wireless router capable of being an access point client

Hello everyone,

Are there any wireless router models out there can be both a wireless
access point client on the NAT's WAN side, and also have its own access
point?

I'm looking for this as an alternative to a wireless bridge connected
to a wireless router, since wireless bridges tend to be proprietary
(only work with their own kind).

Regards,

Spacey

On 4 Aug 2006 16:49:00 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com>
wrote:

>Are there any wireless router models out there can be both a wireless
>access point client on the NAT's WAN side, and also have its own access
>point?

No. The wireless access point section is always connected to the LAN
side of the router.

>I'm looking for this as an alternative to a wireless bridge connected
>to a wireless router, since wireless bridges tend to be proprietary
>(only work with their own kind).

There are some wireless devices that have two radios inside a single
package. They're fairly specialized and used mostly for mesh
networks. One radio would be used for the the backhaul to the ISP by
bridging, while the other radio would act as an access point for
clients. However, I would advise against trying to do this in a
single box. The two radios will need to be on seperate channels and
with everything in one box, there just isn't enough isolation to
prevent mutual interference.

There are several ways to do what I guess you wanna do:

1. Conventional wireless router connected to wireless client bridge.
The bridge need only bridge one MAC address so any "game adapter" will
work. The other end of the link is a wireless access point or
wireless router. The problem with this method is that you might end
up with double NAT if you have two routers.

2. Conventional wireless access point conntected to wireless client
bridge. This one needs to be a wireless client bridge that can bridge
more than one MAC address (due to lack of an NAT router in the
system). Something like a WRT54G with DD-WRT firmware in client mode
will work. The other end of the link is a conventional wireless
router with NAT.

3. Conventional wireless access point connected to a wireless
transparent bridge. The other end of the link is an identical
wireless transparent bridge. A pair of WAP54G radios in bridge mode
will work. If there is a router, it should be at the far end of the
link.

4. WDS bridge. A WDS bridge can simultaneously act as an access
point and a transparent bridge in a single box. The other end of the
link is an identical WDS bridge radio. A pair of WRT54G wireless
routers with DD-WRT firmware should work. If there is a router, it
will be at the far end of the link. This is nice because it only uses
one radio. The down side is that the maximum speed of wireless to
wireless traffic through a WDS bridge is reduced by 50%. This is not
a problem if you're sharing a broadband connection, but can be a
problem with higher speed LANs.

There are other combinations and mutations of the aformentioned that
will also work, depending on your budget and creativity.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On 4 Aug 2006 16:49:00 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> >I'm looking for this as an alternative to a wireless bridge connected
> >to a wireless router, since wireless bridges tend to be proprietary
> >(only work with their own kind).
[snip]
> 1. Conventional wireless router connected to wireless client bridge.
> The bridge need only bridge one MAC address so any "game adapter" will
> work. The other end of the link is a wireless access point or
> wireless router. The problem with this method is that you might end
> up with double NAT if you have two routers.

I guess the wireless client bridges that can connect more than one MAC
address are the ones that tend to be proprietary (so you would be
better off connecting to an access point of the same brand)? Or are
those the transparent bridges that need to be the same brand/model on
either side?

Anyway, depending on the answer I am now down to looking for a wireless
client bridge that can handle multiple MAC addresses or a single MAC
address and have the following requirements:

- 802.11b/g, and hopefully also 802.11a
- external antenna connector

Links of Interest:
http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_Bridge
http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php..._Mode_Wireless
http://forum.bsr-clan.de/viewtopic.p...t=bridge#11522

The WRT54G does have an RP-TNC external antenna connector:
http://www.wirelessnetworkproducts.c...n=Custom&ID=29

The WGA54AG does both 802.11g and 802.11a, but I think the antenna does
not come off.

Any other options?

http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73

"Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com> hath wroth:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On 4 Aug 2006 16:49:00 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com>
>> wrote:
>[snip]
>> >I'm looking for this as an alternative to a wireless bridge connected
>> >to a wireless router, since wireless bridges tend to be proprietary
>> >(only work with their own kind).
>[snip]
>> 1. Conventional wireless router connected to wireless client bridge.
>> The bridge need only bridge one MAC address so any "game adapter" will
>> work. The other end of the link is a wireless access point or
>> wireless router. The problem with this method is that you might end
>> up with double NAT if you have two routers.

>I guess the wireless client bridges that can connect more than one MAC
>address are the ones that tend to be proprietary (so you would be
>better off connecting to an access point of the same brand)? Or are
>those the transparent bridges that need to be the same brand/model on
>either side?

Good question. I don't have a complete answer. There are many names
for a "wireless client ethernet bridge" adapter:
http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi#Wireless_Bridge
The problem is that it's difficult to distinguish between a wireless
client that will bridge exactly one MAC address, and one that will do
more than one. The data sheets consistently refuse to mention this
not-so-minor detail. It also has degenerated into a marketing tool,
where it's more profitable to sell an overpriced "game adapter" for
each game console, than a single "wireless client ethernet bridge" and
an ethernet switch, to do the same thing for much lower cost (and much
better game console to game console performance).

I've wanted to prepare a list of ethernet client adapters and the
number of MAC addresses they will bridge. So far, I know that the
following will bridge more than one MAC address:
WET11, WET54G, WAP54G, WRT54G with DD-WRT in client mode,
DWL-900AP+, and WAP11 v2.6. Also, any of the devices
labelled as a "workgroup bridge".
However, that's all I know for sure.

Multiple MAC addresses are not really proprietary. For example, in
Ad-Hoc mode, a client can connect to 8 other devices and MAC
addresses. This is clearly defined in IEEE802.11-1999. However, in
infrastructure mode, which uses an access point, there was no need to
connect to more than one MAC address. So, the commodity clients
didn't bother to include the feature. Bummer.

>Anyway, depending on the answer I am now down to looking for a wireless
>client bridge that can handle multiple MAC addresses or a single MAC
>address and have the following requirements:
>
>- 802.11b/g, and hopefully also 802.11a

If you add 802.11a as a requirement, the number of possible client
radios drops dramatically.

>- external antenna connector
>
>Links of Interest:
>http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_Bridge
>http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php..._Mode_Wireless
>http://forum.bsr-clan.de/viewtopic.p...t=bridge#11522

I use DD-WRT on various routers with good results. Also look at
OpenWRT as a suitable alternative. However, I have only played with
the client mode long enough to be sure it works and no more. I was
able to use DD-WRT to simultaneously bridge two laptops to a DI-614+
wireless router without difficulties.

>The WRT54G does have an RP-TNC external antenna connector:
>http://www.wirelessnetworkproducts.c...n=Custom&ID=29

The actually connector is usually either a RP-TNC (or RP-SMA on other
products). I usually attach a pigtail adapter to a Type N connector
and then to the antenna. The pigtail is to prevent breaking the
connector on the radio because coax cables useable at 2.4GHz tend to
be rather stiff and thick.

>The WGA54AG does both 802.11g and 802.11a, but I think the antenna does
>not come off.
>Any other options?
>http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73

OpenWRT.
| http://wiki.openwrt.org/OpenWrtDocs/Hardware
| http://wiki.openwrt.org/TableOfHardware

If you don't want to use alternative firmware, methinks any of the
following will work (not 100% sure).
WET54G:
| http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satel...VisitorWrapper
WAP54G:
| http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satel...VisitorWrapper
WAP54GP:
| http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satel...VisitorWrapper
DWL-2100AP:
| http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=292

Etc. Check the spec sheets on the various vendors of "access point"
devices as these usually also include a "client mode". The problem is
whether the client mode will do more than one MAC address. The spec
sheet usually doesn't say.

It might be handy to see what's in the web based configurations:
DLink:
http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1457
Linksys:
http://www.linksysdata.com/ui/



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[snip]
> Anyway, depending on the answer I am now down to looking for a wireless
> client bridge that can handle multiple MAC addresses or a single MAC
> address and have the following requirements:
>
> - 802.11b/g, and hopefully also 802.11a
> - external antenna connector

If that wasn't complicated enough, I've added:

- decent internal processor, flash and, um... non-flash memory
- effective isotropic radiated power that is close to the legal 100mW

For example, I saw a list at a certain retailer, which showed
"transmitted power" dbm number for only 1/3 of their 70+ models of
access points. I'm not sure what transmitted power means, but none of
the models went over 20dbm, which is the legal limit (=100mW). Some
had only 12dbm, which is awful (=16mW). You could put a high gain
antenna on the cheapie 12dbm model, and come out the same as a 20dbm
model.

A little knowlege is a dangerous thing.

Spacey

--

thanks Jeff

"Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com> hath wroth:

>[snip]
>> Anyway, depending on the answer I am now down to looking for a wireless
>> client bridge that can handle multiple MAC addresses or a single MAC
>> address and have the following requirements:
>>
>> - 802.11b/g, and hopefully also 802.11a
>> - external antenna connector
>
>If that wasn't complicated enough, I've added:

Careful. You may get what you ask for.

>- decent internal processor, flash and, um... non-flash memory

Sorry. I only deal in indecent processors. However, they do have
proper descendents.

Could you be a bit more specific as to what you consider "decent".

>- effective isotropic radiated power that is close to the legal 100mW

Please watch the terms. Isotropic means equal radiation in all
directions. I don't think that's what you want. Methinks you might
mean EIRP (effective incident radiated power) which is the xmit power
times the antenna gain. In the US, the FCC limit for point to
multipoint is 1 watt output (+30dBm) for the transmitter, and a
maximum of 6dBi (4 times) antenna gain. There are very few radios
that transmit at this high level. It's usually done with an expensive
power amplifier. It's also not a great idea as the high power xmitter
tends to cover a much larger area than it can receive, and therefore
is no better than a wide area jammer.

Are you in the US or somewhere else where the xmitter limits are
lower? RDNS shows you're in Alabama USofA.

>For example, I saw a list at a certain retailer, which showed
>"transmitted power" dbm number for only 1/3 of their 70+ models of
>access points.

You can get xmitter power specifications from the FCC type
certification reports.
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/

>I'm not sure what transmitted power means, but none of
>the models went over 20dbm, which is the legal limit (=100mW). Some
>had only 12dbm, which is awful (=16mW). You could put a high gain
>antenna on the cheapie 12dbm model, and come out the same as a 20dbm
>model.

Yeah, something like that.

Rule de thumb:
6dBi increase equals 2x the range.
12dBi increase equals 4x the range.
4 times the power equals 2x the range.
16 times the power equals 4x the range.

- Increasing the TX power does nothing for the range unless the
other end of the link also increases the power by the same amount.
- Antenna gain increases range in both directions.
- TX power increases range only in one direction.

>A little knowlege is a dangerous thing.

Too much knowledge is also dangerous. That's where I have to explain
things to those with too little.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

> Too much knowledge is also dangerous. That's where I have to explain
> things to those with too little.

Spare me, ok. I've had to have a LOT of patience in teaching people to
use things like Windows Explorer. It's really hard for some people
that (1) Have never been into anything technical, and have always
gotten by on memorization rather than understanding the concepts (2)
Haven't exercised their minds in decades because they've had cushy
surroundings. Sometimes, they just don't have the IQ, but the
intelligent aformentioned really drive me crazy. But then I think...
well, that's why I'm special! And then everythings ok. But I continue
to froth at the mouth for the fun of it.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com> hath wroth:
> >- effective isotropic radiated power that is close to the legal 100mW
>
> Please watch the terms. Isotropic means equal radiation in all
> directions. I don't think that's what you want. Methinks you might
> mean EIRP (effective incident radiated power) which is the xmit power
> times the antenna gain.

Correct them over here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIRP

Actually, I would want the isotropic version, so that I can compare
access points regardless of their antenna. I plan to use my own
antenna.

> Are you in the US or somewhere else where the xmitter limits are
> lower? RDNS shows you're in Alabama USofA.

I'm just here until my daughter lets me go off wherever I want. This
is not my location of choice. I think I may have misread the limit
somewhere.

[snip]
> - Increasing the TX power does nothing for the range unless the
> other end of the link also increases the power by the same amount.
> - Antenna gain increases range in both directions.
> - TX power increases range only in one direction.

So if I put a very high gain antenna on a weakling, I should be matched
up with most any consumer access point out there in terms of the
effective incident radiative power. ;-)

On 6 Aug 2006 23:00:18 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com>
wrote in <1154930417.953145.323970@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>:

>Correct them over here:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIRP

Do it yourself -- that's the whole point of a wiki.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas wrote:
> On 6 Aug 2006 23:00:18 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com>
> wrote in <1154930417.953145.323970@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>:
>
> >Correct them over here:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIRP
>
> Do it yourself -- that's the whole point of a wiki.

I'm not qualified. The last few days is the extent of my venture into
this body of knowledge.

On 6 Aug 2006 19:37:02 -0700, "Spacey Spade" <spaceygum@hotpop.com> wrote:
: [snip]
: > Anyway, depending on the answer I am now down to looking for a wireless
: > client bridge that can handle multiple MAC addresses or a single MAC
: > address and have the following requirements:
: >
: > - 802.11b/g, and hopefully also 802.11a
: > - external antenna connector
:
: If that wasn't complicated enough, I've added:
:
: - decent internal processor, flash and, um... non-flash memory
: - effective isotropic radiated power that is close to the legal 100mW
:
: For example, I saw a list at a certain retailer, which showed
: "transmitted power" dbm number for only 1/3 of their 70+ models of
: access points. I'm not sure what transmitted power means, but none of
: the models went over 20dbm, which is the legal limit (=100mW). Some
: had only 12dbm, which is awful (=16mW). You could put a high gain
: antenna on the cheapie 12dbm model, and come out the same as a 20dbm
: model.
:
: A little knowlege is a dangerous thing.
"Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring."

Spacey Spade wrote:
> I guess the wireless client bridges that can connect more than one MAC
> address are the ones that tend to be proprietary (so you would be
> better off connecting to an access point of the same brand)? Or are
> those the transparent bridges that need to be the same brand/model on
> either side?

More to it...
http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtop...=client+bridge