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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2007, 09:30 PM
deepdark@onvol.net
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Default Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

Can anyone suggest a solution to extreme slowness of internet access
when using wifi on MSI router RG60G? When the computer is wired to the
router via ethernet, internet is very fast. The router is connected to
a cable modem with a dynamic IP address.

I have tried all channels.

The computer is just next to the wifi router, so interference should
not be a problem. Signal strength is "Excellent."

The router is installed as purchased, with no additional configuration
(no encryption, no port forwarding, nothing).

The computer has the built-in Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG.

The computer works BEAUTIFULLY with any other wifi hotspot other than
my own.

The latest firmware from MSI's site is the same as the one installed on
the router.

If I connect the computer to the router with an ethernet cable, the
computer gets only a slightly different NAT'ed IP address
(192.168.1.160 instead of 192.168.1.122 when using wifi). Yet with
wireless, it is disastrously slow (2-3 kB/s).

Does anyone have any, even crazy idea what could possibly be wrong? I
accept anything except answers involving aliens from outer space. Thank
you.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2007, 10:27 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

deepdark@onvol.net hath wroth:

>Can anyone suggest a solution to extreme slowness of internet access
>when using wifi on MSI router RG60G? When the computer is wired to the
>router via ethernet, internet is very fast. The router is connected to
>a cable modem with a dynamic IP address.


<http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/communication/cmu/pro_cmu_detail.php?UID=632>
Try turning OFF:
1. 802.11b compatibility mode.
2. Turbo-G features.

>I have tried all channels.
>The computer is just next to the wifi router, so interference should
>not be a problem. Signal strength is "Excellent."


Ok, it's not interference.

>The router is installed as purchased, with no additional configuration
>(no encryption, no port forwarding, nothing).


How fast does the configuration web page come up? Can you switch from
page to page in the configuration at reasonably fast speeds (or
similar speeds to what you got with a direct ethernet connection)?

>The computer has the built-in Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG.
>The computer works BEAUTIFULLY with any other wifi hotspot other than
>my own.


OK, then it's not the computah. Are you using Windoze Wireless Zero
Config or Intel Proset on this laptop? If Proset, 9.x was a bit
weird, but 10.x is just fine.

>The latest firmware from MSI's site is the same as the one installed on
>the router.


That would have been too easy. Have you tried a hard reset to
defaults and starting over from scratch?

>If I connect the computer to the router with an ethernet cable, the
>computer gets only a slightly different NAT'ed IP address
>(192.168.1.160 instead of 192.168.1.122 when using wifi). Yet with
>wireless, it is disastrously slow (2-3 kB/s).


Ouch. That's 16 to 24Kbits/sec. It should be perhaps 25Mbits/sec at
a 54mbit/sec association. I'm suprised it works at all. The Intel
Proset utilities have a diagnostics and logging page. See if you're
getting any errors.

>Does anyone have any, even crazy idea what could possibly be wrong? I
>accept anything except answers involving aliens from outer space. Thank
>you.


Never underestimate the power and influence of aliens from outer
space. Dunno. You might want to try it in some other room or house
just to make sure your router is not located in the path of the alien
wi-fi jammer ray gun. A basement or inside room might be best. If
you want to waste some time, try loading a fresh firmware image even
though the version numbers are the same. The installed image might be
corrupted. Otherwise, it seems broken and should be returned or
recycled.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 06:25 AM
deepdark@onvol.net
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

Thank you for the message!

> Try turning OFF:
> 1. 802.11b compatibility mode.
> 2. Turbo-G features.


These options are not available on the router. I switched off Turbo on
the wifi adapter, though.

> How fast does the configuration web page come up? Can you switch from
> page to page in the configuration at reasonably fast speeds (or
> similar speeds to what you got with a direct ethernet connection)?


When it's wired, it comes up very fast. Wireless, it's erratic and
sometimes the configuration page doesn't want to come up at all.
Strangely, some local websites here where I live come up fast when
using wifi - maybe aliens ARE involved... :(

> OK, then it's not the computah. Are you using Windoze Wireless Zero
> Config or Intel Proset on this laptop? If Proset, 9.x was a bit
> weird, but 10.x is just fine.


Zero Config...

> That would have been too easy. Have you tried a hard reset to
> defaults and starting over from scratch?


More than a few times...

> The Intel Proset utilities have a diagnostics and logging page.


Now that's a promising advice. Thank you. I'll try it.

> Never underestimate the power and influence of aliens from outer
> space. Dunno. You might want to try it in some other room or house
> just to make sure your router is not located in the path of the alien
> wi-fi jammer ray gun.


:))

> If you want to waste some time, try loading a fresh firmware image even
> though the version numbers are the same. The installed image might be
> corrupted. Otherwise, it seems broken and should be returned or
> recycled.


Yes, I installed the latest firmware although it's the same as the one
on the router...

Thanks again!


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 07:11 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

deepdark@onvol.net hath wroth:

>When it's wired, it comes up very fast. Wireless, it's erratic and
>sometimes the configuration page doesn't want to come up at all.
>Strangely, some local websites here where I live come up fast when
>using wifi - maybe aliens ARE involved... :(


The local web sites are coming fast because they're in your browser
cache. Flush the cache and they'll be as slow as the rest.

The fact that configuration web pages are slow via wireless and fast
via ethernet eliminates the router WAN connection as the culprit
taking the internet out of the picture. It's definately a wireless
problem. My guess(tm) is the router is sick sick sick.

>> The Intel Proset utilities have a diagnostics and logging page.

>Now that's a promising advice. Thank you. I'll try it.


I don't think you'll see much there. Look for statistics that show
MAC layer (not IP layer) packet loss. I forgot if Proset will show
those. Incidentally, I suggest you use Intel Proset 10.x instead of
WZC as it's much more informative, feature infested, and rationally
designed.

You might want to drag in a friend with a known working laptop and try
connecting to your router for a sanity check. It won't fix the
problem, but it will help identify the culprit by eliminating the
laptop as a probable cause. (Avoid alien laptops as they have
incompatible protocols).


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 01:55 PM
deepdark@onvol.net
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

> The local web sites are coming fast because they're in your browser
> cache. Flush the cache and they'll be as slow as the rest.


Unfortunately, it's not that easy. This is actually the only thing that
doesn't make any sense, and the only piece of evidence that is stopping
me from throwing the router out of the window:

I use WGET to test speed, which has no cache (verified). Wired, "wget
http://www.apple.com/trailers" returns 100 kb/s, when wireless, it's
only 3kB/s, sometimes even 7kB/s. Then I download a large test file
from my ISP - wired, it's 500kB/s, wireless 500kB/s. (I live in
Europe.)

I know, it's alien-abduction-in-Bermuda-triangle-style weird stuff.

> The fact that configuration web pages are slow via wireless and fast
> via ethernet eliminates the router WAN connection as the culprit
> taking the internet out of the picture. It's definately a wireless
> problem. My guess(tm) is the router is sick sick sick.


I was already told that router is probably "faulty". I know I might be
a stubborn f*ck, but I somehow can't believe this router is "faulty" if
everything other than wireless _international_ downloads works
brilliantly.

> I don't think you'll see much there. Look for statistics that show
> MAC layer (not IP layer) packet loss. I forgot if Proset will show
> those. Incidentally, I suggest you use Intel Proset 10.x instead of
> WZC as it's much more informative, feature infested, and rationally
> designed.


I'll try that as well... Thank you.

The only reason I prefer Zero Config is the ugliness of Intel's PROSet
software. I guess I'll have to get used to it if it works better.
However, Zero Config works great with all other hotspots.

> You might want to drag in a friend with a known working laptop and try
> connecting to your router for a sanity check. It won't fix the
> problem, but it will help identify the culprit by eliminating the
> laptop as a probable cause. (Avoid alien laptops as they have
> incompatible protocols).


Thank you for your time, I'll see if I can do that too. I'll let you
know if I figure it out or break it into small pieces and feed it to
aliens.


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 04:27 PM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

On Jan 8, 6:55 am, deepd...@onvol.net wrote:
> I use WGET to test speed, which has no cache (verified). Wired, "wget http://www.apple.com/trailers" returns 100 kb/s, when wireless, it's
> only 3kB/s, sometimes even 7kB/s. Then I download a large test file
> from my ISP - wired, it's 500kB/s, wireless 500kB/s. (I live in
> Europe.)


Hmm.... Black hole MTU negotiation problems? I assumed that your
"local" meant on your LAN, not nearby web servers.

If you have a DSL connection, try reducing the router MTU from 1500 to
1492 and see if it helps. Smaller numbers are also acceptable but
you'll see a reduction in max speed. I have no idea why it makes a
difference with wireless but not wired, but let's see what happens
first.

Use a program called MTUroute:
<http://www.elifulkerson.com/projects/mturoute.php>
to determine if your router is not doing MTU discovery, if your ISP has
a misconfigured router, or if there is a broken router somewhere along
the path.

> I know, it's alien-abduction-in-Bermuda-triangle-style weird stuff.


If it were easy, it would be no fun.

> My guess(tm) is the router is sick sick sick.I was already told that router is probably "faulty". I know I might be
> a stubborn f*ck, but I somehow can't believe this router is "faulty" if
> everything other than wireless _international_ downloads works
> brilliantly.


Unless I read your description incorrectly, it's only slow via wireless
on *SOME* web sites. Is this correct?


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 05:13 PM
deepdark@onvol.net
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

> Hmm.... Black hole MTU negotiation problems? I assumed that your
> "local" meant on your LAN, not nearby web servers.


Yes, I'm sorry, I did not emphasise that clue enough although it's
probably the most important one.

> If you have a DSL connection, try reducing the router MTU from 1500 to
> 1492 and see if it helps.


It's a cable modem, but the router has a MTU setting, which I played
extensively with to no avail.

> Use a program called MTUroute:
> <http://www.elifulkerson.com/projects/mturoute.php>
> to determine if your router is not doing MTU discovery, if your ISP has
> a misconfigured router, or if there is a broken router somewhere along
> the path.


Thank you, this is a very interesting tool I did not know about.
Strangely, one three consecutive runs (from wifi connection) it
reported three wildly different values:

mturoute.exe www.apple.com
Path MTU: 1462 bytes.
Path MTU: 1500 bytes.
Path MTU: 1192 bytes.

> > I know, it's alien-abduction-in-Bermuda-triangle-style weird stuff.

>
> If it were easy, it would be no fun.


:) Guess so, it only makes it sweeter when (if) it works out well.

> Unless I read your description incorrectly, it's only slow via wireless
> on *SOME* web sites. Is this correct?


It is slow "only" with all international (non-Maltese) sites.

Just when I wanted to try out the MTU tool, I decided to do a Factory
Reset of the router just to eliminate any other configuration issues
that might be impacting the problem. In the mean time, I have played
with wifi adapter settings, of which there are only around 10 (mostly
related to power management and performance), again to no avail.

*** Now, the router is reset to factory defaults and the wireless
connection works brilliantly, international and local. ***

If it was one of the network adapter settings, I really don't want to
find out which one. I'll let you know if the problem returned, but so
far it seems wonderful.

Thank you for your ideas and kind help, it's very much appreciated! :)


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:04 AM
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

On 8 Jan 2007 10:13:03 -0800, deepdark@onvol.net wrote:

>> Use a program called MTUroute:
>> <http://www.elifulkerson.com/projects/mturoute.php>
>> to determine if your router is not doing MTU discovery, if your ISP has
>> a misconfigured router, or if there is a broken router somewhere along
>> the path.

>
>Thank you, this is a very interesting tool I did not know about.
>Strangely, one three consecutive runs (from wifi connection) it
>reported three wildly different values:
>
>mturoute.exe www.apple.com
>Path MTU: 1462 bytes.
>Path MTU: 1500 bytes.
>Path MTU: 1192 bytes.


When the error rate goes up, the routers will negotiate a smaller
maximum packet size, which has a better probability of arriving
intact. However, such changes are usually much larger than what
you're seeing. I've seen routers negotiate MTU's down to about 512
bytes. However, I've never seen it change in such small incriments as
what you're getting. Aliens again.

>It is slow "only" with all international (non-Maltese) sites.


You're on Malta? Cool. The problem might be explained by congestion
to whatever backhaul is being used to the continent. However, it
would not explain why it's fast with ethernet and slow with wireless.
I'm still mystified.

>Just when I wanted to try out the MTU tool, I decided to do a Factory
>Reset of the router just to eliminate any other configuration issues
>that might be impacting the problem. In the mean time, I have played
>with wifi adapter settings, of which there are only around 10 (mostly
>related to power management and performance), again to no avail.
>
>*** Now, the router is reset to factory defaults and the wireless
>connection works brilliantly, international and local. ***


Some routers (i.e. Linksys) require that the reset button be held down
for about 30 seconds or the reset to defaults fails. It's often
better to do the reset to defaults from the web interface than the
reset button. I guess your MSI RG60G night need a similar long reset
time.

>If it was one of the network adapter settings, I really don't want to
>find out which one. I'll let you know if the problem returned, but so
>far it seems wonderful.


Well, by this time, I suspect you've changed literally everything with
a minimal hope of putting the settings back to the correct defaults. I
guess you did the right thing by resetting everything and evicting the
aliens.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2007, 08:16 PM
alien
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable


<deepdark@onvol.net> wrote in message
news:1168209037.251647.142620@q40g2000cwq.googlegr oups.com...
> Can anyone suggest a solution to extreme slowness of internet access
> when using wifi on MSI router RG60G? When the computer is wired to the
> router via ethernet, internet is very fast. The router is connected to
> a cable modem with a dynamic IP address.
>
> I have tried all channels.
>
> The computer is just next to the wifi router, so interference should
> not be a problem. Signal strength is "Excellent."
>
> The router is installed as purchased, with no additional configuration
> (no encryption, no port forwarding, nothing).
>
> The computer has the built-in Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG.
>
> The computer works BEAUTIFULLY with any other wifi hotspot other than
> my own.
>
> The latest firmware from MSI's site is the same as the one installed on
> the router.
>
> If I connect the computer to the router with an ethernet cable, the
> computer gets only a slightly different NAT'ed IP address
> (192.168.1.160 instead of 192.168.1.122 when using wifi). Yet with
> wireless, it is disastrously slow (2-3 kB/s).
>
> Does anyone have any, even crazy idea what could possibly be wrong? I
> accept anything except answers involving aliens from outer space. Thank
> you.
>


Well, I know what the problem is but since you've excluded me I'm going to
play poker with the caveman from the Geiko commercials.

alien



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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:56 PM
deepdark@onvol.net
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

> You're on Malta? Cool. The problem might be explained by congestion
> to whatever backhaul is being used to the continent. However, it
> would not explain why it's fast with ethernet and slow with wireless.
> I'm still mystified.


Me too. ;)

I have now graciously decided to let my neighbor use my wireless
connection (with password protection).

He got a wireless PCI card, and it is working at 3 bars (Good)
reception, sometimes 2 bars.

However, his connection is constantly breaking. I do a

ping -t 192.168.1.172

and it looks like a zebra crossing - 15 successful pings, 10 failed, 32
successful, 12 failed, and so on. Can anyone point to a potential
solution?


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2007, 04:34 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wifi horribly slow on MSI RG60G, very fast with an ethernet cable

deepdark@onvol.net hath wroth:

>> You're on Malta? Cool. The problem might be explained by congestion
>> to whatever backhaul is being used to the continent. However, it
>> would not explain why it's fast with ethernet and slow with wireless.
>> I'm still mystified.

>
>Me too. ;)
>
>I have now graciously decided to let my neighbor use my wireless
>connection (with password protection).
>
>He got a wireless PCI card, and it is working at 3 bars (Good)
>reception, sometimes 2 bars.
>
>However, his connection is constantly breaking. I do a
>
> ping -t 192.168.1.172
>
>and it looks like a zebra crossing - 15 successful pings, 10 failed, 32
>successful, 12 failed, and so on. Can anyone point to a potential
>solution?


That's what RF interference looks like. The large variations and
dropouts are caused by retransmissions, retries, and timeouts. Pings
should be 1 to about 3 msec latency for such short links and constant
value.

It is probably aggrivated by a marginal signal. 2-3 bars is usually
considered somewhat tolerable and should work, but different cards and
devices have different ideas of how many bars to present. Also, the
signal strength may not be symmetrical. Check the access point for
signal strength or use Netstumbler to sniff the traffic and extract
the signal strength in both directions.

Lastly, you might have a problem with "frequency selective fading"
also known as multipath and reflectons. If your antennas are located
so that there is a direct path, and a longer reflected path, and they
cancel, you may have a problem. Try moving the antenna a few cm in
any direction to see if it helps stabilize the pings.

Possible sources of interference:
<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi#Interference>

The best solutions usually involve using directional antennas to both
improve the signal strength, and to reduce pickup of the sources of
interference. If there are any obstructions in the line of sight,
move the antennas so they are eliminated or avoided.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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