Seeking clarification of free wireless internet hopes

I'm fed up with my crappy dialup internet connection. Now I learn that
I can get wireless internet if I build an antenna and if there is a
signal around my area.

I've read lots of stuff about coffee cantennas and parabolic dish
antennas. I understand how to construct the antenna.

I just installed a wifi card in my pc. As expected it detects no
signal. So, building an antenna is the next step. But first I need
some verication about my chances of success.

I have read that a wifi card can pull in a signal up to, maybe, a
couple hundred feet, a cantenna can get one from a mile or two and a
parabolic dish can reach out 8-10 miles.

There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
closest is about a mile and a quarter.

I can mount a antenna or dish about 15 ft up on a tower.

So my main question is...Is it true that its possible to access the
internet in this way?

If this is possible, I can understand aquiring a signal from a strong
signal source. But is a signal from MY source...my pc and wireless
card...able to get out there to the WIFI hotspot for an upload to the
internet?

What else do I need to know?

sofasurfer wrote:
> There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
> closest is about a mile and a quarter.
>
> What else do I need to know?

How to get authentication or authorization to use their facilities.

On Feb 22, 11:21 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
> sofasurfer wrote:
> > What else do I need to know?
>
> How to get authentication or authorization to use their facilities.

Don't need it. Perfectly legal...As if that mattered.

sofasurfer wrote:
> I'm fed up with my crappy dialup internet connection. Now I learn that
> I can get wireless internet if I build an antenna and if there is a
> signal around my area.
>
> I've read lots of stuff about coffee cantennas and parabolic dish
> antennas. I understand how to construct the antenna.
>
> I just installed a wifi card in my pc. As expected it detects no
> signal. So, building an antenna is the next step. But first I need
> some verication about my chances of success.
>
> I have read that a wifi card can pull in a signal up to, maybe, a
> couple hundred feet, a cantenna can get one from a mile or two and a
> parabolic dish can reach out 8-10 miles.
>
> There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
> closest is about a mile and a quarter.
>
> I can mount a antenna or dish about 15 ft up on a tower.
>
> So my main question is...Is it true that its possible to access the
> internet in this way?
>
> If this is possible, I can understand aquiring a signal from a strong
> signal source. But is a signal from MY source...my pc and wireless
> card...able to get out there to the WIFI hotspot for an upload to the
> internet?
>
> What else do I need to know?
>
I would think looking from the roof to see if you can see the proposed
source would be a start

>Now I learn that
>I can get wireless internet if I build an antenna and if there is a
>signal around my area.

Uh, so you have no idea if there is a provider nearby? Just
guessing? Are you in the city or what?

Sounds wierd. I guess that you are hoping to get onto some neighbor's
LAN ? Or maybe there are businesses around you?

Steve

On 22 Feb 2007 20:40:20 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
<sofasurfer@blclinks.net> wrote:

>On Feb 22, 11:21 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
>> sofasurfer wrote:
>> > What else do I need to know?
>>
>> How to get authentication or authorization to use their facilities.
>
>Don't need it.

If they're open hotspots which don't require authentication or
payment,

>Perfectly legal...As if that mattered.

No, actually it'd be a criminal act if you broke into someone's
network or used it without permission, but I guess you knew that.
--
Mark McIntyre

On 22 Feb 2007 17:14:55 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
<sofasurfer@blclinks.net> wrote:

>I'm fed up with my crappy dialup internet connection. Now I learn that
>I can get wireless internet if I build an antenna and if there is a
>signal around my area.
>
>I've read lots of stuff about coffee cantennas and parabolic dish
>antennas.

oh,oh...

>There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
>closest is about a mile and a quarter.

Do you have line-of-sight to their antenna? Wireless is picky about
LoS.

>So my main question is...Is it true that its possible to access the
>internet in this way?

If you can get signal.

>If this is possible, I can understand aquiring a signal from a strong
>signal source. But is a signal from MY source...my pc and wireless
>card...able to get out there to the WIFI hotspot for an upload to the
>internet?

They won't be sticking up a directional antenna just for you (unless
you're paying them of course) so you may need more signal than they're
transmitting with.
--
Mark McIntyre

On Feb 23, 6:09 am, atec 77 <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote:
> sofasurfer wrote:

> I would think looking from the roof to see if you can see the proposed
> source would be a start

That may be a problem but not sure. The closest hotspot is just barely
visible from my roof. Probably a little better up on the tower.

On Feb 23, 11:48 am, "seaweedsteve" <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Uh, so you have no idea if there is a provider nearby? Just
> guessing? Are you in the city or what?
If you read my post you would see the I said "There are 3 WIFI
hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
closest is about a mile and a quarter."
>
> Sounds wierd.

Not at all.

I guess that you are hoping to get onto some neighbor's
> LAN ?

Thats right...your quessing.

On Feb 23, 12:39 pm, Mark McIntyre <markmcint...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2007 20:40:20 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
>
> <sofasur...@blclinks.net> wrote:
> >On Feb 22, 11:21 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
> >> sofasurfer wrote:

> >Don't need it.
>
> If they're open hotspots which don't require authentication or
> payment,

Sounds logical, but I don't see that question in my post.

> >
> No, actually it'd be a criminal act if you broke into someone's
> network or used it without permission, but I guess you knew that.

Did I say I was looking to break into a private network?

On Feb 23, 12:43 pm, Mark McIntyre <markmcint...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2007 17:14:55 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
>
> <sofasur...@blclinks.net> wrote:
> >I'm fed up with my crappy dialup internet connection. Now I learn that
> >I can get wireless internet if I build an antenna and if there is a
> >signal around my area.
>
> >I've read lots of stuff about coffee cantennas and parabolic dish
> >antennas.
>
> oh,oh...
>
> >There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
> >closest is about a mile and a quarter.
>
> Do you have line-of-sight to their antenna? Wireless is picky about
> LoS.
>
> >So my main question is...Is it true that its possible to access the
> >internet in this way?
>
> If you can get signal.
>
> >If this is possible, I can understand aquiring a signal from a strong
> >signal source. But is a signal from MY source...my pc and wireless
> >card...able to get out there to the WIFI hotspot for an upload to the
> >internet?
>
> They won't be sticking up a directional antenna just for you (unless
> you're paying them of course) so you may need more signal than they're
> transmitting with.
> --
> Mark McIntyre

Thanks you for answering my actual questions, Mark. I appreciate it.
There seems to be a lot of people around hear who don't actually know
anything and so they sit here and pretend to be WIFI Keystone Cops who
assume everyone but themselves is a criminal of some sort or another.
Even if I was a Soviet Network spy, I still have the right to seek
knowledge. And if they don't know the answers they have the right to
got to the childrens newsgroups where they can handle the easy
questions.

> Thanks you for answering my actual questions, Mark. I appreciate it.
> There seems to be a lot of people around hear who don't actually know
> anything and so they sit here and pretend to be WIFI Keystone Cops who
> assume everyone but themselves is a criminal of some sort or another.

No, those of us who actually know how it all works try to ignore idiots like
you.

On Feb 23, 3:59 pm, "Bill Kearney" <wkearney-99@hot-mail-com> wrote:
> No, those of us who actually know how it all works try to ignore idiots like
> you.

How many people reading this can see the glaring flaws in Bill
Kearney's one and only contribution to this thread?

Hints:
#1) No words that actually refer to the subject of this group.
#2) An attempt to draw attention to his intellect even though #1.
#3) Displaying the need to speak for others in an attempt to draw
attention to the facts of #1 and #2.

sofasurfer wrote:
> On Feb 22, 11:21 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
>> sofasurfer wrote:
>>> What else do I need to know?
>> How to get authentication or authorization to use their facilities.
>
> Don't need it. Perfectly legal...As if that mattered.


You missed my point...I'm not even touching on the legality.

I'm answering your question.

You need to know if you'll need a user name and password to connect (where
connect refers to "authentication or authorization").

sofasurfer wrote:
> Sounds logical, but I don't see that question in my post.

sofasurfer wrote:
> On Feb 23, 6:09 am, atec 77 <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote:
>> sofasurfer wrote:
>
>> I would think looking from the roof to see if you can see the proposed
>> source would be a start
>
> That may be a problem but not sure. The closest hotspot is just barely
> visible from my roof. Probably a little better up on the tower.
>
Basically wifi does not ground wave so line of sight or the odds are it
wont work , I suggest you make a simple gain aerial and see whats about
and that you can legally access

On 22 Feb 2007 17:14:55 -0800, "sofasurfer" <sofasurfer@blclinks.net>
wrote:

>I just installed a wifi card in my pc.

Does this card have a maker and model number? "In my PC" implies a
desktop with a PCI wireless card. Did I guess right? If so, you're
about to have a problem with a long coax cable run.

>As expected it detects no
>signal. So, building an antenna is the next step. But first I need
>some verication about my chances of success.

No, the next step is to haul your PC contrivance to a window and see
if it's working. It might be broken, comatose, badly installed,
defective, old drivers, sick, or getting clobbered with inference. If
you live in any sort of metropolitan area, you should pickup at least
one or two access points from anywhere higher than a dungeon.

>I have read that a wifi card can pull in a signal up to, maybe, a
>couple hundred feet, a cantenna can get one from a mile or two and a
>parabolic dish can reach out 8-10 miles.

It really depends on the antenna. The rubber ducky (2dBi) that comes
with the typical wireless card is very minimal. Indoors, you can
reliably do about 20ft through one wall. Outdoors, if you have
perfect line of sight, you can do perhaps 200ft.

At the other extreme are the 24dBi dish antennas, which is about as
big as one could practically install on a pole or tower. You can do
many miles with such an antenna. However, there's a catch. If there
are any other wireless devices along the line of sight to your
intended target and beyond, you're going to have interference
problems. The bigger antenna increases the signal strength of
interference just as well as it does the desired signal.

>There are 3 WIFI hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
>closest is about a mile and a quarter.

1.25 miles = about 6,600 ft. That's going to be a stretch because the
WiFi hotspot is probably a coffee shop with an indoor wireless router
and an insipid 2dBi rubber ducky antenna. I can calculate if you have
a chance, but you need to supply some hardware info and topography
details for both ends of the link. It's possible that it might work,
but offhand, my guess(tm) is that it's not going to happen.

Do you have absolutely clear line of sight between your proposed
antenna location and your proposed victim...errr hot spot? If not,
what's in the way?

Do you have a clear Fresnel Zone? At 6600 ft, you need clearance of:
<http://www.terabeam.com/support/calculations/fresnel-zone.php>
about 21 ft radius about the line of sight at midpoint. If you're
15ft off the roof line, methinks it's going to be close.

>I can mount a antenna or dish about 15 ft up on a tower.

Sure. You can mount the antenna, but then you have to run a LONG
length of fat coaxial cable to prevent the coax losses from negating
the benefits of the antenna. The best approach would be to forget
about your internal wireless card and install the client radio in a
waterproof box next to the antenna. No coax losses at all. Power can
be supplied with PoE (power over ethernet). Some such devices have
integrated antennas and are made for exactly what you're trying to do
from scratch.

>So my main question is...Is it true that its possible to access the
>internet in this way?

Yes, miracles do happen. Prayer or burnt offerings might help
depending on your religious inclinations.

>If this is possible, I can understand aquiring a signal from a strong
>signal source. But is a signal from MY source...my pc and wireless
>card...able to get out there to the WIFI hotspot for an upload to the
>internet?

Yes, it can be done. However, you've only supplied one number and no
descriptions, so I can't divine if this is going to play.

Upload? Oh-oh, a P2P file sharing user. You're not going to be very
popular at the hot spot.

>What else do I need to know?

- Permission from the owner of the hot spot?
- What hardware you have to work with?
- What hardware is at the other end? Antennas are hardware.
- Got line of sight? Any obstructions?
- Fresnel zone clearance?
- Interference (do a site survey)?



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On 23 Feb 2007 12:03:01 -0800, "sofasurfer" <sofasurfer@blclinks.net>
wrote:

>There seems to be a lot of people around hear who don't actually know
>anything and so they sit here and pretend to be WIFI Keystone Cops who
>assume everyone but themselves is a criminal of some sort or another.

You have it backwards. Everyone that answers your questions is
probably a WiFi criminal of sorts as it's almost impossible to use a
wireless device and not break a law or two. For example, in Florida,
it's illegal to "access" someones network without permission.
Unfortunately the definition of access is lacking along with what
constitutes permission. Anyway, being a criminal of sorts, I simply
assume that anyone asking is currently innocent and will soon become a
criminal. Welcome to the dark side.

>Even if I was a Soviet Network spy, I still have the right to seek
>knowledge.

Yep. Data is free. Information, you have to fight (or pay) for.
Please consider my opinions to be data. Incidentally, that's the
"Former Soviet Union" type of spy. The current incantation are now
our friends and scientific collaborators.

Try the wireless FAQ at:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
It doesn't directly answer your question but there's plenty of useful
information. If you're really into learning the subject, I suggest
reading the Intel Wireless Hot Spot Guide, which disappeared from the
Intel web pile but is available (illegally and without permission) at:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Intel%20HotSpot%20Guide.pdf>
Lots of background, standards, buzzwords, acronyms, and clear
explanations.

>And if they don't know the answers they have the right to
>got to the childrens newsgroups where they can handle the easy
>questions.

I don't read the childrens groups, so I would not know anything about
their abilities to answer wireless questions. Judging by the
apparently growing number of academically inept children produced by
the American educational system, I would deduce that either the
childrens newsgroups are failing to properly advise parents and
teachers, or that they are unable to answer even the easier questions.

Perhaps the political newsgroups would be more useful. Those offer
endless arguements, without any final decisions, with no recognition
of authority, and an amazing amount of creative thinking. You can
obtain almost any answer you want in the political newsgroups.
Personally, I prefer the conspiracy newsgroups.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On 23 Feb 2007 12:03:01 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
<sofasurfer@blclinks.net> wrote:

>Even if I was a Soviet Network spy, I still have the right to seek
>knowledge.

I agree, but its worth noting that many people here (me included) have
strong views about theft of service. If someone asks a question that
seems to be leading towards such an act, they're likely to get short
shrift.

>And if they don't know the answers

Its more likely that people knew the answers, but weren't prepared to
provide info because they objected to what sounded like a plan to
steal something.

>they have the right to
>got to the childrens newsgroups where they can handle the easy
>questions.

No, they have the right to stay right where they are, and learn. After
all, its what you hope to do....
--
Mark McIntyre

On 23 Feb 2007 14:50:11 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
<sofasurfer@blclinks.net> wrote:

>On Feb 23, 3:59 pm, "Bill Kearney" <wkearney-99@hot-mail-com> wrote:
>> No, those of us who actually know how it all works try to ignore idiots like
>> you.
>
>How many people reading this can see the glaring flaws in Bill
>Kearney's one and only contribution to this thread?

You may want to consider your own last two or three comments in the
same light. After all, you could simply have ignored Bill.

>Hints:
>#1) No words that actually refer to the subject of this group.
>#2) An attempt to draw attention to his intellect even though #1.
>#3) Displaying the need to speak for others in an attempt to draw
>attention to the facts of #1 and #2.

For what its worth, Bill was doing no more than pointing out you were
being arrogant & abusive of the group and that you were likely to get
killfiled.
--
Mark McIntyre

On 23 Feb 2007 11:53:36 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
<sofasurfer@blclinks.net> wrote:

>On Feb 23, 12:39 pm, Mark McIntyre <markmcint...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> On 22 Feb 2007 20:40:20 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , "sofasurfer"
>>
>> <sofasur...@blclinks.net> wrote:
>> >On Feb 22, 11:21 pm, DTC <no_spam@move_along_folks.foob> wrote:
>> >> sofasurfer wrote:
>
>> >Don't need it.
>>
>> If they're open hotspots which don't require authentication or
>> payment,
>
>Sounds logical, but I don't see that question in my post.

Newsflash: usenet is not under your control. People can give you more
info than you asked for, or less, or none at all. Or even answer
questions you didn't think of.

>> No, actually it'd be a criminal act if you broke into someone's
>> network or used it without permission, but I guess you knew that.
>
>Did I say I was looking to break into a private network?

You implied it with the comment "Perfectly legal... as if that
mattered".

To any casual reader that would suggest you didn't care if it was
legal or not. . If you want to avoid being misconstrued, write more
clearly. For example
"I don't need it because the hotspots in question are all open-access
with no restrictions. Thus its perfectly legal."
--
Mark McIntyre

On Feb 23, 1:49 pm, "sofasurfer" <sofasur...@blclinks.net> wrote:
> On Feb 23, 11:48 am, "seaweedsteve" <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Uh, so you have no idea if there is a provider nearby? Just
> > guessing? Are you in the city or what?
>
> If you read my post you would see the I said "There are 3 WIFI
> hotspots withing about 3 miles of my house. The
> closest is about a mile and a quarter."
>
>
>
> > Sounds wierd.
>
> Not at all.
>
> I guess that you are hoping to get onto some neighbor's
>
> > LAN ?
>
> Thats right...your quessing.



Sorry, didn't catch that part. My mistake. Shouldn't have spoke up.

I'm going to refrain from saying any more than that.