">
>>Lastly, some new evidence which I'm not sure if it's cause or effect -
>>I just realised that there is a very clear spike in CPU usage on the
>>laptop that corresponds to the network outages - it's not a spike to
>>100% - it's a spike from 1% to about 12%, but it clearly is happening
>>bang on every time the fping outage occurs. This spike only occurs
>>when wireless networking connection is active. It does not occur if
>>there is no network at all, and it does not occur if there is a wired
>>connection. It is not caused by FPING as it happens even when fping is
>>not running if the wireless network is active. Is it normal to see a
>>CPU spike when there is an RF interference incident on the wireless
>>network?
>
> Hmmm... Good observation. No, it's not normal. Wi-Fi network
> interrupt overhead is minimal (unless you have a seriously
> underpowered laptop). Is there anything that might make the CPU work
> harder such as lack of adequate RAM or very slow CPU?
Not that I'm aware of and the CPU was flat at 0% for all the intervening
time. It's a Dell Latitude D600 - not state of the art, but it should cope
with a few networking tasks fine.
> If the outages really do correspond to the CPU usage spikes, then the
> problem is in the laptop. However, if it's in the laptop, it would
> also have appeared at the office as well as home. I think you can
> identify the culprit program or service using the Task Manager.
> Instead of the Performance Graph, select "Processes". Click on the
> top of the "CPU" column once or twice to get it to sort on CPU usage.
> The process that eats the most CPU cycles will appear at the top of
> the list.
>
> You might also want to add "CPU Time" to the display:
> Task Manager -> View -> Select Columns
>
I already tried that, but I didn't add CPU time in - I tried just sorting by
CPU to see if any programs were spiking on CPU usage at that moment but I
couldn't identify any. I also tried closing down the programs starting with
the busiest, until I ran into accidently stopping an essential process and
the machine shut down. I couldn't identify a culprit yet in this way. I'll
try it with CPU time also. Of course, if the culprit is actually the
wireless network drivers or configuration utility then I'm stuffed - to
check for that I will need to try a different network card - actually I just
rememered I think I have a spare PCMCIA wireless card around somewhere so I
might try that.
In the office I connect wired not wireless. I am going to our US office
next month where there is wireless, so I can see what happens then, or as
you said I could also take it to a hotspot. But again it's interesting that
these CPU spikes don't happen when I'm connected wired, only wireless. I am
pretty confident about this because I sat and watched through a 5 minute
period each with wireless/wired/no network. With wireless, there is a clear
CPU spike that corresponds to when I get the network dropouts. (at this
point many others are probably thinking I should get a life instead of
spending Friday evenings watching the task manager, but there you go).
> Drivel: Try the same test for interference with the laptop battery
> charger disconnected. It just might be junk from the Li-Ion battery
> charger circuit. If you use a different power supply at work, I would
> definately look into this one.
>I already tried that, but I didn't add CPU time in - I tried just sorting by
>CPU to see if any programs were spiking on CPU usage at that moment but I
>couldn't identify any.
Try increasing the sample rate in Task Manager.
View -> Update Speed -> High
>Of course, if the culprit is actually the
>wireless network drivers or configuration utility then I'm stuffed - to
>check for that I will need to try a different network card - actually I just
>rememered I think I have a spare PCMCIA wireless card around somewhere so I
>might try that.
The Dell D600 usually arrives with a Truemobile 1300 MiniPCI card
using BCM4301 chipset. Is that what you have? It's a generally
acceptable card with no unusual problems that I could find.
Duh... Try turning off the wireless using the Fn key method and the
right click on the System tray icon, and see if the 1 minute glitches
go away. If it goes away, the glitches are definately coming from the
wireless card or driver.
>But again it's interesting that
>these CPU spikes don't happen when I'm connected wired, only wireless. I am
>pretty confident about this because I sat and watched through a 5 minute
>period each with wireless/wired/no network. With wireless, there is a clear
>CPU spike that corresponds to when I get the network dropouts.
The MiniPCI wireless cards are rather dumb. Much of the wireless
dirty work is done by the main CPU. I have customers with Dell D600
or D610 laptops and can check if they have the same one minute busy
cycles. It's possible that it would be a common trait as it would
only cause a problem with realtime applications like VoIP.
Anyone else have a Dell D600 handy that can check?
>(at this
>point many others are probably thinking I should get a life instead of
>spending Friday evenings watching the task manager, but there you go).
Ask yourself "What did I do on Friday evenings before discovering
computers"? If you can't remember, you have a problem.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> hath wroth:
>"Patrick" <nobody@nowhere.com> hath wroth:
>
>>I already tried that, but I didn't add CPU time in - I tried just sorting by
>>CPU to see if any programs were spiking on CPU usage at that moment but I
>>couldn't identify any.
>
>Try increasing the sample rate in Task Manager.
> View -> Update Speed -> High
It may also help to get a better Task Managerie. See Sysinternals
(now owned by Microsoft) Process Explorer 10.21:
| http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sys...sExplorer.mspx
It can run at 0.5 sec per sample, which should be sufficient to see a
1 second long hickup. Click the mouse on the CPU column to get the
processes that are active at the top of the screen.
1) Over the weekend I took the laptop to a hotspot and I found the same
symptoms when logged into the hotspot. That means the problem is
coming from the laptop or from something upon my person - I had already
eliminated my cellphone from enquiries, so the only other electronic
object on my person is my watch - I doubt it's that.
2) Disabling radio on the task manager - I think I already had
effectively tried this in a previous message - last week I looked for
the CPU glitches whilst there was radio disabled and no network cable
connected. The glitches were not there. They only occur when I am
connected to a wireless network. In fact, if radio is enabled, but I
am not connected to a network, they don't occur either - only when I am
actually logged on to a wireless network. Therefore this seems to
indicate that it's something specific to the wireless card drivers or
utility, or at least a conflict between that and something else.
3) My Wireless card is listed as a "Dell Truemobile 1400 Dual Band WLAN
Mini-PCI Card". The manufacturer is Broadcom. I don't know what the
chipset is. I did also notice just now that there are a whole bunch of
settings that can be changed from within the Device manager for the
network card - I never tried changing any of them.
4) I still can't isolate anything using process manager even when set
to high refresh rate, but I will download and try that other process
manager you mentioned.
5) I need to check the Dell website for updated drivers - I checked it
several months ago and there was no update for a couple of years, but
I'll check again.
6) Battery charger, I have tried it without the battery being on charge
and no change. Should I also try it with mains power but no battery in
the PC?
1. Bluetooth on that laptop? If so, disable it temporarily.
2. Run thorough anti-virus and anti-spyware scans.
3. Use MSCONFIG to temporarily disable background processes.
On 13 Nov 2006 14:02:10 -0800, warner_patrick@hotmail.com wrote in
<1163455330.043406.294330@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups .com>:
>Right, let's recap where we are:
>
>1) Over the weekend I took the laptop to a hotspot and I found the same
>symptoms when logged into the hotspot. That means the problem is
>coming from the laptop or from something upon my person - I had already
>eliminated my cellphone from enquiries, so the only other electronic
>object on my person is my watch - I doubt it's that.
>
>2) Disabling radio on the task manager - I think I already had
>effectively tried this in a previous message - last week I looked for
>the CPU glitches whilst there was radio disabled and no network cable
>connected. The glitches were not there. They only occur when I am
>connected to a wireless network. In fact, if radio is enabled, but I
>am not connected to a network, they don't occur either - only when I am
>actually logged on to a wireless network. Therefore this seems to
>indicate that it's something specific to the wireless card drivers or
>utility, or at least a conflict between that and something else.
>
>3) My Wireless card is listed as a "Dell Truemobile 1400 Dual Band WLAN
>Mini-PCI Card". The manufacturer is Broadcom. I don't know what the
>chipset is. I did also notice just now that there are a whole bunch of
>settings that can be changed from within the Device manager for the
>network card - I never tried changing any of them.
>
>4) I still can't isolate anything using process manager even when set
>to high refresh rate, but I will download and try that other process
>manager you mentioned.
>
>5) I need to check the Dell website for updated drivers - I checked it
>several months ago and there was no update for a couple of years, but
>I'll check again.
>
>6) Battery charger, I have tried it without the battery being on charge
>and no change. Should I also try it with mains power but no battery in
>the PC?
>
>We are getting closer.....
>
>cheers
>Patrick.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
>1) Over the weekend I took the laptop to a hotspot and I found the same
>symptoms when logged into the hotspot.
Well, that eliminates interference and the BT access point as possible
culprits. It's something in your laptop or wireless device.
>They only occur when I am
>connected to a wireless network. In fact, if radio is enabled, but I
>am not connected to a network, they don't occur either - only when I am
>actually logged on to a wireless network.
Weird. The only think I can think of in the driver that ocurrs at 1
minute intervals is the "power save" feature. Look for it in the
properties for the wireless device. I suggest you disable the power
save mode.
>Therefore this seems to
>indicate that it's something specific to the wireless card drivers or
>utility, or at least a conflict between that and something else.
It might also be a program or service that's checking for internet
access. If it finds internet access, it monopolizes the processor for
about a second. If it doesn't fine internet access, it doesn't do
anything, which is why it doesn't show up every minute. However,
that's unlikely as it should act the same with wireless and wired
connections. I'm beginning to agree that it's something in the
wireless card or wireless driver.
>3) My Wireless card is listed as a "Dell Truemobile 1400 Dual Band WLAN
>Mini-PCI Card". The manufacturer is Broadcom. I don't know what the
>chipset is. I did also notice just now that there are a whole bunch of
>settings that can be changed from within the Device manager for the
>network card - I never tried changing any of them.
These are the same setting as found in the properties for the wireless
device under "Network settings". Try to remember the default
settings. I don't have any experience with this particular card. The
Truemobile 1300 (2.4GHz only) is a fairly common device, but not the
1400. If you feel like burning a few dollars, you might try a 1300
PCI from eBay for about 37 GBP.
>4) I still can't isolate anything using process manager even when set
>to high refresh rate, but I will download and try that other process
>manager you mentioned.
I'm not sure it will be much better, but it does show quite a bit more
detail and is somewhat faster.
>5) I need to check the Dell website for updated drivers - I checked it
>several months ago and there was no update for a couple of years, but
>I'll check again.
There appear to be some recent Truemobile 1400 drivers. Be sure to
grab the correct version for UK.
| <http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/type.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&SystemID=LAT_PNT_P M_D600&os=WW1&osl=en&deviceid=3355&libid=5>
>6) Battery charger, I have tried it without the battery being on charge
>and no change. Should I also try it with mains power but no battery in
>the PC?
No, don't try it without the battery. The idea was to see if the
battery charger "pulsing" with a fully charged battery was causing the
1 minute glitches. It was a long shot.... oh well.
>We are getting closer.....
I hope so. I like to fix things like this by substitution. If you
can scrounge another wireless card, try it instead. Just make sure
you create a system restore point before attacking so you can put
things back to current condition.
>>They only occur when I am
>>connected to a wireless network. In fact, if radio is enabled, but I
>>am not connected to a network, they don't occur either - only when I am
>>actually logged on to a wireless network.
>
>Weird. The only think I can think of in the driver that ocurrs at 1
>minute intervals is the "power save" feature. Look for it in the
>properties for the wireless device. I suggest you disable the power
>save mode.
Worth trying, but I doubt that's the cause. I suspect something else
running in the system, even given those symptoms. I'd personally use
MSCONFIG to disable everything possible, in addition to running malware
scans.
>>Therefore this seems to
>>indicate that it's something specific to the wireless card drivers or
>>utility, or at least a conflict between that and something else.
>
>It might also be a program or service that's checking for internet
>access. If it finds internet access, it monopolizes the processor for
>about a second. If it doesn't fine internet access, it doesn't do
>anything, which is why it doesn't show up every minute.
Yep. Lots of shitty software out there. Processor spin loops are lame
but all too common.
>However,
>that's unlikely as it should act the same with wireless and wired
>connections.
Not necessarily -- it could easily be due to differences between wired
and wireless networks -- as you've noted, wireless cards typically
depend on much more host processing.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Weird. The only think I can think of in the driver that ocurrs at 1
> minute intervals is the "power save" feature. Look for it in the
> properties for the wireless device. I suggest you disable the power
> save mode.
>
Will try that later.
> I hope so. I like to fix things like this by substitution. If you
> can scrounge another wireless card, try it instead. Just make sure
> you create a system restore point before attacking so you can put
> things back to current condition.
>
OK Jeff - I have loaded up an old US Robotics 5410 PCMCIA wireless card
and disabled the on board card.
Results are quite positive.
Firstly, the one minute glitches have disappeared, so we have isolated
those 1 minute glitches to something to do with the on board wireless
function.
Secondly, the real world voice over IP performance seems much better -
I am geeting a good connection with virtually no interference.
On the minus side, my bandwidth seems to have taken a nosedive with
the US Robotics card - I'm down to about 2Meg compared to 6 Meg with a
wired connection. Also, when I run FPING, I am actually seeing more
dropouts than with the on board card - I am seeing long pings and
timeouts probably every 20 secs or so, but not totally regular.
However as I say this doesn't appear to cause a break in IP
communication. I think maybe the difference is that only one packet is
dropping instead of a continuous issue that lasts for a whole second.
However if I can get good IP telephony I may be happy to go with that,
even if my bandwidth seems to be restricted by this USR card. I seem
to remember someone telling me the USR wireless cards were not very
good? Do you have any knowledge on that?
>Firstly, the one minute glitches have disappeared, so we have isolated
>those 1 minute glitches to something to do with the on board wireless
>function.
Agreed. That generally eliminates any programs that are not directly
related to the Dell TrueMobile 1400 card and driver. We still don't
know if it's the card or the driver. That's why I suggested you buy
or borrow a 1300 card. I forgot to check with my customers that might
have a D600 or D610. Sorry.
>Secondly, the real world voice over IP performance seems much better -
>I am geeting a good connection with virtually no interference.
Ah... progress.
>On the minus side, my bandwidth seems to have taken a nosedive with
>the US Robotics card - I'm down to about 2Meg compared to 6 Meg with a
>wired connection. Also, when I run FPING, I am actually seeing more
>dropouts than with the on board card - I am seeing long pings and
>timeouts probably every 20 secs or so, but not totally regular.
That sounds like local interference. The drop in speed could be due
to massive retransmissions. Not good. Are you SURE you have the
internal card turned off? There are usually 3 ways to disarm the
card. One is in the CMOS setup which disables the MiniPCI slot for
reduced power consumption. Not every BIOS has this feature. Another
is <Fn><Something> on the keyboard, which I think (not sure) also
disables the power to the card. Last is in Windoze from the system
tray. This just disables the NDIS5 driver and may not totally turn
off the card. It's easy enough to literally extract the card. If you
suspect that it's still running, try a Wirelessectomy.
>However as I say this doesn't appear to cause a break in IP
>communication. I think maybe the difference is that only one packet is
>dropping instead of a continuous issue that lasts for a whole second.
Possible, but difficult to tell with all that packet loss.
>However if I can get good IP telephony I may be happy to go with that,
>even if my bandwidth seems to be restricted by this USR card. I seem
>to remember someone telling me the USR wireless cards were not very
>good? Do you have any knowledge on that?
No, not me. I have some experience with the ancient Eumitcom based
wireless products from about 1998. I have a few of their access
points from this era sitting in the closet doing nothing. They were
not very good at doing anything, but then neither was the competition
at the time. No experience with their PCMCIA cards.
>
> That sounds like local interference. The drop in speed could be due
> to massive retransmissions. Not good. Are you SURE you have the
> internal card turned off? There are usually 3 ways to disarm the
> card. One is in the CMOS setup which disables the MiniPCI slot for
> reduced power consumption. Not every BIOS has this feature. Another
> is <Fn><Something> on the keyboard, which I think (not sure) also
> disables the power to the card. Last is in Windoze from the system
> tray. This just disables the NDIS5 driver and may not totally turn
> off the card. It's easy enough to literally extract the card. If you
> suspect that it's still running, try a Wirelessectomy.
>
I'll take another look at that - and see if I can disable wireless in
the CMOS - I disabled it by disabling the wireless device in the device
manager.
After some delays I have some more news on this issue and potentially a
solution which I will be sure of later.
> >Secondly, the real world voice over IP performance seems much better -
> >I am geeting a good connection with virtually no interference.
>
> Ah... progress.
I had a lot of success using the USR card with VOIP, but I have not
found the cause of the much lower bandwidth. I did try disabling
miniPCI and wireless in the CMOS, but this didn't seem to fix it.
Strangely, I got very mixed results on different internet speed tests -
the BT speedtest reported my USR card as similar bandwidth to the on
board card. However several other speed tests reported it as much
slower, and as said before I can see quite a lot of packet loss.
BUT - yesterday I went back to the on board network card. I tried to
install the latest drivers from Dell, but the driver claimed that it
was not compatible. Then, I tried one thing that I had not done before
- in the device manager wireless card options I disabled a number of
options that I felt were not needed - e.g. Bluetooth sharing, anything
to do with 802.11b, and automatic wake up support for network card
when in standby(these are options that can only be accessed from device
manager and not from the wireless card program). Eureka - the one
minute timed second long glitches seem to have disappeared. I will try
this out with real world VOIP later on today to confirm.
Re: VOIP Degradation on Wireless Network 
Linear Mode
