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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 10:02 PM
P.Schuman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam : autonomous aircraft project

here is the link for the Site -
http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com...ContentID=1234
Rules -
http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com...ContentID=1239



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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:36 PM
Adam Chapman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam : autonomous aircraft project

On Apr 5, 11:02*pm, "P.Schuman" <pschuman_no_spam...@interserv.com>
wrote:
> here is the link for the Site -http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com/default.asp?ContentID=1234
> Rules -http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com/default.asp?ContentID=1239


It's a new competition this year but is planned to be an annual event
in the future. Hopefully lots of new and exciting things to come!

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 04:24 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam for autonomous aircraft project

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:00:32 GMT, "P.Schuman"
<pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote:

>I've seen on either TLC or Discovery the DARPA competition for the land
>based vehicles.
>Pretty amazing.....
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge


Just add wings? A flying Hummer? There are fewer obstacles in the
air than on the ground. They're also easier to see. However, weight
doesn't seem to be an issue with the ground vehicles, while it's
everything in the air. Also, the not so minor problem of hands off
approach and landing. Doing all the computing on the ground (with a
connecting wireless radio link) will certainly help the weight load,
but there are still the sensors and datacomm hardware that need to be
in the airplane. If my guessing is correct, this sounds like a real
challenge.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 04:40 PM
Adam Chapman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam for autonomous aircraft project

On Apr 6, 5:24*pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:00:32 GMT, "P.Schuman"
>
> <pschuman_no_spam...@interserv.com> wrote:
> >I've seen on either TLC or Discovery the DARPA competition for the land
> >based vehicles.
> >Pretty amazing.....
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge

>
> Just add wings? *A flying Hummer? *There are fewer obstacles in the
> air than on the ground. *They're also easier to see. *However, weight
> doesn't seem to be an issue with the ground vehicles, while it's
> everything in the air. *Also, the not so minor problem of hands off
> approach and landing. *Doing all the computing on the ground (with a
> connecting wireless radio link) will certainly help the weight load,
> but there are still the sensors and datacomm hardware that need to be
> in the airplane. *If my guessing is correct, this sounds like a real
> challenge.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann * * je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558


indeed!

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam for autonomous aircraft project

On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:19:37 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman
<adam.chapman@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

>I wanted a digital image to be processed in Matlab, which can aquire
>images over an IP protocol, and is excellent software for image
>processing because it is built around matrix algebra.


OK, so you're doing your computing in the airplane, not on the ground.

>Also I wanted a camera that output images in digital 'pixel' format
>because converiing a frame from line-tracing cameras into digital
>format is very slow.


There are many different types of cameras available. Most (not all)
have a "raw" format which outputs a bit mapped image. This is the
fastest mode because it involves no post processing (compression,
image enhancement, image stabilization, or color correction). You
won't find this mode in the cheap cameras, which output JPG's
directly. However, since you have a flying Matlab computah, you
probably have the horsepower to do your own rasterization in the
computah, which means you can use a cheap USB camera.

>In another project I am working on for the
>(http://www.challenge.mod.uk/) we tried using an analogue camera on an
>RC helicopter and the quality was awful- particularly we had problems
>with colour synchronisation and ghosting.


There's only one way that I know to get ghosting. That's if you use
NTSC/PAL video, and you have reflections on the interconnect cables
due to mismatched impedance terminations. Color smear is caused by
bad group delay on the same interconnect cables, where the different
frequency components of the video signal, have different (or changing)
phase shifts.

However, you're correct about analog cameras not being the right
choice. NSTC video only needs about 320x240 resolution to be useable.
No need for more dots for TV. However, if you're going to split
pixels with Matlab, you need all the dots on the screen as possible. I
suggest you look into using a hacked digital camera with a really big
CCD sensor.

>The aircraft in this project is for the ESO-UAS competition (http://
>http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com...ContentID=1234) where we are
>legally allowed a UAV weighing up to 20kg! We can't make it this heavy
>though because the wingspan would be ridiculous.


"Teams will be required to demonstrate four aspects of autonomous
flight, including image recognition, a pylon race against time,
aspects of navigation and being able to land the unmanned aircraft at
a designated spot."

Ouch. That's not going to be easy. I would be tempted to suggest big
and slow, so as to give the processors more time to make decisions.

>I wanted to put a mini-itx computer onboard to do the processing but
>the weight (~2kg) was not justified.


It's not just the weight of the board and cooling system, it's also
the weight of the power system. How many minutes/hours flight
duration is expected? I couldn't find anything in the terse press
release and the almost blank "Preliminary Design Specifications"?

>Basically I chose a camera that had a good digital quality and allowed
>tuning of parameters like frame rate, exposure time etc. I also liked
>the fact that it had a serial output, which could perhaps be used on a
>future aircraft to drive servos, allowing a pan/tilt system or even
>the aircraft flight control system!


Good logic but I wouldn't have done it quite the same way. If you're
going to have a mess of independent sensors, that all communicated to
a mess of dedicated computahs, each with their own particular
function, then the camera has to fit into the network communications
topology. If you're using TCP/IP for onboard communications, you
might want to look into an IP network camera.

>I'm only working towards an image recognition capability at the moment
>so that's why I chose a good quality camera. I can probably take the
>casing off to save some weight too. Next year I would like to develop
>a visual gudance capability, which would be really cool and far more
>accurate than GPS.


The ground based autonomous vehicles have the advantage of really only
needing image recognition in 2D. In the air, you have to recognize
and locate objects in 3D, which literally adds a new dimension to the
problem.

I guessed that you were going to be flying this year. If you're just
building parts of the puzzle on the ground this year, there's no
reason to economize on weight and power at this point. Might was well
go with your selected camera.

>I think I have my antenna setup sorted- although I have another
>question: If I use a 2-way splitter on the aircraft to feed the 2
>antennas, will there be any problems with recieving a signal from the
>ground station? What I mean is; is a splitter a bi-directioinal
>component or does it only allow a signal to travel in one direction?


Excellent question and good thinking. A splitter (also known as a
Wilkinson power divider) divides the signal in two. It's totally
passive and bi-directional. At 2.4GHz, it's just two 1/4 wave strip
lines and a 100 ohm resistor. See diagram at:
<http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Wilkinson_splitters.cfm#twoport>
<http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliter2.gif>
<http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliterN.gif>
Let's assume that there's no internal losses for now. A 2.4GHz signal
applied to the input/output port, will be divided equally between the
two other ports. That means that each antenna will get half the RF
power or 3dB. 3dB is NOT a large drop in signal level. For example,
the rule of thumb for range versus power is a 6dB drop in power equals
a 50% drop in range. 3dB loss is equal to about 0.7 times the range.
If possible, simply increase the transmit power 3dB (double the
milliwatts) and you'll be exactly the same as before.

The situation is also good in receive. There is no loss between
either antenna port and the input/output port. Every dB received by
either antenna is delivered directly to the input/output port.

There is also considerably isolation (10-30dB) between antenna ports.
This is a huge help in keeping the antenna termination impedance near
the desired 50 ohms, thus keeping the VSWR and losses low. If you can
tolerate minimal isolation, the 100 ohm resistor can be eliminated.

However, there are some potential problems. RF radiating from both
antennas simultaneously will cancel and add at various points. This
will create nulls and peaks in the antenna pattern. The basic idea is
that each antenna should not "see" each other. More simply, there
should be no position, where you can see both antennas at the same
time. That's not going to be easy with the donut shaped pattern of a
common vertical 1/4 wave antenna. The patterns will overlap and
possibly cancel. However, it is possible with cardioid patterns, such
as patch or panel antennas.

There's also the question of where to mount the antennas. On top and
on the belly are the obvious locations. However, I think you'll get
better hemispherical coverage with one antenna mounted in the nose,
pointing forward, and another out the tail pointing aft. This allows
the body to provide some shielding between antennas. There may be
some signal loss dead ahead, which will be critical during landing.
However, that will also be the point of closest approach so distances
will be minimal.

Since you're not flying this year, I suggest you start with just one
antenna. Play with it in a mockup or model and see what it does. Hang
the model from a string in a tree, and measure the received signal
strength. That will determine if two antenna are necessary.

Also, I suggest you consider separating the video, data, and control
links. Control can be done at much lower frequencies (27, 72MHz)
using conventional RC hardware. This has the advantage of being
fairly orientation insensitive. I don't think you have the 900MHz
band in UK, so that's out. 2.4GHz is it for data and video, but I
suspect that the video will saturate the link leaving no time slots
for data. If there's some other frequencies available in UK for
video, I would use it.

Gotta run... good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2008, 05:17 PM
LR
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam for autonomous aircraft project

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:19:37 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman
> <adam.chapman@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> I wanted a digital image to be processed in Matlab, which can aquire
>> images over an IP protocol, and is excellent software for image
>> processing because it is built around matrix algebra.

>
> OK, so you're doing your computing in the airplane, not on the ground.
>
>> Also I wanted a camera that output images in digital 'pixel' format
>> because converiing a frame from line-tracing cameras into digital
>> format is very slow.

>
> There are many different types of cameras available. Most (not all)
> have a "raw" format which outputs a bit mapped image. This is the
> fastest mode because it involves no post processing (compression,
> image enhancement, image stabilization, or color correction). You
> won't find this mode in the cheap cameras, which output JPG's
> directly. However, since you have a flying Matlab computah, you
> probably have the horsepower to do your own rasterization in the
> computah, which means you can use a cheap USB camera.
>
>> In another project I am working on for the
>> (http://www.challenge.mod.uk/) we tried using an analogue camera on an
>> RC helicopter and the quality was awful- particularly we had problems
>> with colour synchronisation and ghosting.

>
> There's only one way that I know to get ghosting. That's if you use
> NTSC/PAL video, and you have reflections on the interconnect cables
> due to mismatched impedance terminations. Color smear is caused by
> bad group delay on the same interconnect cables, where the different
> frequency components of the video signal, have different (or changing)
> phase shifts.
>
> However, you're correct about analog cameras not being the right
> choice. NSTC video only needs about 320x240 resolution to be useable.
> No need for more dots for TV. However, if you're going to split
> pixels with Matlab, you need all the dots on the screen as possible. I
> suggest you look into using a hacked digital camera with a really big
> CCD sensor.
>
>> The aircraft in this project is for the ESO-UAS competition (http://
>> http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com...ContentID=1234) where we are
>> legally allowed a UAV weighing up to 20kg! We can't make it this heavy
>> though because the wingspan would be ridiculous.

>
> "Teams will be required to demonstrate four aspects of autonomous
> flight, including image recognition, a pylon race against time,
> aspects of navigation and being able to land the unmanned aircraft at
> a designated spot."
>
> Ouch. That's not going to be easy. I would be tempted to suggest big
> and slow, so as to give the processors more time to make decisions.
>
>> I wanted to put a mini-itx computer onboard to do the processing but
>> the weight (~2kg) was not justified.

>
> It's not just the weight of the board and cooling system, it's also
> the weight of the power system. How many minutes/hours flight
> duration is expected? I couldn't find anything in the terse press
> release and the almost blank "Preliminary Design Specifications"?
>
>> Basically I chose a camera that had a good digital quality and allowed
>> tuning of parameters like frame rate, exposure time etc. I also liked
>> the fact that it had a serial output, which could perhaps be used on a
>> future aircraft to drive servos, allowing a pan/tilt system or even
>> the aircraft flight control system!

>
> Good logic but I wouldn't have done it quite the same way. If you're
> going to have a mess of independent sensors, that all communicated to
> a mess of dedicated computahs, each with their own particular
> function, then the camera has to fit into the network communications
> topology. If you're using TCP/IP for onboard communications, you
> might want to look into an IP network camera.
>
>> I'm only working towards an image recognition capability at the moment
>> so that's why I chose a good quality camera. I can probably take the
>> casing off to save some weight too. Next year I would like to develop
>> a visual gudance capability, which would be really cool and far more
>> accurate than GPS.

>
> The ground based autonomous vehicles have the advantage of really only
> needing image recognition in 2D. In the air, you have to recognize
> and locate objects in 3D, which literally adds a new dimension to the
> problem.
>
> I guessed that you were going to be flying this year. If you're just
> building parts of the puzzle on the ground this year, there's no
> reason to economize on weight and power at this point. Might was well
> go with your selected camera.
>
>> I think I have my antenna setup sorted- although I have another
>> question: If I use a 2-way splitter on the aircraft to feed the 2
>> antennas, will there be any problems with recieving a signal from the
>> ground station? What I mean is; is a splitter a bi-directioinal
>> component or does it only allow a signal to travel in one direction?

>
> Excellent question and good thinking. A splitter (also known as a
> Wilkinson power divider) divides the signal in two. It's totally
> passive and bi-directional. At 2.4GHz, it's just two 1/4 wave strip
> lines and a 100 ohm resistor. See diagram at:
> <http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Wilkinson_splitters.cfm#twoport>
> <http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliter2.gif>
> <http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliterN.gif>
> Let's assume that there's no internal losses for now. A 2.4GHz signal
> applied to the input/output port, will be divided equally between the
> two other ports. That means that each antenna will get half the RF
> power or 3dB. 3dB is NOT a large drop in signal level. For example,
> the rule of thumb for range versus power is a 6dB drop in power equals
> a 50% drop in range. 3dB loss is equal to about 0.7 times the range.
> If possible, simply increase the transmit power 3dB (double the
> milliwatts) and you'll be exactly the same as before.
>
> The situation is also good in receive. There is no loss between
> either antenna port and the input/output port. Every dB received by
> either antenna is delivered directly to the input/output port.
>
> There is also considerably isolation (10-30dB) between antenna ports.
> This is a huge help in keeping the antenna termination impedance near
> the desired 50 ohms, thus keeping the VSWR and losses low. If you can
> tolerate minimal isolation, the 100 ohm resistor can be eliminated.
>
> However, there are some potential problems. RF radiating from both
> antennas simultaneously will cancel and add at various points. This
> will create nulls and peaks in the antenna pattern. The basic idea is
> that each antenna should not "see" each other. More simply, there
> should be no position, where you can see both antennas at the same
> time. That's not going to be easy with the donut shaped pattern of a
> common vertical 1/4 wave antenna. The patterns will overlap and
> possibly cancel. However, it is possible with cardioid patterns, such
> as patch or panel antennas.
>
> There's also the question of where to mount the antennas. On top and
> on the belly are the obvious locations. However, I think you'll get
> better hemispherical coverage with one antenna mounted in the nose,
> pointing forward, and another out the tail pointing aft. This allows
> the body to provide some shielding between antennas. There may be
> some signal loss dead ahead, which will be critical during landing.
> However, that will also be the point of closest approach so distances
> will be minimal.
>
> Since you're not flying this year, I suggest you start with just one
> antenna. Play with it in a mockup or model and see what it does. Hang
> the model from a string in a tree, and measure the received signal
> strength. That will determine if two antenna are necessary.
>
> Also, I suggest you consider separating the video, data, and control
> links. Control can be done at much lower frequencies (27, 72MHz)
> using conventional RC hardware. This has the advantage of being
> fairly orientation insensitive. I don't think you have the 900MHz
> band in UK, so that's out. 2.4GHz is it for data and video, but I
> suspect that the video will saturate the link leaving no time slots
> for data. If there's some other frequencies available in UK for
> video, I would use it.
>
> Gotta run... good luck.
>

It was interesting to note that the modern 2.4GHz rc controllers
transmit on 2 channels and have 2 receivers, the antennas of which are
dipoles and are usually placed perpendicular to each other.

http://www.spektrumrc.com/ProdInfo/F...DX7_Manual.pdf

One of the teams involved in the "MOD Challenge" did a bit of work on
imaging and the problems they encountered, worth a read.
Imaging through to motion deblur.
http://www.barnardmicrosystems.com/L4E_imaging.htm



Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Adam Chapman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: webcam for autonomous aircraft project

On Apr 7, 6:17*pm, LR <l...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:19:37 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman
> > <adam.chap...@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> >> I wanted a digital image to be processed in Matlab, which can aquire
> >> images over an IP protocol, and is excellent software for image
> >> processing because it is built around matrix algebra.

>
> > OK, so you're doing your computing in the airplane, not on the ground.

>
> >> Also I wanted a camera that output images in digital 'pixel' format
> >> because converiing a frame from line-tracing cameras into digital
> >> format is very slow.

>
> > There are many different types of cameras available. *Most (not all)
> > have a "raw" format which outputs a bit mapped image. *This is the
> > fastest mode because it involves no post processing (compression,
> > image enhancement, image stabilization, or color correction). *You
> > won't find this mode in the cheap cameras, which output JPG's
> > directly. *However, since you have a flying Matlab computah, you
> > probably have the horsepower to do your own rasterization in the
> > computah, which means you can use a cheap USB camera.

>
> >> In another project I am working on for the
> >> (http://www.challenge.mod.uk/) we tried using an analogue camera on an
> >> RC helicopter and the quality was awful- particularly we had problems
> >> with colour synchronisation and ghosting.

>
> > There's only one way that I know to get ghosting. *That's if you use
> > NTSC/PAL video, and you have reflections on the interconnect cables
> > due to mismatched impedance terminations. *Color smear is caused by
> > bad group delay on the same interconnect cables, where the different
> > frequency components of the video signal, have different (or changing)
> > phase shifts.

>
> > However, you're correct about analog cameras not being the right
> > choice. *NSTC video only needs about 320x240 resolution to be useable.
> > No need for more dots for TV. *However, if you're going to split
> > pixels with Matlab, you need all the dots on the screen as possible. I
> > suggest you look into using a hacked digital camera with a really big
> > CCD sensor.

>
> >> The aircraft in this project is for the ESO-UAS competition (http://
> >>http://www.hertfordshire-connect.com...ContentID=1234) where we are
> >> legally allowed a UAV weighing up to 20kg! We can't make it this heavy
> >> though because the wingspan would be ridiculous.

>
> > "Teams will be required to demonstrate four aspects of autonomous
> > flight, including image recognition, a pylon race against time,
> > aspects of navigation and being able to land the unmanned aircraft at
> > a designated spot."

>
> > Ouch. *That's not going to be easy. *I would be tempted to suggest big
> > and slow, so as to give the processors more time to make decisions.

>
> >> I wanted to put a mini-itx computer onboard to do the processing but
> >> the weight (~2kg) was not justified.

>
> > It's not just the weight of the board and cooling system, it's also
> > the weight of the power system. *How many minutes/hours flight
> > duration is expected? *I couldn't find anything in the terse press
> > release and the almost blank "Preliminary Design Specifications"?

>
> >> Basically I chose a camera that had a good digital quality and allowed
> >> tuning of parameters like frame rate, exposure time etc. I also liked
> >> the fact that it had a serial output, which could perhaps be used on a
> >> future aircraft to drive servos, allowing a pan/tilt system or even
> >> the aircraft flight control system!

>
> > Good logic but I wouldn't have done it quite the same way. *If you're
> > going to have a mess of independent sensors, that all communicated to
> > a mess of dedicated computahs, each with their own particular
> > function, then the camera has to fit into the network communications
> > topology. *If you're using TCP/IP for onboard communications, you
> > might want to look into an IP network camera.

>
> >> I'm only working towards an image recognition capability at the moment
> >> so that's why I chose a good quality camera. I can probably take the
> >> casing off to save some weight too. Next year I would like to develop
> >> a visual gudance capability, which would be really cool and far more
> >> accurate than GPS.

>
> > The ground based autonomous vehicles have the advantage of really only
> > needing image recognition in 2D. *In the air, you have to recognize
> > and locate objects in 3D, which literally adds a new dimension to the
> > problem.

>
> > I guessed that you were going to be flying this year. *If you're just
> > building parts of the puzzle on the ground this year, there's no
> > reason to economize on weight and power at this point. *Might was well
> > go with your selected camera.

>
> >> I think I have my antenna setup sorted- although I have another
> >> question: If I use a 2-way splitter on the aircraft to feed the 2
> >> antennas, will there be any problems with recieving a signal from the
> >> ground station? What I mean is; is a splitter a bi-directioinal
> >> component or does it only allow a signal to travel in one direction?

>
> > Excellent question and good thinking. *A splitter (also known as a
> > Wilkinson power divider) divides the signal in two. *It's totally
> > passive and bi-directional. *At 2.4GHz, it's just two 1/4 wave strip
> > lines and a 100 ohm resistor. *See diagram at:
> > <http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Wilkinson_splitters.cfm#two....>
> > <http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliter2.gif>
> > <http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/2G4spliterN.gif>
> > Let's assume that there's no internal losses for now. *A 2.4GHz signal
> > applied to the input/output port, will be divided equally between the
> > two other ports. *That means that each antenna will get half the RF
> > power or 3dB. *3dB is NOT a large drop in signal level. *For example,
> > the rule of thumb for range versus power is a 6dB drop in power equals
> > a 50% drop in range. *3dB loss is equal to about 0.7 times the range.
> > If possible, simply increase the transmit power 3dB (double the
> > milliwatts) and you'll be exactly the same as before.

>
> > The situation is also good in receive. *There is no loss between
> > either antenna port and the input/output port. *Every dB received by
> > either antenna is delivered directly to the input/output port.

>
> > There is also considerably isolation (10-30dB) between antenna ports.
> > This is a huge help in keeping the antenna termination impedance near
> > the desired 50 ohms, thus keeping the VSWR and losses low. *If you can
> > tolerate minimal isolation, the 100 ohm resistor can be eliminated.

>
> > However, there are some potential problems. *RF radiating from both
> > antennas simultaneously will cancel and add at various points. *This
> > will create nulls and peaks in the antenna pattern. *The basic idea is
> > that each antenna should not "see" each other. *More simply, there
> > should be no position, where you can see both antennas at the same
> > time. *That's not going to be easy with the donut shaped pattern of a
> > common vertical 1/4 wave antenna. *The patterns will overlap and
> > possibly cancel. *However, it is possible with cardioid patterns, such
> > as patch or panel antennas.

>
> > There's also the question of where to mount the antennas. *On top and
> > on the belly are the obvious locations. *However, I think you'll get
> > better hemispherical coverage with one antenna mounted in the nose,
> > pointing forward, and another out the tail pointing aft. *This allows
> > the body to provide some shielding between antennas. *There may be
> > some signal loss dead ahead, which will be critical during landing.
> > However, that will also be the point of closest approach so distances
> > will be minimal.

>
> > Since you're not flying this year, I suggest you start with just one
> > antenna. *Play with it in a mockup or model and see what it does. Hang
> > the model from a string in a tree, and measure the received signal
> > strength. *That will determine if two antenna are necessary.

>
> > Also, I suggest you consider separating the video, data, and control
> > links. *Control can be done at much lower frequencies (27, 72MHz)
> > using conventional RC hardware. *This has the advantage of being
> > fairly orientation insensitive. *I don't think you have the 900MHz
> > band in UK, so that's out. *2.4GHz is it for data and video, but I
> > suspect that the video will saturate the link leaving no time slots
> > for data. *If there's some other frequencies available in UK for
> > video, I would use it.

>
> > Gotta run... good luck.

>
> It was interesting to note that the modern 2.4GHz rc controllers
> transmit on 2 channels and have 2 receivers, the antennas of which are
> dipoles and are usually placed perpendicular to each other.
>
> http://www.spektrumrc.com/ProdInfo/F...DX7_Manual.pdf
>
> One of the teams involved in the "MOD Challenge" did a bit of work on
> imaging and the problems they encountered, worth a read.
> Imaging through to motion deblur.http://www.barnardmicrosystems.com/L4E_imaging.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Thanks everyone for all your help, especially Jeff. I will acknowledge
you in my final report if thats ok with you

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:18 PM
Adam Chapman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: wireless range vs. power

> I've done that. You're about to have a battery problem.

Do you think an 11.1V battery would do the trick? Im looking at this
one
http://www.flightpower.co.uk/index.asp?page=Products/index.asp^currency=GBP
At the cost of another 40 grams i could use a 14.8V battery and put
some resistors in.


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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 03:56 PM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: wireless range vs. power

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:18:16 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman
<adam.chapman@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:

>> I've done that. You're about to have a battery problem.

>
>Do you think an 11.1V battery would do the trick? Im looking at this
>one
>http://www.flightpower.co.uk/index.asp?page=Products/index.asp^currency=GBP
>At the cost of another 40 grams i could use a 14.8V battery and put
>some resistors in.


Which battery were you thinking of? I'm not going to pick one for you
as there are quite a few on the site. Is this going to also power the
servos, receiver, propellers, etc or just the camera? You do the
numbers, and I'll check the results. I'm not doing your homework for
you.

The specs say that the camera at:
<http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=110_TV-IP301W&cat=48>
show that it has a 12v 1.5A wall wart. That's not what it draws in
power, but that's what the power supply delivers. Your first step is
to *MEASURE* what it really draws. Don't be suprised if you get wide
variations depending on what the camera is doing, whether the IR
illuminator is running, frame rate settings, etc. Use and adjustable
voltage power supply and see what voltage range the camera can
tolerate. My guess(tm) is that the camera will run down to perhaps
8VDC or maybe even lower if it has an efficient switching regulator
inside. Measure the current at various points and calculate the
efficiency. I wouldn't be suprised if the camera can run on a 2 cell
battery pack (7.4VDC).

Once you know how much energy (i.e. watts/time) is required. LIPO
batteries have a maximum current draw spec which should not be
exceeded or you kill the battery. Watch out for so called "burst"
current ratings on the batteries. It's the battery that will burst if
you go over. Be sure to allow for temperature variations as it has a
huge effect on battery capacity. I'm not sure what percentage of the
capacity of the battery you can discharge down to, but if you go too
far, you also kill the battery. You'll need to know this number. How
long were you planning on draining the battery, which really means how
long is this thing suppose to be in the air? If it powers just the
camera, you can turn it off for the takeoff and landing, thus saving
energy.

Anyway, do the numbers. No Mathcad model needed for this one. Just
some measurements and arithmetic.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2008, 12:54 AM
msg
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: wireless range vs. power

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Anyway, do the numbers. No Mathcad model needed for this one. Just
> some measurements and arithmetic.


Hey Jeff,

Do you have the Mathcad 4.0 "Signal Processing Function Pack" or the
smaller "EE Electronic Handbook"? From the ad literature (way back)
the filter design tools appear to provide a level of interactivity
beyond the average (probably much better than the old tools that I
use).

Michael

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2008, 05:01 AM
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: wireless range vs. power

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:54:11 -0500, msg <msg@_cybertheque.org_> wrote:

>Do you have the Mathcad 4.0 "Signal Processing Function Pack" or the
>smaller "EE Electronic Handbook"?


Nope. I think you mean the Signal Processing Extension Pack. I'm
using a "borrowed" copy of Mathcad 3.1. A former employer has the
real copy and some of the add ons. We're not currently on good terms
so I have no access to the nifty software or test equipment.

Mathcad 4.0???? The current version is 14.0. Only $1200 for Mathcad
and $345 for the Sig Proc Exten Pack. Ouch.
<http://store.ptc.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage &SiteID=ptc&Locale=en_US&Env=BASE&productID=700402 00>

>From the ad literature (way back)
>the filter design tools appear to provide a level of interactivity
>beyond the average (probably much better than the old tools that I
>use).


Dunno. It's been a while since I did anything with Mathcad and don't
recall the details. I'm also not very good with using it.

>Michael

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2008, 01:45 PM
Adam Chapman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: wireless range vs. power

On Apr 25, 4:56*pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:18:16 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman
>
> <adam.chap...@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> I've done that. *You're about to have a battery problem.

>
> >Do you think an 11.1V battery would do the trick? Im looking at this
> >one
> >http://www.flightpower.co.uk/index.asp?page=Products/index.asp^currency=GBP
> >At the cost of another 40 grams i could use a 14.8V battery and put
> >some resistors in.

>
> Which battery were you thinking of? *I'm not going to pick one for you
> as there are quite a few on the site. *Is this going to also power the
> servos, receiver, propellers, etc or just the camera? *You do the
> numbers, and I'll check the results. *I'm not doing your homework for
> you.
>
> The specs say that the camera at:
> <http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=110_TV-IP301W&cat=48>
> show that it has a 12v 1.5A wall wart. *That's not what it draws in
> power, but that's what the power supply delivers. *Your first step is
> to *MEASURE* what it really draws. *Don't be suprised if you get wide
> variations depending on what the camera is doing, whether the IR
> illuminator is running, frame rate settings, etc. *Use and adjustable
> voltage power supply and see what voltage range the camera can
> tolerate. *My guess(tm) is that the camera will run down to perhaps
> 8VDC or maybe even lower if it has an efficient switching regulator
> inside. *Measure the current at various points and calculate the
> efficiency. *I wouldn't be suprised if the camera can run on a 2 cell
> battery pack (7.4VDC).
>
> Once you know how much energy (i.e. watts/time) is required. *LIPO
> batteries have a maximum current draw spec which should not be
> exceeded or you kill the battery. *Watch out for so called "burst"
> current ratings on the batteries. *It's the battery that will burst if
> you go over. *Be sure to allow for temperature variations as it has a
> huge effect on battery capacity. *I'm not sure what percentage of the
> capacity of the battery you can discharge down to, but if you go too
> far, you also kill the battery. *You'll need to know this number. *How
> long were you planning on draining the battery, which really means how
> long is this thing suppose to be in the air? *If it powers just the
> camera, you can turn it off for the takeoff and landing, thus saving
> energy.
>
> Anyway, do the numbers. *No Mathcad model needed for this one. *Just
> some measurements and arithmetic.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann * * je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558


Sorry i didnt realise the link was for the list rather than the
specific battery i chose. This battery will only be powering the
camera and onboard wireless stuff. I just wondered if 11.1 volts would
be enough. Your view was similar to mine, that the camera has a
tolerance. I should be able to get 13 minutes out of the camera, and
if we run out of power for the camera in flight, we can just land and
plug a spare in.

Thanks
Adam

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