james wrote:
> *SNIP*
[quoting fixed; crossposted to uk.legal]
>> in February, someone called me saying that
>> they were from Orange and asked me if I wanted a 10% discount as a
>> loyal customer. I said "yes", and thought no more about it.
>
> Oh dear. If anyone phones and offers you £25million and wants your bank
> details, please say "NO". All you said you would like was a 10% discount.
> Anyone could say "yes I would like a 10% discount". It's only when they
> tape you agreeing to a new contract with them the trouble starts - or when
> you sign papers they send. Don't forget a lot of sales will lie to make a
> living. You sound the type that would buy expensive and useless phone
> insurance or extended warranties that run in parallel to manufacturers
> warranties.
Well, yes. I didn't know, at the time, that it was common for mobile
telesales people to lie that they were working for the network rather
than for intermediaries.
>> Unfortunately, as I found when I called Orange trying to get a better
>> tarrif a few months later, this person wasn't from Orange, but was
>> employed by a bunch of privateers lied to Orange that I'd agreed to a
>> new 12-month contract.
>
> Well it's a simple case of asking Orange to provide the copy of the contract
> in your name with your signature. If the company took it out in your name
> without your knowledge then report it to the police as fraud. Also request
> Orange does the same.
> No contract = no proof. Forged contract=prosecution. Orange will not speak
> to someone on your behalf to extend a contract, so maybe you're not telling
> us the whole story.
Orange claim that Zebra Telecom took out a contract with-me-with-them,
based on my assent on the phone to their terms. In actual fact, their
salesperson posed as an Orange customer services representative
offering me a new tarrif. Orange claim that this represents a legally
binding contract between me and Zebra Telecom, and that they can't
revoke Zebra Telecom's contract with me. Yet at the same time, I've
continued to be billed by Orange apparently on their behalf and have
never heard anything from Zebra Telecom.
If Zebra Telecom's salesperson sent Orange a contract claiming that
they had my word-of-mouth assent to a new contract, and Orange are
acting as Zebra Telecom's agent, then I imagine Zebra Telecom's
salesperson has technically defrauded me. Certainly, my last *signed*
contract with Orange is when I bought my last telephone from them in
2004.
>> Orange were no help, claiming
>> I ought to take it up with the privateers - however, unsurprisingly,
>> they don't answer their phone...
>
> Unless Orange can provide proof that YOU signed a contract then you do not
> need to deal with anyone apart from Orange. They will not speak to anyone
> else about your account. If you signed a contract with a third party to
> supply a product from orange then it's your own fault.
I didn't *sign a contract* with a third party - Zebra Telecom claim I
agreed to a new contract over the phone, and never sent anything in
writing. I didn't realise until I spoke to Orange months later that the
agent I spoke to wasn't an Orange customer services agent.
>> I know this contract is not legal, that it's Orange's fault, and that
>> if Orange were to take me to court enforcing my payment of the terms
>> that I would win. However, I'm keen to keep my current phone number,
> What contract? So are you now saying you have signed a contract with a
> third party?
No. A third party claim that I've agreed to an *oral* contract with a
third party. They also claim they sent me an SMS that confirmed the
oral contract, but a) I never received it and b) I'm not convinced that
it would be worth the paper it wasn't written on even if I had received
it.
> Orange can not enforce a contract between you and a third party, but they
> can recover any payment due to them for using their services. There is a
> slight difference. A contract IS legally binding, so by signing it you have
> agreed to be bound by the terms.
Agred.
> If there is NO contract then there is nothing to enforce, so you wouldn'tbe
> going to court. Forget about keeping a number when you claim fraud has
> taken place!
Well, quite. I'm entirely certain that Zebra Telecom have defrauded me;
I don't give a fuck either way what happens to Zebra Telecom; but I
want to keep my Orange phone number because losing it would cause
hassle and possible financial loss.
>> and to not have a dispute on my credit rating for however long it takes
>> to reach court, to the point where I'd be willing to give the b-st-rds
>> £100 or so to give me the PAC and never darken my door again.
>
> You can't be taken to Court if there is no contract. You can be taken to
> court if you do not pay a bill from Orange for using their services. Again
> there is a difference and you are getting confused - again! You get given a
> bad credit rating for not paying your bill. So you want to give £100 to a
> company? For what, according to you there is no contract with orange, but
> there is with a third party! Why back down unless ou are wrong.
At the moment, I pay my Orange bill so there's no dispute. If I were to
stop paying my Orange bill, Orange might dispute whether I have the
right to do so. I have genuinely no understanding of how the deal
between Zebra Telecom and Orange works, so I don't understand who would
persue me if I stopped paying my Orange bill. However, given that
between them Orange and Zebra believe I'm subject to a 12-month
contract with *somebody*, I believe that if I stopped paying the bill
then *somebody* might make my life difficult.
>> So:
>>
>> 1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract? I
>> doubt this, but stranger things have happened, and I relish a fight
>> enough that if I can do this I'd be willing to go to court over the
>> outstanding bills...
>
> Oh so now you're saying you haven't paid the bill ? Well expect to end up
> in court. You have used a service and don't seem to want to pay for it.
> Why bother having a phone?
I've got an Orange phone. I've never not paid an Orange bill. I've just
ordered a T-Mobile phone. I don't have a legal contract binding me to
Orange. Therefore, I'd like to get my PAC and migrate to T-Mobile.
Unfortunately, Orange believe I'm subject to a contract. I'd ideally
like to get a PAC, move to T-Mobile, stop paying Orange money, and let
Orange or Zebra or whoever the hell wrongly believes I owe them money
sue me.
>> 2) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
>> contract?
>
> You said you didn't have a contract with orange, you implied it was with a
> third party.
> Again, you need to sort this out in your own head FIRST! If your contract
> is with Orange you will need to contact them.
I don't have a legal contract with anyone, apart from the contract I
took out 3 years ago where I agreed to stay with Orange for 12 months.
Orange believe I have 5 months remaining on a legal contract with them,
because of Zebra Telecom's actions in February this year. I want to
know how much it will cost me to pay off the contract that doesn't
legally exist but that does exist in Orange's mind, because I'd rather
spend £100 than have a big fight with a big company. Yes, this is
pathetic, but since I may be looking for a mortgage soon I can't afford
to compromise my credit rating for a relatively minor sum of money.
>> Currently my base tarrif is £19.50 and I pay another £10 or
>> so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
>> additional options and just bung them £19.50 * 5 months to February?
>
> If your contract is with Orange you need to contact them.
I've tried speaking with them re absolute cancellation. I'd like to be
armed with the facts on the absolute minimum due to them if I need to
weigh up the pros and cons of suing them and/or Zebra Telecom compared
to the time, money and credit rating points that the fight wil cost me.
>> Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
>> the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
>> Dolphin at £19.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
>> tarrif?
>
> Once again, if your contract is with Orange, speak to them.
See above.
>> Thanks very much for any responses...
>
> It's a pleasure. Just ask yourself -
>
> 1. Which company is my phone contract with.
> 2. Have I bothered to pay the bill.
> 3. Have I looked at the copies of the contracts I have signed.
>
1) my signed phone contract is with Orange, and is terminable on 28
days' notice now I'm past the minimum term. Orange claim I have a new
contract with Zebra, which is the whole problem.
2) yes, and the only reason I would stop would be because I was
disputing the validity of the contract.
3) yes, and the only contract I've signed is with Orange signed in
2004.
I understand there are a lot of idiots out there asking stupid
questions. I'd like to reassure you I'm not one of them, and I'm
genuinely amazed that a major plc I've dealt with for 10 years is
holding me to the word of a telesalesperson working for a fly-by-night
operator who I'd never have chosen to deal with and who I only did deal
with because they lied that they were Orange. I don't like the idea of
paying £100 because I was stupid enough to trust the word of a
salesperson on the phone, and the only reason I'm considering it is
because the other alternatives would cost me more in time/fees/losing
my number.
--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org 
Cancelling an Orange contract ahead of time 
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