Wireless network for Cabin/RV resort

Hi, I've been asked to design a wireless network to provide internet
access anywhere on the grounds of my friends RV/Cabin resort. I
estimate the area is about 2sq miles large and will need to serve up
to 1000 people. I've setup of plenty of office ethernet LANs wired
and 802.11 wireless networks but I'm thinking I'll need something a
little more here then a wireless router and a bunch of repeaters.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what kinda of wireless network
designs I should be researching. Or if someone setup a simalar network
and can give me some tips.

Thanks Jason

On Aug 21, 8:38 pm, j_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I've been asked to design a wireless network to provide internet
> access anywhere on the grounds of my friends RV/Cabin resort. I
> estimate the area is about 2sq miles large and will need to serve up
> to 1000 people. I've setup of plenty of office ethernet LANs wired
> and 802.11 wireless networks but I'm thinking I'll need something a
> little more here then a wireless router and a bunch of repeaters.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions on what kinda of wireless network
> designs I should be researching. Or if someone setup a simalar network
> and can give me some tips.
>
> Thanks Jason

Oops sorry I meant 5 sq miles(at least) not 2.

phalanx wrote:
> On Aug 21, 8:38 pm, j_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Hi, I've been asked to design a wireless network to provide internet
>> access anywhere on the grounds of my friends RV/Cabin resort. I
>> estimate the area is about 2sq miles large and will need to serve up
>> to 1000 people. I've setup of plenty of office ethernet LANs wired
>> and 802.11 wireless networks but I'm thinking I'll need something a
>> little more here then a wireless router and a bunch of repeaters.
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions on what kinda of wireless network
>> designs I should be researching. Or if someone setup a simalar
>> network and can give me some tips.
>>
>> Thanks Jason
>
> Oops sorry I meant 5 sq miles(at least) not 2.

There are several commercial companies that do that for rv parks and
marinas, you may want to check with them....
http://www.wirelessnetworkproducts.c...FSasGgoduj2cEw
see the stuff under the heading
HD24643 CAMPGROUND Wireless Design & Consultation Service

Just an aside, from trying to do it myself at one time, it's a bitch..
everything is usually outdoors, and you have huge vehicles/bulgemobiles that
block/reflect signals if done wrong... Good luck!

j_r_5@hotmail.com hath wroth:

>Hi, I've been asked to design a wireless network to provide internet
>access anywhere on the grounds of my friends RV/Cabin resort.

Beware of friends bearing expensive and extensive projects. This does
not sound like a trivial exercise.

>I estimate the area is about 2sq miles large and will need to serve up
>to 1000 people.

Give up now while you're still sane. No single system can handle 1000
simultaneous users. Wireless is a shared medium. With 802.11b/g,
there are 3 available non-overlapping channels (1, 6, and 11).
Reliable range for wi-fi in a forest is zero, so you're going to need
"hot spots" near the major campsites. With 1000 campers, my guess is
that your soon to become former friend has about 50 campsites in the 5
sq miles with about 20 campers each. That will work with 1 hotspot
per campsite. The good news is that the trees will provide some
isolation between hotspots allowing frequency reuse. Please correct
my numbers to resemble reality.

A big problem with the 50 camp sites is the backhaul. The internet
access has to come from somewhere. The only effective way to do that
is to run fiber or cable back to some central location that will have
internet access. You can try to throw together a mesh network, but I
don't think you'll have reliable connectivity between campsites in a
forest. Even if you did, the tendency for ALL the traffic to
accumulate near the network node that's closest to the internet
connection is going to be fatal. Can you run wires? Do you have
conduit at the campsites?

The size of the backhaul is also a problem. I doubt if all 1000 users
are going to be on at the same time. How many campers bring their
laptops camping is another open question. Methinks you need to get
some projected usage numbers.

The real problem is going to be who's gonna deal with abuse,
maintenance, and support? You can't just setup this system and let it
free run. My guess is about 10% of the campers that shows up
expecting internet service are also going to show up with viruses and
worms. Someone will need to pull the plug on them or possibly help
them out. Are you going to have passwords and logins? Encryption to
prevent sniffing of private info? Most simply, who gets the call when
the customer complains?

>I've setup of plenty of office ethernet LANs wired
>and 802.11 wireless networks but I'm thinking I'll need something a
>little more here then a wireless router and a bunch of repeaters.

Repeaters suck, especially in crowded environments. Details on
request. Actually, it's not as bad as it seems. What's missing are
some real numbers as to usage, loading, and user count. You also have
the huge advantage of having the trees isolate the hot spots.

>Does anyone have any suggestions on what kinda of wireless network
>designs I should be researching. Or if someone setup a simalar network
>and can give me some tips.

Not me. I'm still sane and solvent. I also get 8 hours of sleep each
night. However, I've previously done my share of coffee shops,
hotels, motels, convention centers, events, and businesses. As I
previously mentioned, the hardware is a minor problem compared to the
cost of the backhaul and the administration overhead. (Incidentally,
conventions are the worst because everyone brings a laptop and turns
it on at exactly the same time).

As for topology, I would check on the availability of wiring. A
fairly low power generic hot spot should work around the campsites.
Don't bother trying to get coverage into or through the trees. Even
if it works, it wouldn't be stable. Be sure to include some
management software.
<http://www.mikrotik.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Aug 21, 7:38 pm, j_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> need to serve up to 1000 people.

Figure on over 100 access points for starters. But now you'll have a
nightmare with overlapping coverage from each access point.

Next, figure on marginal to zero signal penetration into a metal RV
where the laptop is. A USB WiFi dongle stuck out a window up to the
roof might be an idea

If your out in the boondocks, several T1 lines could be used for your
backhauls. Figure on one T1 per 100 users. A rural T1 will run you
about $700 EACH.

1,000 users huh? How will budget a full time staff of half a dozen
techs.

<nevtxjustin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187846649.990017.146940@e9g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
> On Aug 21, 7:38 pm, j_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> need to serve up to 1000 people.
>
> Figure on over 100 access points for starters. But now you'll have a
> nightmare with overlapping coverage from each access point.

For 1000 users, he should look into a mesh type architecture, or go with
wimax.
>
> Next, figure on marginal to zero signal penetration into a metal RV
> where the laptop is. A USB WiFi dongle stuck out a window up to the
> roof might be an idea
>
> If your out in the boondocks, several T1 lines could be used for your
> backhauls. Figure on one T1 per 100 users. A rural T1 will run you
> about $700 EACH.
>
> 1,000 users huh? How will budget a full time staff of half a dozen
> techs.
>
>

On Aug 23, 10:59 am, "Dana" <raff...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <nevtxjus...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > Figure on over 100 access points for starters. But now you'll have a
> > nightmare with overlapping coverage from each access point.
>
> For 1000 users, he should look into a mesh type architecture, or go with
> wimax.

You still have the internet backhaul problem. Fiber is most likely an
option, so all you have left is DSL, cable, and T1, where the first
two will have strict "no-sharing-allowed" in their TOS (unless you set
up a commercial account of sorts). T1 could run you about $400 each
per month if you order ten of them for $4,000 a month.

WiMax isn't set to deploy until the end of 2007, and that's only in
major metropolitan markets (where RV camps usually aren't found).

"Mesh would be a mess" © by me. Mesh works best when it can swap data
around with other virtual access points mounted outdoors...not from a
laptop WiFi cards inside a camper. Still, you have the backhaul
problem.

I really really would sub-contract the whole thing out for a couple of
tens of thousands of dollars (that might give you an idea of the
magnitude of the project you were asked to setup).

<nevtxjustin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188088378.370861.25780@22g2000hsm.googlegrou ps.com...
On Aug 23, 10:59 am, "Dana" <raff...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <nevtxjus...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > Figure on over 100 access points for starters. But now you'll have a
> > nightmare with overlapping coverage from each access point.
>
> For 1000 users, he should look into a mesh type architecture, or go with
> wimax.

You still have the internet backhaul problem. Fiber is most likely an
option, so all you have left is DSL, cable, and T1, where the first
two will have strict "no-sharing-allowed" in their TOS (unless you set
up a commercial account of sorts). T1 could run you about $400 each
per month if you order ten of them for $4,000 a month.

And what contention factor are you using to figure you need 10 T1's

WiMax isn't set to deploy until the end of 2007, and that's only in
major metropolitan markets (where RV camps usually aren't found).

Actually Wimax base stations and CPE devices are already on the market and
being used as we speak.

"Mesh would be a mess" © by me. Mesh works best when it can swap data
around with other virtual access points mounted outdoors...not from a
laptop WiFi cards inside a camper. Still, you have the backhaul
problem.

Not talking about using the laptops as part of the mesh network. Using
multiple low power access points to cover the area in question.
And as for the backhaul depending on what QOS you would offer and the
contention ratio used, 3Mbps to 6Mbps is all that would probably be needed
to offer 256k download.

I really really would sub-contract the whole thing out for a couple of
tens of thousands of dollars (that might give you an idea of the
magnitude of the project you were asked to setup).

Well if I was you, I would contract it out as you are showing you are not
very familiar with the technology and the design and implementation of such
a network

On Aug 25, 8:12 pm, "Dana" <raff...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <nevtxjus...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1188088378.370861.25780@22g2000hsm.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Aug 23, 10:59 am, "Dana" <raff...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <nevtxjus...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > Figure on over 100 access points for starters. But now you'll have a
> > > nightmare with overlapping coverage from each access point.
>
> > For 1000 users, he should look into a mesh type architecture, or go with
> > wimax.
>
> You still have the internet backhaul problem. Fiber is most likely an
> option, so all you have left is DSL, cable, and T1, where the first
> two will have strict "no-sharing-allowed" in their TOS (unless you set
> up a commercial account of sorts). T1 could run you about $400 each
> per month if you order ten of them for $4,000 a month.
>
> And what contention factor are you using to figure you need 10 T1's

Commercial WISP operators generally agree that 100 users per a 1.5
Mbps is the maximum feasible.

>> WiMax isn't set to deploy until the end of 2007, and that's only in
>> major metropolitan markets (where RV camps usually aren't found).

> Actually Wimax base stations and CPE devices are already on the market and
> being used as we speak.

But only in a few markets, so that's not likely an option for him yet.

>> "Mesh would be a mess" © by me. Mesh works best when it can swap data
>> around with other virtual access points mounted outdoors...not from a
>> laptop WiFi cards inside a camper. Still, you have the backhaul
>> problem.

> Not talking about using the laptops as part of the mesh network. Using
> multiple low power access points to cover the area in question.

OK, I didn't understand that you wouild be using a mesh group of APs

> And as for the backhaul depending on what QOS you would offer and the
> contention ratio used, 3Mbps to 6Mbps is all that would probably be needed
> to offer 256k download.

>> I really really would sub-contract the whole thing out for a couple of
>> tens of thousands of dollars (that might give you an idea of the
>> magnitude of the project you were asked to setup).

> Well if I was you, I would contract it out as you are showing you are not
> very familiar with the technology and the design and implementation of such
> a network

So are YOU suggesting that a 3 to 6 Mbps backhaul would be sufficient
for 1,000 users??? It would seen that you are the one not very
familiar with WISP deployments. How many APs do you have up and
running now?