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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2008, 08:50 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: router and/or access point?

henry999@eircom.net (Henry) hath wroth:

>Well, I have to say I'm learning a lot as I study up in preparation for
>buying into wireless and joining the modern world. Reading a fact sheet
>for some Buffalo equipment,


Any particular model number?

>I was surprised by this:


>2 Products in 1 !
>
>External Switch Quickly And Easily Changes Between Wireless Router and
>Wireless Access Point
>
>Router Mode -- Shares a Cable or DSL connection with multiple wired and
>wireless devices
>
>Access Point Mode -- Quickly adds wireless access to your existing local
>area network


>This seems to indicate that you can either connect to the other
>computers on the LAN for file transfers, and to printers for print jobs,
>etc. OR you can connect to the internet -- but not both simultaneously.
>Can that be right???


Nope. Not even close. *ALL* wireless routers can be used as an
access point by merely ignoring the router section and just using the
access point section seperately. See the FAQ at:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To#Use_a_wireless_router_as_a_wireless_acce ss_point>
It's not magic or an exclusive feature of a Buffalo product.

However, some routers go an (un-necessary) step further and offer a
"mode" setting in the setup that does all this for you. If you select
"access point mode", you get a brain dead access point, with no router
functionality.

Such access point only setups are very handy for expanding a wireless
system that's running through a single router. It's also good for
some wireless bridge applications, where you would want point to point
connectivity. However, the device has to support a bridging mode for
this to work.

It is NOT suitable for a print server, as the device that plugs into
the printer is actually a wireless ethernet client bridge, and not an
access point.

Lost in the buzzwords? See the FAQ for even more buzzwords:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi#Wireless_Bridge_Types>

>Are all wireless routers like this?


Using my explanation of how to convert a wireless router into an
access point, the answer is yes. You can do that with *ANY* wireless
router. However, as to whether it has a user settable "mode" to do
the same thing, it varies by maker, model, and firmware version.

>I never would have imagined such a
>limitation. (Live and learn.)


Various controlled substances are know to improve the imagination.
However, methinks a bit of reading and Learn By Destroying(tm) would
be more effective at understanding how the acronyms and buzzwords
work.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 05:06 AM
John Navas
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Default Re: router and/or access point?

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:38:20 +0200, henry999@eircom.net (Henry) wrote in
<1ic4y44.o2bjbibo9j5jN%henry999@eircom.net>:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:


>> It is NOT suitable for a print server, as the device that plugs into
>> the printer is actually a wireless ethernet client bridge, and not an
>> access point.

>
>Are you saying that if I have a printer connected to one of the ethernet
>ports on such a wireless router, I can't print to it from a wireless
>laptop???


No.

An Ethernet printer can attach to any Ethernet network.
A USB or parallel printer needs a print server.

Jeff said an access point is not suitable as a print server.
A wireless router can serve as a print server.
Likewise a wireless Ethernet client bridge.
But not a wireless access point.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 06:08 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: router and/or access point?

henry999@eircom.net (Henry) hath wroth:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> henry999@eircom.net (Henry) hath wroth:
>>
>> >for some Buffalo equipment,

>>
>> Any particular model number?

>
>WHR-125
>WHR-G54S
>WHR-HP-G54



>
>> >2 Products in 1 !
>> >
>> >External Switch Quickly And Easily Changes Between Wireless Router and
>> >Wireless Access Point
>> >
>> >Router Mode -- Shares a Cable or DSL connection with multiple wired and
>> >wireless devices
>> >
>> >Access Point Mode -- Quickly adds wireless access to your existing local
>> >area network

>>
>> >This seems to indicate that you can either connect to the other
>> >computers on the LAN for file transfers, and to printers for print jobs,
>> >etc. OR you can connect to the internet -- but not both simultaneously.
>> >Can that be right???

>>
>> Nope. Not even close.


>Well ... 'external switch' ... toggle a<->b? push-button? ... 'changes
>between' ... n.b., "between", i.e., one or the other


Is that a question, answer, or comment? I can't tell..........?

Todays "wireless router" is a combination of ingredients. It consists
of:
1. Wireless access point which is actually a wireless bridge.
2. An ethernet router
3. An ethernet switch with one port connected to the wireless bridge.
4. Optional USB or parallel ports for running print servers.
It is NOT necessary to switch, toggle, jumper, or otherwise configure
these sections in order for them to function. For example, you can
successfully use a wireless router as a 4 port ethernet switch,
without involving any of the other sections or configuring anything.

>> It is NOT suitable for a print server, as the device that plugs into
>> the printer is actually a wireless ethernet client bridge, and not an
>> access point.


>Are you saying that if I have a printer connected to one of the ethernet
>ports on such a wireless router, I can't print to it from a wireless
>laptop???


Nope. I'm saying that a typical wireless access point is unsuitable
as a print server. The print server function is a Layer 3 feature,
which requires the router section to function (for LPR/LPD services on
port 515). Since an access point has no router section, this isn't
going to work. You can run any protocol *THROUGH* an access point,
but the print server will need to be elsewhere.

You can do literally anything with a wireless access point and
wireless client combination that you can do with a CAT5 ethernet
cable. That's because the way wireless works is via bridging and
encapsulation. Bridging does not involve any layer 3 services and
knows nothing about IP addresses or routing. The 802.3 ethernet
packets are encapsulated inside 802.11 wireless packets. What comes
out of the ethernet port at the other end of a wireless link is
exactly the same as what would come out of it if there were a wired
connection instead of wireless. If you can print through an ethernet
cable, then you can also do it via wireless.

As Mark McIntyre mentioned, Buffalo is dispensing what might be called
techno-hype or marketing-speak. Providing a user settable function
that can also be done quite easily by simple configuration changes,
does not constitute much of a feature. However, Buffalo does make it
sound good. They do the same thing with other buzzwords, such as
"MIMO Performance" which has nothing to do with MIMO and is only
mentioned to capitalize on the latest industry acronym or buzzword.
Much as I like Buffalo products, I can do without the hype.

>cheers,


Sorry, but I don't drink.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2008, 08:58 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: router and/or access point?

John Navas wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:38:20 +0200, henry999@eircom.net (Henry) wrote in
> <1ic4y44.o2bjbibo9j5jN%henry999@eircom.net>:


>> Are you saying that if I have a printer connected to one of the ethernet
>> ports on such a wireless router, I can't print to it from a wireless
>> laptop???

>
> An Ethernet printer can attach to any Ethernet network.
> A USB or parallel printer needs a print server.


And you'd like to think that you could print to it from a wireless
client. However...

I have a WinXP laptop that can print to my DLink printserver perfectly
when using wired, but can't even /find/ it when wireless. It can find
every other resource on my network - but not the dlink printserver.... gah.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 01:01 AM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: router and/or access point?

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:58:13 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<WDosj.831$tX6.211@en-nntp-02.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:38:20 +0200, henry999@eircom.net (Henry) wrote in
>> <1ic4y44.o2bjbibo9j5jN%henry999@eircom.net>:

>
>>> Are you saying that if I have a printer connected to one of the ethernet
>>> ports on such a wireless router, I can't print to it from a wireless
>>> laptop???

>>
>> An Ethernet printer can attach to any Ethernet network.
>> A USB or parallel printer needs a print server.

>
>And you'd like to think that you could print to it from a wireless
>client. However...
>
>I have a WinXP laptop that can print to my DLink printserver perfectly
>when using wired, but can't even /find/ it when wireless. It can find
>every other resource on my network - but not the dlink printserver.... gah.


That should be fixable. Sounds like a network configuration issue.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 10:41 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: router and/or access point?

John Navas wrote:
>
>Sounds like a network configuration issue.


/Everything/ that I could diagnose about the two connections was
identical, except that one was using the builtin 10/100 Intel NIC and
the other was using a 54G Edimax wireless card. The Wireless could do
absolutely everything except see the printserver.

> That should be fixable.


The fix was to upgrade to XP Pro... :-)






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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 11:07 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: router and/or access point?

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:41:53 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<7fLsj.804$wc2.478@en-nntp-01.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
> >
>>Sounds like a network configuration issue.

>
>/Everything/ that I could diagnose about the two connections was
>identical, except that one was using the builtin 10/100 Intel NIC and
>the other was using a 54G Edimax wireless card. The Wireless could do
>absolutely everything except see the printserver.


One possibility is a wireless isolation feature.

I would troubleshoot by substituting a PC for the print server.

> > That should be fixable.

>
>The fix was to upgrade to XP Pro... :-)


I thought it was Win XP Pro.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: router and/or access point?

John Navas wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:41:53 +0000, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
> <7fLsj.804$wc2.478@en-nntp-01.am2.easynews.com>:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> Sounds like a network configuration issue.

>> /Everything/ that I could diagnose about the two connections was
>> identical, except that one was using the builtin 10/100 Intel NIC and
>> the other was using a 54G Edimax wireless card. The Wireless could do
>> absolutely everything except see the printserver.

>
> One possibility is a wireless isolation feature.
>
> I would troubleshoot by substituting a PC for the print server.
>
>>> That should be fixable.

>> The fix was to upgrade to XP Pro... :-)

>
> I thought it was Win XP Pro.


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