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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:23 PM
Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com
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Default replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

This is the exam our teacher gave us today.

we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
disconnected with this replacement.

can anyone help me plz?
ex my bad english hope u understand the question.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:32 PM
John Navas
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

On 23 Nov 2006 09:23:43 -0800, "Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com"
<Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in
<1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>:

>This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
>
>we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
>antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
>disconnected with this replacement.
>
>can anyone help me plz?
>ex my bad english hope u understand the question.


Usenet isn't for homework assignments.
Use Google to do research on the Web.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:11 PM
Dana
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna


<Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
>
> we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
> antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
> disconnected with this replacement.
>
> can anyone help me plz?
> ex my bad english hope u understand the question.
>


1) the end user is not in the direction of coverage.
2) if the user is in the directional coverage, and close to the source the
increased power may be swamping the RX, causing the connection to drop



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:13 PM
Dana
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna


"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:4nmbm2dcnsfsovfduodj8a7om4vb4s6o8l@4ax.com...
> On 23 Nov 2006 09:23:43 -0800, "Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com"
> <Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in
> <1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>:
>
> >This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
> >
> >we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
> >antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
> >disconnected with this replacement.
> >
> >can anyone help me plz?
> >ex my bad english hope u understand the question.

>
> Usenet isn't for homework assignments.
> Use Google to do research on the Web.

I agree with you about the homework part.
But just speculating what may have happened, and just listing the end result
would be interesting to see what people think may happen.
Heck off the top of my head I can only think of two reasons.

>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
> John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
> Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
> Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>




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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:19 PM
John Navas
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:13:44 -0900, "Dana" <raff242@yahoo.com> wrote in
<12mbp348hlbed51@corp.supernews.com>:

>"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
>news:4nmbm2dcnsfsovfduodj8a7om4vb4s6o8l@4ax.com.. .
>> On 23 Nov 2006 09:23:43 -0800, "Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com"
>> <Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>:
>>
>> >This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
>> >
>> >we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
>> >antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
>> >disconnected with this replacement.
>> >
>> >can anyone help me plz?
>> >ex my bad english hope u understand the question.

>>
>> Usenet isn't for homework assignments.
>> Use Google to do research on the Web.

>I agree with you about the homework part.
>But just speculating what may have happened, and just listing the end result
>would be interesting to see what people think may happen.
>Heck off the top of my head I can only think of two reasons.


Me too, but you really don't learn much when someone else supplies the
answer.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:33 PM
decaturtxcowboy
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

Dana wrote:
> I agree with you about the homework part.
> But just speculating what may have happened, and just listing the end result
> would be interesting to see what people think may happen.
> Heck off the top of my head I can only think of two reasons.


The kid seems to have decent internet skills as he found this news group.

So lets assume he has indeed tried to find the answer. I suspect you won't
find the answer to the question as worded as such. Insufficient information
and it appears its an essay required answer instead of multiple guess...
this would allow some leeway in explaining his answers (and if answered
correctly, point out the poorly worded question).

Granted, a client on the back side of a directional access point would
loose coverage, but we don't know which antenna was changed out - the AP
or client side.

How much coax loss was introduced into the system? Did several or all
of the client points loose connection? Which antenna was replaced, the
AP side or client side?



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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:58 PM
John Navas
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:33:25 GMT, decaturtxcowboy
<nope_none_@nowayspam.com> wrote in
<VPl9h.9543$yE6.5379@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> :

>Dana wrote:
>> I agree with you about the homework part.
>> But just speculating what may have happened, and just listing the end result
>> would be interesting to see what people think may happen.
>> Heck off the top of my head I can only think of two reasons.

>
>The kid seems to have decent internet skills as he found this news group.


Nothing special about that, and irrelevant to his assignment.

It's a well-accepted principle that Usenet isn't for homework
assignments -- see Usenet guidelines.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 07:41 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

"Dana" <raff242@yahoo.com> hath wroth:

>
><Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googleg roups.com...
>> This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
>>
>> we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
>> antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
>> disconnected with this replacement.
>>
>> can anyone help me plz?
>> ex my bad english hope u understand the question.


>1) the end user is not in the direction of coverage.
>2) if the user is in the directional coverage, and close to the source the
>increased power may be swamping the RX, causing the connection to drop


Incidentally, the original question came from the Soroush Resaneh
Institute in Tehran, Iran via mellat.tehran.sinet.ir
<http://sinet.ir/English/>

Well, now that you've given away 2 out of 3 answers, I can become part
of the problem instead of the solution. Might as well give up any
pretense of at being helpful. However, in the future, I suggest you
avoid answering student homework questions as they are expected to do
their own research and usually have much better learning resources at
their skools than are available on the internet.

3) Increased antenna gain causes distant source of interference to
now become a problem.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:27 PM
Dana
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna


"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
news:b8ubm29akgcoekit6jeman5165eid6tk74@4ax.com...
> "Dana" <raff242@yahoo.com> hath wroth:
>
> >
> ><Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1164302623.871386.259850@j72g2000cwa.googleg roups.com...
> >> This is the exam our teacher gave us today.
> >>
> >> we replace an omnidirectional antenna with Gain=0 dB with a directional
> >> antenna with Gain=10 dB. give 3 reasons why the connection is
> >> disconnected with this replacement.
> >>
> >> can anyone help me plz?
> >> ex my bad english hope u understand the question.

>
> >1) the end user is not in the direction of coverage.
> >2) if the user is in the directional coverage, and close to the source

the
> >increased power may be swamping the RX, causing the connection to drop

>
> Incidentally, the original question came from the Soroush Resaneh
> Institute in Tehran, Iran via mellat.tehran.sinet.ir
> <http://sinet.ir/English/>
>
> Well, now that you've given away 2 out of 3 answers, I can become part
> of the problem instead of the solution. Might as well give up any
> pretense of at being helpful. However, in the future, I suggest you
> avoid answering student homework questions as they are expected to do
> their own research and usually have much better learning resources at
> their skools than are available on the internet.
>
> 3) Increased antenna gain causes distant source of interference to
> now become a problem.


So obvious I overlooked that as an answer. But then my two answers were
obvious as well.
I kind of dissagree with the homework thing, especially if you only give
generic answers like we did, and leave it to the original poster as to find
out why those answers may indeed be the answers they are looking for.

>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558




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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2006, 09:14 AM
Ikkunaprincessa
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

i'm so terribly sorry i didn't read group's guidelines.
i didn't know i wasn't allowed to ask for homework assignments.
the problem is that our proffesor didn't teach antenna well. he spoke
about them only 30 minutes.
also the text book he intorduced us doesn't explain much about antenna.
(the book is "Data Communications, Computer Networks and Open Systems"
by Fred Halsall.
we have only studied chapter one & two.)

thanks alot for ur help. i searched myself 'n here is what i came up
with (i'm sorry if i'm not able to explain well in english):

1. maybe the main lobe of our directional antenna is not directed
toward the receiver.
(the end user is not in the direction of coverage)

2.maybe polarization of the new antenna is not as of the receiver''s.

3.maybe the the propagation bandwidth of the transmitter antenna is not
equal to the receiver's bandwidth.


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2006, 05:16 PM
decaturtxcowboy
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

Ikkunaprincessa wrote:
> thanks alot for ur help. i searched myself 'n here is what i came up
> with (i'm sorry if i'm not able to explain well in english):


> 3.maybe the the propagation bandwidth of the transmitter antenna is not
> equal to the receiver's bandwidth.


Well...at least you found a third answer to a a questions that was
rather ambiguous to begin with.

But in all practicality, I seriously doubt you will find an antenna
with so much gain that the bandwidth is degraded.

Increasing the gain will narrow the beam width or vice versa,
narrowing the beam width increases the gain. *It also narrows*
the band width of the antenna, but not to any degree that you
need to worry about in actual practice.

Ad hoc off the top of my head numbers, a 6 dB gain antenna has
about 5% bandwidth at 1.5:1 SWR. Therefore in the 2412-2462 MHz
band, a 6 dB gain antenna cut for a center frequency of 2437 MHz
will be acceptable from 2300 Mhz up to 2560 MHz...well within
specs. Again, these are off the top of my head numbers.

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2006, 05:25 PM
Dana
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna


"Ikkunaprincessa" <Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164532467.016918.126690@45g2000cws.googlegro ups.com...
> i'm so terribly sorry i didn't read group's guidelines.
> i didn't know i wasn't allowed to ask for homework assignments.
> the problem is that our proffesor didn't teach antenna well. he spoke
> about them only 30 minutes.
> also the text book he intorduced us doesn't explain much about antenna.
> (the book is "Data Communications, Computer Networks and Open Systems"
> by Fred Halsall.
> we have only studied chapter one & two.)
>
> thanks alot for ur help. i searched myself 'n here is what i came up
> with (i'm sorry if i'm not able to explain well in english):
>
> 1. maybe the main lobe of our directional antenna is not directed
> toward the receiver.
> (the end user is not in the direction of coverage)


Ok
>
> 2.maybe polarization of the new antenna is not as of the receiver''s.


OK, I even forgot to think of this one.
>
> 3.maybe the the propagation bandwidth of the transmitter antenna is not
> equal to the receiver's bandwidth.


The antenna by itself would not have a bandwidth.(as described in your reply
#3) When you talk about the propagation bandwidth of a transmitting antenna
being different than the receivers, I think you meant to say the frequencies
were different.
>




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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2006, 06:10 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

"Ikkunaprincessa" <Ikkunaprincessa69@gmail.com> hath wroth:

>i'm so terribly sorry i didn't read group's guidelines.
>i didn't know i wasn't allowed to ask for homework assignments.


It isn't the groups guidelines. It's a general usenet guideline to
not ask about homework problems. You don't learn anything by simply
asking for the answers. However, it appears that you want some
understanding of the antenna problem, which is quite different.

>the problem is that our proffesor didn't teach antenna well. he spoke
>about them only 30 minutes.
>also the text book he intorduced us doesn't explain much about antenna.
>(the book is "Data Communications, Computer Networks and Open Systems"
>by Fred Halsall.
>we have only studied chapter one & two.)


I'm not familiar with the book. Antennas cannot be learned in 30
minutes.

>1. maybe the main lobe of our directional antenna is not directed
>toward the receiver.
>(the end user is not in the direction of coverage)
>
>2.maybe polarization of the new antenna is not as of the receiver''s.


You seem to be interpreting the question as "How can I misuse or
misintall the antenna". Direction and cross-polarization are just
two. Excessive coax cable losses, diversity reception failure,
positioning the antenna in a null area, and line of sight problems are
some others. However, I don't think that this is what the professor
wanted. I think he's assuming a properly designed antenna that should
work correctly in a wireless system, but doesn't. That means the
source of the 3 failure has to come from outside the radio and the
high gain antenna. That leaves:
1. Mis-aiming the antenna.
2. Cross polarization.
3. Obstruction in the line of sight.
4. Too close and causing receiver overload.
The last one might be too obscure for a beginning class.

>3.maybe the the propagation bandwidth of the transmitter antenna is not
>equal to the receiver's bandwidth.


Good thinking, but not possible (as others have mentioned). The
required receiver bandwidth for 802.11 is about 25MHz. In general,
the higher the gain of the antenna, the narrower the bandwidth. At
about 24dBi, the antenna bandwidth is about 80Mhz for a VSWR < 1.5:1.
That's the entire 2400 to 2483.5MHz band, which is nice because the
antenna does not require any adjustments for different channels.
However, if the gain of the dish antenna is much over 24dBi, the
bandwidth will be less and the antenna will need to be either selected
or tuned for a specific channel. Even if this were the case, the
antenna would need to be so narrow as to exclude signal from the
adjacent RF channels, which is highly unlikely. The system should
still work even with a mistuned antenna.

I'm not sure any of this helps with your homework problem. It's
difficult to guess what the professor is expecting for an answer.
However, it might explain some of the terms you've been using.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2006, 08:09 PM
Ikkunaprincessa
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Default Re: replacing omnidirectional antenna with a directional antenna

Thanks alot for takin time to reply.
i think i have to study more references in order to achieve a basic
knowledge in this field.

merci


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