Orange Samsung mobile delivered with broken seal

Ivor Jones wrote:
> > > Assuming the box is enclosed within an outer jiffy bag,
> > > they could put it in that.
> >
> > In a warehouse environment processing thousands of order
> > per day? Not practical in the slightest. Far more
> > sensible to have the SIMs in the box.
>
> So it's easier to (a) open the box (b) put the SIM inside (c) reseal
> (badly..!) the box, then still put the whole thing in a jiffy..? Or are
> you telling me they don't protect the box against transit damage in this
> way..?
>
> Whenever I've had anything delivered by courier (admittedly never a phone,
> I prefer to buy them face to face with the seller) then the sealed box has
> always been inside an outer protective jiffy bag. I have never had a box
> delivered without this.
>
> (Makes mental note never to buy a phone by remote...)

This morning I took delivery of my MDA Vario II (which is utterly
excellent, incidentally). The box was inside a sealed plastic
jiffy-bag-packet-type-thing; the SIM card was separate from the box
inside the jiffy bag.

This seems far more practical than messing around opening and resealing
boxes, and ensures that the phone is delivered as-new. The seals are
also tamper-proof, and are accompanies by big warnings saying "do not
accept if this seal is damaged or reads 'void'".

I think the core lesson from this story, as with so many, is that
Orange are a bunch of incompetent chancers who'd struggle to run a
whelk stall.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f73b0dabeafb42d98a369@text.usenet.plus.n et
> janet@jcdesigns.com declared for all the world to hear...
> > I've taken delivery today of a new Orange contract
> > phone, a Samsung D900 in a Samsung box. The seal has
> > been broken and then taped over with a clear tape, not
> > marked as tamper proof or bearing any logo.
> >
> > I've contacted Orange to say I don't want to accept
> > this phone as the seal is broken and on both occassions
> > (I've rung twice) they've said the box has been opened
> > at Orange to insert the sim card. (In fact the first
> > call they said they had to open all the boxes to make
> > sure there were sim cards in them and then reseal
> > them.)
> >
> > As there is nothing to say anywhere that the seal has
> > been broken by Orange, and nothing on the resealing
> > tape to indicate it's been resealed by Orange I'm still
> > very wary. Am I being over cautious?

No.

> Maybe not, but what you have been told is true.

According to an Orange employee. You are probably correct, but you must
also see that you can be regarded as somewhat biased.

> Samsung
> deliver the phones to Orange's warehouse in Banbury.
> There they are opened, a SIM card and various other bits
> are inserted and the box is then re-sealed.

Obviously not very well. If they *must* open the boxes (and I really don't
see why the additional "bits" can't be taped to the box and then the whole
placed in a jiffy to protect against transit damage if nothing else), why
not reseal with a seal that says "resealed by Orange for xxx reasons" or
whatever..? A blank bit of sellotape is very suspect in my view.

> > This is my first experience or Orange, is their
> > customer service always so poor?
>
> What's poor about it?

Just about everything these days, unfortunately.

> You asked a question and were given
> the answer.

As you have just been.

Ivor

"John B" <spam@johnband.org> wrote in message
news:1158325343.464186.281640@p79g2000cwp.googlegr oups.com

[snip]

> This morning I took delivery of my MDA Vario II (which is
> utterly excellent, incidentally). The box was inside a
> sealed plastic jiffy-bag-packet-type-thing; the SIM card
> was separate from the box inside the jiffy bag.

So it *can* be done..!

> This seems far more practical than messing around opening
> and resealing boxes, and ensures that the phone is
> delivered as-new. The seals are also tamper-proof, and
> are accompanies by big warnings saying "do not accept if
> this seal is damaged or reads 'void'".

My point precisely. Thanks, John.

> I think the core lesson from this story, as with so many,
> is that Orange are a bunch of incompetent chancers who'd
> struggle to run a whelk stall.

That we already knew. Come back Hans Snook, all is forgiven........

Ivor

ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> > In a warehouse environment processing thousands of order
> > per day? Not practical in the slightest. Far more
> > sensible to have the SIMs in the box.

> So it's easier to (a) open the box (b) put the SIM inside (c) reseal
> (badly..!) the box, then still put the whole thing in a jiffy..? Or are
> you telling me they don't protect the box against transit damage in this
> way..?

I'll try to explain how it works.

Phones come in from the manufacturer pallets at a time. After checking
and booking in they are then individually opened, the SIM and all the
other stuff is placed in, and the SIM is then paired with the IMEI and
uploaded into various systems. The SIM and the IMEI are then treated as
one stock unit. The phones are then placed into their warehouse
location.

When an order comes in for a phone, it it simply a case of picking the
phone from it's location. We don't have the hassle of finding a SIM
separately because that bit has already been taken care of.
--
Regards
Jon

ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> So you don't protect the box against transit damage..? Another good reason
> never to buy from Orange.

The box's job is to protect the contents from damage. There is no need
to protect the box.

I had 2 K800i's delivered today in nothing more than a parceline bag.
They were not damaged.
--
Regards
Jon

"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f74f9f3c407af6d98a381@text.usenet.plus.n et
> ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to
> hear...
> > So you don't protect the box against transit damage..?
> > Another good reason never to buy from Orange.
>
> The box's job is to protect the contents from damage.
> There is no need to protect the box.

Of course there is. A damaged box means the carrier/handler has no concern
for the contents. Have you seen the way baggage handlers throw cases
around at airports..? The contents *could* be damaged.

> I had 2 K800i's delivered today in nothing more than a
> parceline bag. They were not damaged.

Good. But they could have been.

BTW can you explain just *why* Orange don't reseal the boxes with tape
saying that they have been opened/resealed by Orange and why..? If that
had been done in the first place, this thread wouldn't have happened.

Ivor

ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> Of course there is. A damaged box means the carrier/handler has no concern
> for the contents.

Indeed, the carrier may not have regard for the contents, which is why
designers of packaging materials make the boxes very strong with custom-
shaped eggshell inners to hold and protect everything. It would take
quite a severe impact to damage a mobile phone in transit. In nearly 5
years with Orange I've yet to have any phones delivered to me in a state
where I would consider them unfit for sale.

> > I had 2 K800i's delivered today in nothing more than a
> > parceline bag. They were not damaged.

> Good. But they could have been.

But they weren't though!

> BTW can you explain just *why* Orange don't reseal the boxes with tape
> saying that they have been opened/resealed by Orange and why..?

I guess having never been challenged on it they don't see a need to have
such a tape manufactured.
--
Regards
Jon

"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f77380ca4ff419f98a38f@text.usenet.plus.n et
> ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to
> hear...
> > Of course there is. A damaged box means the
> > carrier/handler has no concern for the contents.
>
> Indeed, the carrier may not have regard for the contents,
> which is why designers of packaging materials make the
> boxes very strong with custom- shaped eggshell inners to
> hold and protect everything. It would take quite a severe
> impact to damage a mobile phone in transit. In nearly 5
> years with Orange I've yet to have any phones delivered
> to me in a state where I would consider them unfit for
> sale.

It's not you who should be considering whether goods are fit/unfit for
sale, it's the customer. You wouldn't sell me anything in a damaged and/or
unsealed box.

> > > I had 2 K800i's delivered today in nothing more than a
> > > parceline bag. They were not damaged.
>
> > Good. But they could have been.
>
> But they weren't though!

Luck.

> > BTW can you explain just *why* Orange don't reseal the
> > boxes with tape saying that they have been
> > opened/resealed by Orange and why..?
>
> I guess having never been challenged on it they don't see
> a need to have such a tape manufactured.

I doubt they have never been challenged, are you sure on that..? I for one
am challenging them right now..!

Ivor

ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> > > Good. But they could have been.

> > But they weren't though!

> Luck.

For nearly 5 years my luck has held. I know which way I'd bet if I had
to.

> I doubt they have never been challenged, are you sure on that..?

No, I have no idea.

> I for one
> am challenging them right now..!

If you're that bothered why don't you ring them and ask them?
--
Regards
Jon

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:32:33 +0100, "Simon Finnigan"
<SimonFinnigan@hotmail.com> wrote:

>And most delivery companies I`ve had experience with won`t let you open the
>parcel until you`ve signed for it - catch 22.

That's not my experience. The driver may be keen to be on his way, but
he is supposed to wait. One of our clients asks customers to check
goods before signing for them, and specifically state that the
delivery contract specifies giving the customer fifteen minutes to
check whilst the driver waits. But they still sign without checking,
and then get shirty when replacement of broken bits is chargeable.

However, you can't check that an electronic device is OK just by
looking at it. Best to ALWAYS sign it "unexamined" or "unchecked"

--

Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
Browse now while stocks last!

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Jon wrote:

> When an order comes in for a phone, it it simply a case of picking the
> phone from it's location. We don't have the hassle of finding a SIM
> separately because that bit has already been taken care of.

Of course the underlying reason for this is that Orange sell the phone
and sim as a single unit. If the customer puts that sim into another
phone Orange will moan about "backdoor upgrades" and waive support.
Likewise if the phone is sold separately Orange claim that this is an
unauthorised sale. And the biggest problem is that you can ask ten
Orange CS reps for clarification of this and you will get ten different
answers.

--
Chris

"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f77b8a8b562974f98a392@text.usenet.plus.n et
> ivor@despammed.invalid declared for all the world to
> hear...
> > > > Good. But they could have been.
>
> > > But they weren't though!
>
> > Luck.
>
> For nearly 5 years my luck has held. I know which way I'd
> bet if I had to.

Good for you. Doesn't mean it'll never happen though.

> > I doubt they have never been challenged, are you sure
> > on that..?
>
> No, I have no idea.

But you should, if you're basing your argument on it..!

> > I for one
> > am challenging them right now..!
>
> If you're that bothered why don't you ring them and ask
> them?

Because to be honest I don't really care any more, I lost any
confidence/faith I ever had in Orange a long time ago. I only keep a PAYG
SIM because it still has the original Out Here pack on it and I find the
free SMS useful. If the day ever comes when "lifetime" no longer means
what it says then that too will go.

Ivor

<hairydog@despammed.com> wrote in message
newsoarg2l76vmc9dr2vikbcd750d326dc6fa@4ax.com
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:32:33 +0100, "Simon Finnigan"
> <SimonFinnigan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And most delivery companies I`ve had experience with
> > won`t let you open the parcel until you`ve signed for
> > it - catch 22.
>
> That's not my experience. The driver may be keen to be on
> his way, but he is supposed to wait. One of our clients
> asks customers to check goods before signing for them,
> and specifically state that the delivery contract
> specifies giving the customer fifteen minutes to check
> whilst the driver waits. But they still sign without
> checking, and then get shirty when replacement of broken
> bits is chargeable.
>
> However, you can't check that an electronic device is OK
> just by looking at it. Best to ALWAYS sign it
> "unexamined" or "unchecked"

However, if you do sign "unchecked" and it turns out to be broken, what
comeback do you have..? You should have checked it and didn't.

Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:
> If they *must* open the boxes (and I really don't
> see why the additional "bits" can't be taped to the box and then the whole
> placed in a jiffy to protect against transit damage if nothing else), why
> not reseal with a seal that says "resealed by Orange for xxx reasons" or
> whatever..? A blank bit of sellotape is very suspect in my view.

I'd agree that some more security tape would be a good idea, but I do
think some people are being rather paranoid on here.

When I sold phones from 1994, EVERY phone was opened because I would
activate the phone for the customer! It also enabled me to check that
the phone worked before sending it out (saving a possible DOA that is a
pain for both me and the customer alike) but now it seems that doing
something like this would have the customer demand a replacement
straight away!!

I doubt very much Orange open the boxes to insert their own material
(manual, T&Cs and SIM card) and then play with the phones. Imagine how
many they must handle every day! Likewise, imagine having the SIM
separate, with the chance to see it get lost or mixed up. A recipe for
disaster! Much, much safer for the customer to have it in the box, thus
preventing the chance of someone opening the bag, taking out the phone
box and throwing away the packing with a SIM card in it.

Since Orange began supplying 'normal' phones to meet demand (the
alternative being no phone at all when stock of Orange branded kit runs
out), there really can't be any other solution. You can't ship
everything to Samsung and ask them to do it for you (imagine the
logistical nightmare - sending SIM cards to South Korea, with no way of
knowing that the right phone got the right SIM).

If the phone works (and is still sealed in its plastic bag, with the
screen cover) then I wouldn't get all worked up. Orange isn't the only
network to put a SIM card in the box either. If the IMEI and IMSI need
to be tied together, you really don't want to split them.

Jonathan

"Jonathan Morris" <j.morris@jmcomms.com> wrote in message
news:1158586912.434314.286500@b28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com
> Ivor Jones wrote:
> > If they *must* open the boxes (and I really don't
> > see why the additional "bits" can't be taped to the box
> > and then the whole placed in a jiffy to protect against
> > transit damage if nothing else), why not reseal with a
> > seal that says "resealed by Orange for xxx reasons" or
> > whatever..? A blank bit of sellotape is very suspect in
> > my view.
>
> I'd agree that some more security tape would be a good
> idea, but I do think some people are being rather
> paranoid on here.

As the saying goes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they
*aren't* out to get you..!

Seriously, the main reason I insist on sealed packaging on delivered items
is simply because if the package *isn't* sealed, what is to stop the
sender claiming that any broken item or defect is down to you and that it
didn't happen en route..?

> When I sold phones from 1994, EVERY phone was opened
> because I would activate the phone for the customer! It
> also enabled me to check that the phone worked before
> sending it out (saving a possible DOA that is a pain for
> both me and the customer alike) but now it seems that
> doing something like this would have the customer demand
> a replacement straight away!!

If you're buying from a shop, then yes, it's ok to open the box and check
the phone is working before the customer leaves. But *only* if the
customer agrees - if I am buying a phone as a gift for someone, I don't
really want to give them an opened box.

But we are really talking here about phones delivered by courier, post or
whatever. These should *always* be sealed.

> I doubt very much Orange open the boxes to insert their
> own material (manual, T&Cs and SIM card) and then play
> with the phones.

It doesn't matter *why* they open the box. The box *has been opened*
therefore is no longer factory sealed and the contents *could* have been
tampered with. They should either not open them or they should reseal with
tape saying what they have done and why.

> Imagine how many they must handle every
> day! Likewise, imagine having the SIM separate, with the
> chance to see it get lost or mixed up. A recipe for
> disaster! Much, much safer for the customer to have it in
> the box, thus preventing the chance of someone opening
> the bag, taking out the phone box and throwing away the
> packing with a SIM card in it.

So seal the bag with tape showing if it's been opened or not.

> Since Orange began supplying 'normal' phones to meet
> demand (the alternative being no phone at all when stock
> of Orange branded kit runs out), there really can't be
> any other solution. You can't ship everything to Samsung
> and ask them to do it for you (imagine the logistical
> nightmare - sending SIM cards to South Korea, with no way
> of knowing that the right phone got the right SIM).

Tape it to the outside of the box and put the box in a jiffy bag. Simple.

> If the phone works (and is still sealed in its plastic
> bag, with the screen cover) then I wouldn't get all
> worked up. Orange isn't the only network to put a SIM
> card in the box either. If the IMEI and IMSI need to be
> tied together, you really don't want to split them.

They don't need to be tied together. Orange would *like* them to be, but
it isn't necessary for the equipment to operate.

Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:
> Seriously, the main reason I insist on sealed packaging on delivered items
> is simply because if the package *isn't* sealed, what is to stop the
> sender claiming that any broken item or defect is down to you and that it
> didn't happen en route..?

Tell them it was sealed. If they say it wasn't, because they opened it
to put in the SIM, you say that this means it could have been damaged
by them. Then see what they say!

> If you're buying from a shop, then yes, it's ok to open the box and check
> the phone is working before the customer leaves. But *only* if the
> customer agrees - if I am buying a phone as a gift for someone, I don't
> really want to give them an opened box.

We were mail order, and had to do connections beforehand as we would
get charged the full subsidy if the customer didn't 'connect at home'.
Actually, the first phones did go out unopened, until the new rules
came in. The upside was being able to find a faulty handset (extremely
rare except for Dancall dc1's and some Motorola's, which few people
would buy if they took our advice!).

> It doesn't matter *why* they open the box. The box *has been opened*
> therefore is no longer factory sealed and the contents *could* have been
> tampered with. They should either not open them or they should reseal with
> tape saying what they have done and why.

Yes. I had laser-labels rather than tape with an explanation of why it
was opened - and our phone number. Probably still have the Word
document on a backup CD somewhere!

> Tape it to the outside of the box and put the box in a jiffy bag. Simple.

No. The SIM could easily get lost. They also put in other paperwork,
including any specific Orange manual. This would definitely get messed
up in any warehouse. The jiffy bag is only the very last bit of the
ordering/picking/sending process.

> They don't need to be tied together. Orange would *like* them to be, but
> it isn't necessary for the equipment to operate.

Of course. But, that's the way they do things, like it or not. Let's
not argue about that here, even though we all know that any Orange SIM
(well, most) will work!

Jonathan