about 300ea 1 meter
long cables. All are stranded CAT5e cable with molded and protected
ends. They pass in a gigabit cable tester (even though stranded wire
should not be expected to pass). That should take care of my installs
for perhaps 2 years. The 1 meter length is a bit much for box
interconnects, but seems ideal for general purpose cables. If I get
ambitious, I may build a pile of shorter jumper cables.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:27:45 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<XLLrj.17402$ng7.2799@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> John Navas wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>>> router.
>>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>>> At double the cost and complexity.
>>
>> Not that much more expensive,
>
>In the UK, APs are often MORE expensive than ADSL-ready wireless
>routers. For example one online retailer has a cheap wireless router for
>£25, while their cheapest AP is £31 and cheapest wired router is about
>£20. To get name-brands (ie not generic own-brand, belkin or edimax),
>you have to step up by about a fiver on each.

I can't speak to the UK, but here in the USA Ethernet equipped DSL
modems are dirt cheap or even free from the service provider, and
wireless routers that can be configured as access points are cheap.

>> not at all complex, and much easier to
>> deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.
>
>I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
>instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

I've all too often had to bail out people where "idiot-proof"
configuration had failed.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<fPLrj.5617$ea6.792@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> It's also not
>> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
>> shipping.
>
>I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>rely on to function.... :-)

Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
deals on eBay.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
><markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
><fPLrj.5617$ea6.792@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>>> It's also not
>>> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
>>> shipping.
>>
>>I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>>rely on to function.... :-)

>Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
>deals on eBay.

Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose. For my latest fiasco, see:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/BL-shop5.html>
On the left is a pile of HP 8620a/c sweep generators. On the right
are two Wavetek 3000a service monitors plus one on the shelf. Only
the one on the shelf works.

All 6 boxes were purchased as sorta working (varies by the creative
descriptions) for much less than what a working and properly tested
unit would have cost. When I get two of these working, I'll have the
3rd unit for spare parts.

My never humble advice on buying DSL modems, routers, and wireless
devices on eBay is to buy two. The prices are much less than retail
and if you really want at least one to work, you'll need to buy a
spare. Be prepared to do a firmware update on arrival.

I hate to admit how much hardware I've bought on eBay. Most of the
hardware shown on my current workbench are eBay purchases. In most
cases, I get better service, better quality, and better prices on eBay
than retail or mail order. I have yet to be cheated, have filed no
grievances with eBay, and have had only one major misunderstanding
(which was eventually solved to everyone's satisfaction). If I have
anything to complain about eBay, it's that many vendors offer very
vague and terse descriptions, miserable photos, and bizarre terms.
Caveat Emptor.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>>> rely on to function.... :-)
>
>> Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
>> deals on eBay.
>
> Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose.

My biggest issue is that my brother in law runs an antiques business
using ebay. So I get to see precisely how such sellers and buyers
operate .... Kinda like eating turkey after working night-shift in the
poultry-gutting works... :-)