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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2007, 01:58 PM
Don Harvey
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Default VoIP

Hi all,

I am in the process of moving my business back home and closing this office.
The phone system, while good, was purchased 12 years ago and I don't need 12
line capability (I only use 4).

I don't want to go to the expense of reinstalling this old system and want
the capability and flexibility now available with VoIP, but also a little
nervous since the business is entirely phone work.

I have broadband thru RoadRunner which has proved quite stable, but unsure
how the quality will be with 4 lines using Vonage.

Anyone have any suggestions or recommendations as far as the best 4 line
wireless phones to look at, there does not seem to be a lot available.

Any ideas greatly appreciated.




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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2007, 03:17 AM
dold@51.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: VoIP

Don Harvey <moark1@swbell.net> wrote:
> I am in the process of moving my business back home and closing this
> office. The phone system, while good, was purchased 12 years ago and I
> don't need 12 line capability (I only use 4).


> I don't want to go to the expense of reinstalling this old system and want
> the capability and flexibility now available with VoIP, but also a little
> nervous since the business is entirely phone work.


You might check with a CLEC, or competitive phone company in your area.
They sometimes bundle a T1 with several voice channels and internet, which
is a much more stable operation than VoIP on cable.

http://www.eschelon.com/voice/detail...=2608&catID=34

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 06:19 AM
Adair Winter
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP


<dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:faliji$1hs$2@blue.rahul.net...
> Don Harvey <moark1@swbell.net> wrote:
>> I am in the process of moving my business back home and closing this
>> office. The phone system, while good, was purchased 12 years ago and I
>> don't need 12 line capability (I only use 4).

>
>> I don't want to go to the expense of reinstalling this old system and
>> want
>> the capability and flexibility now available with VoIP, but also a little
>> nervous since the business is entirely phone work.

>
> You might check with a CLEC, or competitive phone company in your area.
> They sometimes bundle a T1 with several voice channels and internet, which
> is a much more stable operation than VoIP on cable.
>
> http://www.eschelon.com/voice/detail...=2608&catID=34
>

I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.

Do some speed tests and monitor your latency by pinging some sites around
the internet, do they vary with time of day or day of week?
After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up about
55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your internet
connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)
Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while
these calls might be taking place. The key to voip is low latency with
enough bandwidth to allow for all packets to be sent out in a timely
fashion.
Once that voice packet is generated and transmitted it is gone forever.
I have nothing against Vonage but don't forget to look into other providers
just as a comparison.
Find out what Codec they use and how much bandwidth each call takes and
compair that to your upload speeds.

Adair



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 02:08 PM
Don Harvey
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Thanks for the advice. I will compare the other providers as well. I got
one line from Vonage to test it out. So far it has been very stable, but
not a good test when 4 lines are hooked up and the usage is heavier.


"Adair Winter" <adairw@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:6SPzi.3505$JD.38@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net.. .
>
> <dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
> news:faliji$1hs$2@blue.rahul.net...
>> Don Harvey <moark1@swbell.net> wrote:
>>> I am in the process of moving my business back home and closing this
>>> office. The phone system, while good, was purchased 12 years ago and I
>>> don't need 12 line capability (I only use 4).

>>
>>> I don't want to go to the expense of reinstalling this old system and
>>> want
>>> the capability and flexibility now available with VoIP, but also a
>>> little
>>> nervous since the business is entirely phone work.

>>
>> You might check with a CLEC, or competitive phone company in your area.
>> They sometimes bundle a T1 with several voice channels and internet,
>> which
>> is a much more stable operation than VoIP on cable.
>>
>> http://www.eschelon.com/voice/detail...=2608&catID=34
>>

> I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
> the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.
>
> Do some speed tests and monitor your latency by pinging some sites around
> the internet, do they vary with time of day or day of week?
> After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up about
> 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your
> internet connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)
> Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while
> these calls might be taking place. The key to voip is low latency with
> enough bandwidth to allow for all packets to be sent out in a timely
> fashion.
> Once that voice packet is generated and transmitted it is gone forever.
> I have nothing against Vonage but don't forget to look into other
> providers just as a comparison.
> Find out what Codec they use and how much bandwidth each call takes and
> compair that to your upload speeds.
>
> Adair
>
>




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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 03:18 PM
George
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Adair Winter wrote:
> <dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:faliji$1hs$2@blue.rahul.net...
>> Don Harvey <moark1@swbell.net> wrote:
>>> I am in the process of moving my business back home and closing this
>>> office. The phone system, while good, was purchased 12 years ago and I
>>> don't need 12 line capability (I only use 4).
>>> I don't want to go to the expense of reinstalling this old system and
>>> want
>>> the capability and flexibility now available with VoIP, but also a little
>>> nervous since the business is entirely phone work.

>> You might check with a CLEC, or competitive phone company in your area.
>> They sometimes bundle a T1 with several voice channels and internet, which
>> is a much more stable operation than VoIP on cable.
>>
>> http://www.eschelon.com/voice/detail...=2608&catID=34
>>

> I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
> the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.
>


Sure, but this is a business use. Broadband from an entertainment
company and/or Vonage are a combination that could have him down for days.

> Do some speed tests and monitor your latency by pinging some sites around
> the internet, do they vary with time of day or day of week?
> After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up about
> 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your internet
> connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)
> Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while
> these calls might be taking place. The key to voip is low latency with
> enough bandwidth to allow for all packets to be sent out in a timely
> fashion.
> Once that voice packet is generated and transmitted it is gone forever.
> I have nothing against Vonage but don't forget to look into other providers
> just as a comparison.
> Find out what Codec they use and how much bandwidth each call takes and
> compair that to your upload speeds.
>
> Adair
>
>


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 06:29 PM
Don Harvey
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

George, that is what worries me the most. Since I am close to retirement
age, I am downsizing the business to have a little more time. So the idea
is to almost create a virtual office since this all phone work
(transportation brokerage) and with a laptop and phone can be operated
anywhere. I love the flexibility of VoIP in that the modem can be plugged
anywhere there is a broadband connection and rerouting calls is a breeze
when compared to a land line.

It may not work as I hope, but going to give it a try - keeping a land line
and also have a couple of cell phones should keep me out of serious problems
if this does not work very well.


Sure, but this is a business use. Broadband from an entertainment
company and/or Vonage are a combination that could have him down for days.


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 07:55 PM
dold@51.usenet.us.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Adair Winter <adairw@swbell.net> wrote:
> I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
> the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.


You get what you pay for. I don't think Vonage is suitable for business.

The TFire with four lines and 1.2MB bi-directional internet cost less than
four voice lines, plus four dialup modem lines.

It isn't VoIP, which I think is the important part, for business.

> After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up


No experience?

> about 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your
> internet connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)


I have 7762 down, 512 up, and Callvantage VoIP stinks. Callvantage says
they need 90KbpS per phone call.

> Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while


Running a speed test while on a phone call showed ~4500 down, but didn't
seem to affect the crappy audio at all.

http://www.testyourvoip.com runs a small codec to one of the Brix servers,
to simulate a phone call for testing and rating.

Today, my outbound score is "3.2", lower on the chart than "As bad as a
crummy cell phone call". But I'm running the test on an 802.11b WiFi.
Sometimes it is 4.2, which is "like calling next door",
but it's not. The detailed analysis is no packets lost, but way too many
packets discarded. The VoIP adapter statistics show no problems.
The inbound score is 4.3, which ought to be excellent, but the actual voice
calls are still bad.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 08:21 PM
dold@51.usenet.us.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Don Harvey <dharvey@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> George, that is what worries me the most. Since I am close to retirement
> age, I am downsizing the business to have a little more time. So the idea
> is to almost create a virtual office since this all phone work
> (transportation brokerage) and with a laptop and phone can be operated
> anywhere. I love the flexibility of VoIP in that the modem can be plugged
> anywhere there is a broadband connection and rerouting calls is a breeze
> when compared to a land line.


I also use a Cisco IP Communicator softphone. That is a better product
than Callvantage, but not as good as POTS lines. The softphone is really
the cool way to be for portability. A Bluetooth headset, or USB wired
headset, and your office is anywhere, including via 3G cellular cards on
Cingular. I have walked out of a coffee shop when it got too loud,
carrying my laptop, while talking on the Ciscophone.

I wonder if the softphone from Callvantage or Vonage is better than the
terminal adapters.

Have you looked into a T-Mobile Wifi Phone? That would work via T-Mobile
UMA if WiFi is available, like at home, and via cellular when Wifi is
not available.
http://www.t-mobile.com/promotions/h...learnmore.aspx
http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/package..._HotSpotAtHome

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/0...-wifi-calling/

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 08:31 PM
Don Harvey
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Thanks Clarence,

Good info and things to consider. I have Roadrunner which test show 6640
down and 492 up. I guess use will be the only way to really know if this
will work.


<dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:faq1fl$1p9$1@blue.rahul.net...
> Adair Winter <adairw@swbell.net> wrote:
>> I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
>> the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.

>
> You get what you pay for. I don't think Vonage is suitable for business.
>
> The TFire with four lines and 1.2MB bi-directional internet cost less than
> four voice lines, plus four dialup modem lines.
>
> It isn't VoIP, which I think is the important part, for business.
>
>> After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up

>
> No experience?
>
>> about 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your
>> internet connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)

>
> I have 7762 down, 512 up, and Callvantage VoIP stinks. Callvantage says
> they need 90KbpS per phone call.
>
>> Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while

>
> Running a speed test while on a phone call showed ~4500 down, but didn't
> seem to affect the crappy audio at all.
>
> http://www.testyourvoip.com runs a small codec to one of the Brix servers,
> to simulate a phone call for testing and rating.
>
> Today, my outbound score is "3.2", lower on the chart than "As bad as a
> crummy cell phone call". But I'm running the test on an 802.11b WiFi.
> Sometimes it is 4.2, which is "like calling next door",
> but it's not. The detailed analysis is no packets lost, but way too many
> packets discarded. The VoIP adapter statistics show no problems.
> The inbound score is 4.3, which ought to be excellent, but the actual
> voice
> calls are still bad.
>
> --
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5



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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007, 11:36 PM
Don Harvey
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Wow, thanks for the testyourvoip link, it came back as 4.4.

<dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:faq1fl$1p9$1@blue.rahul.net...
> Adair Winter <adairw@swbell.net> wrote:
>> I can't imagine anyone selling an actual T1 circuit for anywhere close to
>> the cost of what your typical broadband connection would cost.

>
> You get what you pay for. I don't think Vonage is suitable for business.
>
> The TFire with four lines and 1.2MB bi-directional internet cost less than
> four voice lines, plus four dialup modem lines.
>
> It isn't VoIP, which I think is the important part, for business.
>
>> After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up

>
> No experience?
>
>> about 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your
>> internet connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)

>
> I have 7762 down, 512 up, and Callvantage VoIP stinks. Callvantage says
> they need 90KbpS per phone call.
>
>> Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while

>
> Running a speed test while on a phone call showed ~4500 down, but didn't
> seem to affect the crappy audio at all.
>
> http://www.testyourvoip.com runs a small codec to one of the Brix servers,
> to simulate a phone call for testing and rating.
>
> Today, my outbound score is "3.2", lower on the chart than "As bad as a
> crummy cell phone call". But I'm running the test on an 802.11b WiFi.
> Sometimes it is 4.2, which is "like calling next door",
> but it's not. The detailed analysis is no packets lost, but way too many
> packets discarded. The VoIP adapter statistics show no problems.
> The inbound score is 4.3, which ought to be excellent, but the actual
> voice
> calls are still bad.
>
> --
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5



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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2007, 01:59 AM
nevtxjustin@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

On Aug 25, 2:55 pm, d...@51.usenet.us.com wrote:
> Adair Winter <ada...@swbell.net> wrote:
> > After doing a bit of reading it appears that a vonage calls takes up

>
> No experience?
>
> > about 55.2kpbs per call so that times four = 220.8kpbs. Can and does your
> > internet connection maintaine that upload speed? (mine is 435kpbs)

>
> I have 7762 down, 512 up, and Callvantage VoIP stinks. Callvantage says
> they need 90KbpS per phone call.
>
> > Don't forget about having a little extra doing other things online while


I'd have to look up the link, but I recall testing was done with the
optimum codec compression and they figured a a 1.5 Mbps T1 was good
for only twenty simultaneous VoIP calls.


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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2007, 02:37 AM
dold@51.usenet.us.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

Don Harvey <dharvey@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Wow, thanks for the testyourvoip link, it came back as 4.4.


Have a blast with VoIP, then. 4.4 is the maximum possible, using that
codec currently employed. You can see on the "view details" page. Right
now, on a wired connection, I get 4.4 from them to me, but I have 3.7 from
me to them because of "discards", no dropped packets. I don't know what
that means. I only know that what I hear on Callvantage is annoying, with
pops, clicks, and dropped digits in phone numbers.

People comment on the poor quality. One friend asked if I had forwarded
the home phone to my cellphone. I don't even think that it's my link. I
had a voicemail the other day with a common, recognizable audio dropout,
when played as a wav file from email (Callvantage allows you to forward all
voicemail to email accounts). The dropout was there, replayed several
times, on audio that never came to my house.

That was the day that I decided calling Callvantage customer service any
more about the audio was pointless. Each call is 20-30 minutes on hold
before talking to anyone (I watch the timer on my phone). The first time,
they said it was my cable carrier, based on testyourvoip. The second time,
testyourvoip was over 4, so they said they would send a replacement
adapter, which I was ready to insist that they send to me, or I would quit.
I called the cableco. They looked at signal levels, changed out an old
style grounding block for a new style, and that was that.
dslreports.com/stest?flash=1 shows 6845/534, so cable thinks they are good.
I have no stake in Callvantage, I can go back to POTS. The third call was
to ask why I hadn't received my replacement adapter, and they said they
couldn't see that one had been ordered, so they set my up for another. I
didn't get that one, and I didn't call back. Back to POTS for me.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2007, 03:12 AM
dold@51.usenet.us.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

nevtxjustin@gmail.com wrote:
> I'd have to look up the link, but I recall testing was done with the
> optimum codec compression and they figured a a 1.5 Mbps T1 was good
> for only twenty simultaneous VoIP calls.


A T-1 can carry 24 POTS channels. I would expect compression to do a much
better job than that for VoIP. But I don't think it's the raw bandwidth
that's the killer. I think it is latency, jitter, and dropouts, which are
listed on the testyourvoip detailed screen.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2007, 03:44 AM
nevtxjustin@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP

On Aug 25, 10:12 pm, d...@51.usenet.us.com wrote:
> nevtxjus...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I'd have to look up the link, but I recall testing was done with the
> > optimum codec compression and they figured a a 1.5 Mbps T1 was good
> > for only twenty simultaneous VoIP calls.

>
> A T-1 can carry 24 POTS channels. I would expect compression to do a much
> better job than that for VoIP. But I don't think it's the raw bandwidth
> that's the killer. I think it is latency, jitter, and dropouts, which are
> listed on the testyourvoip detailed screen.
>
> --
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5


True, T1 will handle 24 voice grade toll quality calls without any
compression. But the test they did came up with 20 VoIP calls per a
T1. I really don't recall teh details of the tests thought.


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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:15 PM
Dana
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: VoIP


<dold@51.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:faqr2e$q3o$1@blue.rahul.net...
> nevtxjustin@gmail.com wrote:
>> I'd have to look up the link, but I recall testing was done with the
>> optimum codec compression and they figured a a 1.5 Mbps T1 was good
>> for only twenty simultaneous VoIP calls.

>
> A T-1 can carry 24 POTS channels. I would expect compression to do a much
> better job than that for VoIP.


Depends on the codec being used. G711 and G729 being examples. I would use
G729 over any Wan connection and use G711 on my local connections.

> But I don't think it's the raw bandwidth
> that's the killer.


Partly

> I think it is latency, jitter, and dropouts, which are
> listed on the testyourvoip detailed screen.


Yes those issues also need to be addressed.
>
> --
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5




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