we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
and the loss of recognizing 100mbps cable connections, among other things.
Interestingly, this became more visible after a recent power outage.
We have all our network equipment on a UPS (sized for 30 min up time)
and then some surge protector strips
just to basically get more things connected...
Router, AP, 10/100 switch, DSL modem,
small 10/100 switch between modem & router,
NAS disk server, desktop computer, monitor,
charger for laptop & a cordless phone base unit
I seem to recall reading about NOT putting surge power strips
behind a UPS protected outlet - for some reason ??
Any thoughts or comments -
Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
--
----------------------------------
"If everything seems to be going well,
you have obviously overlooked something." - Steven Wright
"ps56k" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in message
news:aCKSk.6365$x%.3609@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
> and the loss of recognizing 100mbps cable connections, among other things.
>
> Interestingly, this became more visible after a recent power outage.
>
> We have all our network equipment on a UPS (sized for 30 min up time)
> and then some surge protector strips
> just to basically get more things connected...
>
> Router, AP, 10/100 switch, DSL modem,
> small 10/100 switch between modem & router,
> NAS disk server, desktop computer, monitor,
> charger for laptop & a cordless phone base unit
>
> I seem to recall reading about NOT putting surge power strips
> behind a UPS protected outlet - for some reason ??
>
> Any thoughts or comments -
> Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
> --
Per one source "Surge protectors work by shunting excess voltage into
ground. If you do this to a UPS, you are risking damaging it, and it's
unnecessary since the UPS has its own protection."
That sounds like reasonable explanation. I have also added surge strips
to the UPS purely to address the need for more outlets. Perhaps we should
be using plain power strips that are not surge protectors for this purpose.
I'm also interested in this issue and what others have to add.
GTS wrote:
> "ps56k" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in message
> news:aCKSk.6365$x%.3609@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>>we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
>>and the loss of recognizing 100mbps cable connections, among other things.
>>
>>Interestingly, this became more visible after a recent power outage.
>>
>>We have all our network equipment on a UPS (sized for 30 min up time)
>>and then some surge protector strips
>>just to basically get more things connected...
>>
>>Router, AP, 10/100 switch, DSL modem,
>>small 10/100 switch between modem & router,
>>NAS disk server, desktop computer, monitor,
>>charger for laptop & a cordless phone base unit
>>
>>I seem to recall reading about NOT putting surge power strips
>>behind a UPS protected outlet - for some reason ??
>>
>>Any thoughts or comments -
>>Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
>>--
>
>
> Per one source "Surge protectors work by shunting excess voltage into
> ground. If you do this to a UPS, you are risking damaging it, and it's
> unnecessary since the UPS has its own protection."
>
> That sounds like reasonable explanation. I have also added surge strips
> to the UPS purely to address the need for more outlets. Perhaps we should
> be using plain power strips that are not surge protectors for this purpose.
> I'm also interested in this issue and what others have to add.
Where's the risk? A properly operating UPS conditions power so that
excess voltage/spikes should ever hit a surge strip chained behind it.
GTS wrote:
> "ps56k" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in message
> news:aCKSk.6365$x%.3609@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
>> and the loss of recognizing 100mbps cable connections, among other things.
>>
>> Interestingly, this became more visible after a recent power outage.
>>
>> We have all our network equipment on a UPS (sized for 30 min up time)
>> and then some surge protector strips
>> just to basically get more things connected...
>>
>> Router, AP, 10/100 switch, DSL modem,
>> small 10/100 switch between modem & router,
>> NAS disk server, desktop computer, monitor,
>> charger for laptop & a cordless phone base unit
>>
>> I seem to recall reading about NOT putting surge power strips
>> behind a UPS protected outlet - for some reason ??
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments -
>> Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
>> --
>
> Per one source "Surge protectors work by shunting excess voltage into
> ground. If you do this to a UPS, you are risking damaging it, and it's
> unnecessary since the UPS has its own protection."
>
> That sounds like reasonable explanation. I have also added surge strips
> to the UPS purely to address the need for more outlets. Perhaps we should
> be using plain power strips that are not surge protectors for this purpose.
> I'm also interested in this issue and what others have to add.
>
>
Depending on the type of UPS that you have you may get a square wave or
stepped square wave output from it and over a period of time this will
damage MOV's, metal oxide varistors, in your surge protected power
strips. Some of the more expensive UPS's will generate a sine wave output.
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:34:08 -0600, "ps56k"
<pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
Make and model? I'm curious (as usual).
>Any thoughts or comments -
>Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
I've had more devices fried by a UPS than were saved. The problem
seems to be switching glitches when switching between commercial and
backup power. The switching type wall warts are not a problem, but
the transformer flavor often conduct the glitch to the device being
protected. Netopia routers seem to be especially sensitive. Usually
it's only a hang. Sometimes, it clears the NVRAM. A few times, it a
fried router. I've also seen this on Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 routers and
similar models, that use 3.3VDC power supplies. These are usually
switchers, but there's something odd about them.
Back to the UPS end. I've had switching problems with the Back-UPS
line of APC products. I still use them (I have one here at the house)
but only after I look at the junk produced with scope (using
differential inputs to keep from getting fried). I've seen some
fairly dirty waveforms. The Smart-UPS variety are MUCH cleaner and
better. They also sychronize the switching waveform with the
commercial power to prevent another form of glitching.
For installs that I want to be very reliable, I run them on battery DC
power, that's charged with a decent battery charger. No glitches or
wall warts anywhere in sight. I like to look at the device power
supply rating, and buy devices that run on +12VDC or +5VDC. I can
handle other voltages but these are my favorites (because I also have
a pile regulators and chargers. I avoid anything that requires AC
power from a wall wart. Unfortunately, no options are available for
devices with built in power supplies that run on 117VAC. The only
major downside is that the necessary gel cells only last 3-5 years.
The ones that I installed 5 years ago now need replacement (and I'm
too busy/lazy to do it).
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:50:10 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote in <sgpoh41ks00iit4n6oqs1nqd3al1g4csuh@4ax.com>:
>I've had more devices fried by a UPS than were saved. The problem
>seems to be switching glitches when switching between commercial and
>backup power. ...
Probably because there are great differences between the various kinds
of UPS (off-line, line-interactive, on-line), and the cheap consumer
grade units (typically off-line) don't perform as well as the most
costly units. While on-line UPS is arguably the best, I've had very
good luck with quality line-interactive types.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://wireless.navas.us>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
On Nov 13, 1:45*pm, John Navas <spamfilt...@navasgroup.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:50:10 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote in <sgpoh41ks00iit4n6oqs1nqd3al1g4c...@4ax.com>:
>
> >I've had more devices fried by a UPS than were saved. *The problem
> >seems to be switching glitches when switching between commercial and
> >backup power. *...
>
> Probably because there are great differences between the various kinds
> of UPS (off-line, line-interactive, on-line), and the cheap consumer
> grade units (typically off-line) don't perform as well as the most
> costly units. *While on-line UPS is arguably the best, I've had very
> good luck with quality line-interactive types.
> --
> Best regards, * FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://wireless.navas.us>
> John Navas * * *FAQ for Wi-Fi: *<http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi>
> * * * * * *Wi-Fi How To: *<http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
> Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: *<http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
Cheap UPSs and switching power supplies can sometime be a really bad
combo.
We switched from Powerware UPS to some consumer grade UPSs at work and
the computers went crazy. When a lamp was plugged in to an outlet the
computer
was on it would strobe. Turn off the computer and the lamp oeration
was normal.
The load was only about 60% of the capability of the UPS. We figured
it had to be
a reaction between the UPS and switch power supply.
On Nov 13, 7:13*am, News <N...@Group.name> wrote:
> Where's the risk? *A properly operatingUPSconditions power so that
> excess voltage/spikes should ever hit asurgestrip chained behind it.
You know that from e numeric specification? Or more likely, because
you heard someone else say that. Is that 'he said without numeric
facts' called an honest source?
As others have demonstrated, a typical computer grade UPS does not
condition power AND can output power so dirty as to even harm power
strip protectors. Since computers are so robust, that 'most dirty'
power is perfectly harmless to computers.
How to get a UPS that outputs cleaner power? Cost is $500+.
A computer is robust because its power supply is equal or superior
to any supply inside a UPS. Any 'dirty' electricity that might harm
that computer (overwhelm its power supply) will also blow right
through a UPS supply in the $500 line interactive UPS. That $500+ UPS
protects from 'dirty' electricity that is irrelevant to a computer's
more robust power supply.
As others noted, a typical UPS outputs electricity so dirty as to
even harm strip protectors. Manufacturer will quietly warn to not use
power strip protectors while not admitting why. You might learn that
computers are not harmed by some of the 'dirtiest' electricity such as
that from a UPS. Better for sales is to let the naive promote myths
about 'conditioned' power.
"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:lOadnflGEfJ7hIHUnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>
> GTS wrote:
>> "ps56k" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in message
>> news:aCKSk.6365$x%.3609@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>>>we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
>>>and the loss of recognizing 100mbps cable connections, among other
>>>things.
>>>
>>>Interestingly, this became more visible after a recent power outage.
>>>
>>>We have all our network equipment on a UPS (sized for 30 min up time)
>>>and then some surge protector strips
>>>just to basically get more things connected...
>>>
>>>Router, AP, 10/100 switch, DSL modem,
>>>small 10/100 switch between modem & router,
>>>NAS disk server, desktop computer, monitor,
>>>charger for laptop & a cordless phone base unit
>>>
>>>I seem to recall reading about NOT putting surge power strips
>>>behind a UPS protected outlet - for some reason ??
>>>
>>>Any thoughts or comments -
>>>Don't want more flakey components on the next long power outage.
>>>--
>>
>>
>> Per one source "Surge protectors work by shunting excess voltage into
>> ground. If you do this to a UPS, you are risking damaging it, and it's
>> unnecessary since the UPS has its own protection."
>>
>> That sounds like reasonable explanation. I have also added surge
>> strips to the UPS purely to address the need for more outlets. Perhaps
>> we should be using plain power strips that are not surge protectors for
>> this purpose.
>> I'm also interested in this issue and what others have to add.
>
>
> Where's the risk? A properly operating UPS conditions power so that
> excess voltage/spikes should ever hit a surge strip chained behind it.
it was what we had already - and just added the UPS for the two plug-in
strips...
"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:sgpoh41ks00iit4n6oqs1nqd3al1g4csuh@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:34:08 -0600, "ps56k"
> <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>
>>we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
>
> Make and model? I'm curious (as usual).
>
I've had a Linksys BEFSX41 running for years.
But lately - maybe after extended power outages & UPS giving up -
the router would have some "errors" as reported by PingPlotter.
Last time, a few weeks ago - the power was out for several hours,
and my son & a friend were sitting at the kitchen table with their laptops
connected to the WAP upstairs -> Router -> DSL modem (all on the UPS)
Weird picture - candles & laptops -
I thought the router was having some weirdness with the Ethernet interfaces.
Now - the last straw - it looked like the 100mbps link to the DSL modem was
not being recognized,
yet a 10mbps cable was doing just fine....
Actually, took the cable from the laptop - locked it at 100mbps and tried
all the BEFSX41 ports.
None lit up - this was the original version with a full column of leds vs
the current model with 1 led.
Then tried with the laptop cable locked to 10mbps - in each port - all lit
up & worked.
SO - it's sitting on the floor here, and the new BEFSX41 v2.1 is running
just fine according to PingPlotter.
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:16:49 -0600, "ps56k"
<pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:
>"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
>news:sgpoh41ks00iit4n6oqs1nqd3al1g4csuh@4ax.com.. .
>>>we recently replaced a Linksys router due to flakey operation,
>>
>> Make and model? I'm curious (as usual).
>I've had a Linksys BEFSX41 running for years.
v1, v2, or v2.1?
I had customer with a pair of v1 routers, with the latest 1.52.15
firmware, that drove me nuts. I just couldn't keep the IPSec VPN up
between two of these routers, and use both for remote access, at the
same time. One or both would hang randomly. Sometimes it would stay
up for a month. Other times, it would hang within minutes.
I never did figure out what was happening but simply replaced both
ends with a pair of Linksys RV042 VPN routers.
<http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout &pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper&cid=11 15416833192>
<http://ui.linksys.com/files/RV042/1.2.3/home.htm>
Nice features are dual WAN with load balancing, SNMP, syslog, and
static routes that actually work. The data sheet claims that it's
possible to setup a PPTP tunnel, but I never could make it work.
>Actually, took the cable from the laptop - locked it at 100mbps and tried
>all the BEFSX41 ports.
>None lit up - this was the original version with a full column of leds vs
>the current model with 1 led.
>Then tried with the laptop cable locked to 10mbps - in each port - all lit
>up & worked.
NWAY negotiation failure. That's really weird as unplugging the CAT5
cable is suppose to reset the port and restart negotiation when
plugged back in. If it's as bad as you say, methinks it's had a
hardware failure.
>SO - it's sitting on the floor here, and the new BEFSX41 v2.1 is running
>just fine according to PingPlotter.
On Nov 15, 12:53 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> NWAY negotiation failure. That's really weird as unplugging the CAT5
> cable is suppose to reset the port and restart negotiation when
> plugged back in. If it's as bad as you say, methinks it's had a
> hardware failure.
Had same occur with a Linksys. At first, one port would detect the
network connection, but refuse to transfer data at 100 M. That port
worked only with 10 M devices. The problem eventually refused to
accept 100 M data on any ports over a many month period. It would see
the 100 M device but would not negotiate a 100 M data connection.
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 00:03:37 -0800 (PST), westom1@gmail.com wrote in
<a78afda6-2fa9-4525-a91b-38c007461b03@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>:
>On Nov 13, 7:13*am, News <N...@Group.name> wrote:
> How to get a UPS that outputs cleaner power? Cost is $500+.
Actually available for under $200 assuming moderate capacity.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://wireless.navas.us>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
UPS and surge protector strips 
Linear Mode
