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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 01:48 AM
sillyputty
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Default why is SMA cable so expensive?

I have a D-link ANT24-0700 2.4GHz Omni-Directional 7dBi indoor
antenna. It has a 6ft. cable that I want to add an extension to so I
have more area to move it for a better signal. I checked various
websites for prices of SMA cables and found even a short cable isn't
cheap. For example http://www.smacables.com/ wants $21 for a 10ft.
cable.

Also, I was told by one website's tech support that adding more cable
length will cause signal loss. Why is SMA cable expensive and will
more length really degrade the signal to a significant degree? Thanks.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 04:02 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

sillyputty <karmictaragem@2die4.com> hath wroth:

>I have a D-link ANT24-0700 2.4GHz Omni-Directional 7dBi indoor
>antenna. It has a 6ft. cable that I want to add an extension to so I
>have more area to move it for a better signal.


<http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=416>

Hmmm... There's a bit of subterfuge in the specs. The antenna gain
is 7dBi. However doesn't include the 1.5meters of RG-316 coax, which
has a loss of about 1.1dB/meter or -1.65dB loss. What you really have
is a 5.35dBi gain antenna.

>I checked various
>websites for prices of SMA cables and found even a short cable isn't
>cheap. For example http://www.smacables.com/ wants $21 for a 10ft.
>cable.


Yeah, that's about right search for:
"RP-SMA extension"
to find other vendors and suppliers. Be sure to check eBay.

>Also, I was told by one website's tech support that adding more cable
>length will cause signal loss.


Yep. So do the connectors. Do the math:
type Insulation dB/meter loss at 2.4GHz
RG174 PE 1.20
RG316 PTFE 1.10
LMR195 Foam 0.56

If you add 3 meters of extension cable, the ADDED loss would be:
type loss final antenna gain
dB in dBi
RG174 3.6 1.75
RG316 3.3 2.05
LMR195 1.68 3.67
Now you know why coax cables on external antenna are so short.

>Why is SMA cable expensive


LG316 cable in bulk costs about $0.50/ft. RF Industries RP-SMA
connectors are about $5/ea. So, you have a parts cost of about $15
per pigtail. I'm not sure how much to add for labor because building
pigtails is really tedious and time consuming with all the cable end
preparation and crimping. Add a few dollars for sweep testing the
final assembly.

>will
>more length really degrade the signal to a significant degree? Thanks.


Do the math. 6dB is equal to half the range. 3dB is equal to 0.7
times the range. You're starting with a 7dBi antenna. I've added the
1.65dB loss that DLink conveniently ignored, and the approximately 2dB
loss that you proposed to add, for a total of of 3.7dB coax loss.
That's about a 0.78 times decrease in range. Not too horrible a loss.
The improved location of the antenna will also be a benefit. I would
say it won't hurt to add 3 meters more coax.

Incidentally, I'm not a big fan of omni antennas for improving range
and performance. Look into directional antennas for far more gain.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007, 09:48 AM
sillyputty
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

Thanks for the info! Gonna try a DIY directional antenna. :)
--
"Your estimated wait time is 8 minutes; your actual wait time may
vary." MS tech support


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Old 08-09-2007, 12:00 PM
dold@92.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

sillyputty <karmictaragem@2die4.com> wrote:
> I have a D-link ANT24-0700 2.4GHz Omni-Directional 7dBi indoor
> antenna. It has a 6ft. cable that I want to add an extension to so I
> have more area to move it for a better signal.


You could add a free reflector instead of a cable. Maybe instead of the
7db antenna.

http://www.freeantennas.com EZ-12, printed on photo paper for thick stock,
with aluminum foil glued to the sail, provides a substantial boost in
signal. http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/EZ12-windsurfer.jpg
http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/w...fer-dining.JPG The signal with
the reflector is not only 13dB stronger, it's more stable.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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Old 08-10-2007, 08:09 AM
sillyputty
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Aug 9, 5:00 am, d...@92.usenet.us.com wrote:

> You could add a free reflector instead of a cable. Maybe instead of the
> 7db antenna.
>
> http://www.freeantennas.comEZ-12, printed on photo paper for thick stock,
> with aluminum foil glued to the sail, provides a substantial boost in
> signal. http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/E...-dining.JPGThe signal with
> the reflector is not only 13dB stronger, it's more stable.


I made a 'windsurfer' reflector and did a few initials tests (turned
it in different directions), but really couldn't tell if it made a
difference, though I did pick up a couple signals I hadn't before. My
question is the reflector is 4.5" inches high and my antenna is 11".
Can I make a longer reflector to match the length of my antenna or
does it have to be a certain size?




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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2007, 05:56 PM
dold@92.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

sillyputty <karmictaragem@2die4.com> wrote:
> I made a 'windsurfer' reflector and did a few initials tests (turned
> it in different directions), but really couldn't tell if it made a
> difference, though I did pick up a couple signals I hadn't before. My
> question is the reflector is 4.5" inches high and my antenna is 11".
> Can I make a longer reflector to match the length of my antenna or
> does it have to be a certain size?


I would say that you need to cover all of the antenna. Some portion of the
assembly near the base might not be an active part of the antenna, but
covering less than half of your antenna is probably not good at all.

The parabolic reflectors scale in size. If you simply enlarge the
template, your curve will be larger, and the focal point of the parabola
will be farther out, scaled up on the drawing of the support part.

In the "original" part of the www.freeantennas.com web site, there is a
separate template for a 5/8 wave whip, instead of the common dipole. I
don't know if your large antenna is still a dipole. There are some
pictures, and a link to a bunch more, at the bottom of the page.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2007, 09:53 PM
sillyputty
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Aug 10, 10:56 am, d...@92.usenet.us.com wrote:

> I would say that you need to cover all of the antenna. Some portion of the
> assembly near the base might not be an active part of the antenna, but
> covering less than half of your antenna is probably not good at all.
>
> The parabolic reflectors scale in size. If you simply enlarge the
> template, your curve will be larger, and the focal point of the parabola
> will be farther out, scaled up on the drawing of the support part.
>
> In the "original" part of thewww.freeantennas.comweb site, there is a
> separate template for a 5/8 wave whip, instead of the common dipole. I
> don't know if your large antenna is still a dipole. There are some
> pictures, and a link to a bunch more, at the bottom of the page.


Ok, thanks. I assume changing the size and curve of the reflector
moves the focal point, and the focal point should be where the antenna
is? Also, some designs use metal mesh. Is there any difference between
metal mesh and tin foil?




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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2007, 02:36 AM
nevtxjustin@gmail.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Aug 10, 4:53 pm, sillyputty <karmictara...@2die4.com> wrote:
> Also, some designs use metal mesh. Is there any difference between
> metal mesh and tin foil?


As long as the distance of the wires in the mesh is less than a
quarter wavelength, then no significant difference.

But, lets say you have a 36" wide by 28" tall GRID antenna that looks
like a BBQ grill, it will have a 29 dB gain where a smaller 24" full
metal dish will have about the same gain.

When you get into the four and six foot dishes, the mesh/grid doesn't
appear to be as strong. Another reason is ice build up on a grid
antenna. For good measure, I keep my four foots dishes waxed to that
ice slides off, but this isn't really a concern for most people as a
four foot dish will retail for about $1,500.

I really hate using Google Groups, but appears my ISP isn't
downloading the alt.internet.wireless anymore.



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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2007, 03:15 AM
nevtxjustin@gmail.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Aug 10, 12:56 pm, d...@92.usenet.us.com wrote:
> The parabolic reflectors scale in size. If you simply enlarge the
> template, your curve will be larger, and the focal point of the parabola
> will be farther out, scaled up on the drawing of the support part.


Just a thought, one could take a hard rubber beach ball and cut it
half, then cover the inside with aluminum foil. It would be more
forgiving in feed horn placement (just aim the whole dish for best
signal).


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2007, 06:36 PM
dold@92.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

sillyputty <karmictaragem@2die4.com> wrote:
> Ok, thanks. I assume changing the size and curve of the reflector
> moves the focal point, and the focal point should be where the antenna
> is? Also, some designs use metal mesh. Is there any difference between
> metal mesh and tin foil?


Resizing the template gives a larger curve, and the focal point, as noted
on the enlarged printed template, is moved out, so it is in the correct
spot for the larger curve.

Mesh and solid are the same, as long as the mesh is small enough for the
frequency that you are working with. The freeantennas page suggests a 1/4"
mesh. The mesh should be closer than 1/10 of a wavelength, or almost 1/2"
for 802.11b.

Noted on the www.freeantennas.com home page, at the bottom,
"Undoubtedly the best implementation of the Parabolic Template Design I've
seen so far." http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/parabolic.htm
Is a fine mesh parabolic.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2007, 06:42 PM
dold@92.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

nevtxjustin@gmail.com wrote:
> Just a thought, one could take a hard rubber beach ball and cut it
> half, then cover the inside with aluminum foil. It would be more
> forgiving in feed horn placement (just aim the whole dish for best
> signal).


A parabola is a different shape than a beach ball.
There is a suggestion that a common wok or salad spinner is a better shape.
http://www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz/

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2007, 02:37 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

dold@92.usenet.us.com hath wroth:

>Mesh and solid are the same, as long as the mesh is small enough for the
>frequency that you are working with. The freeantennas page suggests a 1/4"
>mesh. The mesh should be closer than 1/10 of a wavelength, or almost 1/2"
>for 802.11b.


I've been wondering where the 1/10th wavelength rule of thumb came
from. So, I just wasted the last 30 minutes Googling for references
and another 30 minutes digging through my text books. It's all over
the place, but never really explained. As near as I can guess(tm) it
came from the radio telescope designers, that needed a magic tolerance
for the smoothness of the parabolic dish (i.e. deviation from perfect
parabola). Same with optical telescopes, where the reflector has to
be within 1/10th of the wavelength of light to be usable. Why 1/10th?
I dunno.

However, that's flatness, not grid spacing. My guess(tm) is that the
flatness specification magically morphed into a grid spacing
specification, with little effort.

Next, I stumbled over to the junk pile, evicted the spiders, and
measured the spacing on various welded wire dishes (mostly
PacWireless). 2.4cm center to center, although it did vary somewhat
from dish to dish and across the surface of the larger dishes.
2.4cm / 12.5cm = 0.19 = 20%
So much for the 10% rule-of-thumb.

So, I dug out the antenna muddling program (4NEC2) and proceeded to
fumble around with a simple parabola with various grid spacing. I
didn't see a visible change to the gain pattern or phase distribution
until the grid spacing was beyond about 0.6 wavelength. Even then, it
was minor until about 0.8 wavelengths.

Next, I asked myself if it was better to have a very tight mesh (small
grid spacing) but with high irregularity, such as found with trying to
get welded wire mesh to conform to a parabola, or if was better to
have wide spacing, but a better approximation of a parabola using much
fewer wires. As expected, the dense, but irregular tight mesh had
lots of strange lobes in strange places, but they were minor and did
not affect the main lobe in the slightest. In other words, they're
the same. (I'll guess I'll have to stop complaining about wrinkle
finish aluminum foil reflectors.)

Going to the sacred online book of microwave antennas at:
<http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/contents.htm>
I find that focal length accuracy is the most critical dimension, with
feed illumination angle a close second. I won't delve on the details,
but I should point out that these are two items that are being
literally ignored by the typical parabolic reflector that uses an
omnidirectional antenna (or a USB dongle) as a feed.

So what's the problem? Well, there is none. The errors introduced by
focal length inaccuracy (i.e. sloppy dish construction) are perhaps
1-2dB at worst. That's fatal for a satellite dish or high reliability
terrestrial link, but perfectly acceptable for a typical Wi-Fi system.

Feed illumination is a more serious problem, as much of the RF
generated by the omni antenna (or USB dongle) goes drifting off in a
useless direction. My guess was about 5-6dB gain loss, but only in
the transmit direction. In receive, all of the energy that hits the
dish, also hits the feed antenna. So, it's asymmetrical, but can be
compensated for by cranking up the tx power.

Conclusion: Use 0.2 grid spacing (about 2.5cm) for now. Don't worry
too much about precision. Try to build a proper matched feed for the
dish, but if that fails, the omni or USB dongle will still sorta
function. Any manner of gain is better than the stock rubber ducky
antenna.

Let's do the math. Pretend we have a parabolic reflect wrapped around
an omni antenna feed as in the various FreeAntenna models. The
illumination angle of the dish is about 120 degrees at best. That's
1/3 of a full circle, so 2/3's of the tx power goes off to who knows
where. Gain loss is:
10 * log (0.3333) = -4.77dB
So, the tx gain of such an antenna will about 5 dB less than the
receive gain.

I've never bothered to measure this one:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Misc/slides/lantern-reflector.html>
and probably never will. It is closer to a hemispherical section,
than a parabolic section. It sorta works, but I did it more for a
joke than for anything practical or useful. Also, the aluminum is
very rigid and difficult to bend into a parabolic shape.

>Noted on the www.freeantennas.com home page, at the bottom,
>"Undoubtedly the best implementation of the Parabolic Template Design I've
>seen so far." http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/parabolic.htm
>Is a fine mesh parabolic.


Nice. However, the large size JPG images are missing from the web
pile.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Mark McIntyre
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:37:13 -0700, in alt.internet.wireless , Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

>Same with optical telescopes, where the reflector has to
>be within 1/10th of the wavelength of light to be usable. Why 1/10th?
>I dunno.


I think you'll find its simply to do with the best accuracy of early
testing techniques. The Ronchi test (and derivants) will get you to
1/10th wave. As far as I remember, 1/4 wave will do for optical work
(the Rayleigh Limit), anything less is a bonus and focus tends to be
diffraction-limited.
--
Mark McIntyre

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Old 08-13-2007, 06:33 AM
nevtxjustin@yahoo.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Aug 11, 1:42 pm, d...@92.usenet.us.com wrote:
> nevtxjus...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Just a thought, one could take a hard rubber beach ball and cut it
> > half, then cover the inside with aluminum foil. It would be more
> > forgiving in feed horn placement (just aim the whole dish for best
> > signal).

>
> A parabola is a different shape than a beach ball.
> There is a suggestion that a common wok or salad spinner is a better shape.http://www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz/


Well...yeah, they are two different shapes. I didn't say they were. I
said you could use a beach ball (half of a sphere) for an antenna
reflector, if not better than a wok as you really have no idea what
kind of curve it would be.



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Old 08-13-2007, 07:13 PM
dold@92.usenet.us.com
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> I've been wondering where the 1/10th wavelength rule of thumb came
> from. So, I just wasted the last 30 minutes Googling for references
> and another 30 minutes digging through my text books. It's all over
> the place, but never really explained.


Gotta love those rules of thumb. I remember it from my radar days, but
that's so long ago that all I remember is thumbs. I thought spacing
larger than 1/4 wave was transparent, allowing radio to pass through the
walls of a rebar-reinforced building, for instance. What's the spacing for
insulators in a guy wire on an active radio tower? I can't remember if the
spacing was for the those radio frequencies, or if they had to accommodate
our radar frequency as well.

> Next, I stumbled over to the junk pile, evicted the spiders, and
> measured the spacing on various welded wire dishes (mostly
> PacWireless). 2.4cm center to center, although it did vary somewhat
> from dish to dish and across the surface of the larger dishes.
> 2.4cm / 12.5cm = 0.19 = 20%
> So much for the 10% rule-of-thumb.


I looked at a picture on the pacwireless web site, counted bars, and did
some math. I shrugged, 'cause I didn't like that answer ;-)
I presumed that it wasn't a dish, but an array of parasitic elements, like
a TV antenna. (If reality doesn't fit presumptions, change the reality.)

> So, I dug out the antenna muddling program (4NEC2) and proceeded to
> fumble around with a simple parabola with various grid spacing. I
> didn't see a visible change to the gain pattern or phase distribution
> until the grid spacing was beyond about 0.6 wavelength. Even then, it
> was minor until about 0.8 wavelengths.


I know that model is a wonder of modern mathematics, but I don't always
believe it. As you noted somewhere that I snipped, this isn't satellite,
and lots of real garbage "works" for WiFi.

> the same. (I'll guess I'll have to stop complaining about wrinkle
> finish aluminum foil reflectors.)


I've retired the ones that you noticed, but I did recently wrap foil around
a CDROM case for a USB cantenna. It was kinda wrinkly.

> >seen so far." http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/parabolic.htm


> Nice. However, the large size JPG images are missing from the web
> pile.


I thought I looked at it when I posted the link, when I was trying
to see the mesh size used. Ah, some of them are there, some aren't.
http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/parabolic/rear.jpg shows the tiny mesh.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2007, 08:44 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Default Re: why is SMA cable so expensive?

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:13:52 +0000 (UTC), in alt.internet.wireless ,
dold@92.usenet.us.com wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> I've been wondering where the 1/10th wavelength rule of thumb came
>> from.

>
>Gotta love those rules of thumb. I remember it from my radar days, but
>that's so long ago that all I remember is thumbs. I thought spacing
>larger than 1/4 wave was transparent,


The Rayleigh Limit.

--
Mark McIntyre

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