Re: Thinkpad x60s 1704 GSM module - no fax??

occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk wrote:

> I bought one of these fine laptops recently.
>
> It contains a built-in GSM/GPRS/3G/HSDPA module, based on a Sierra
> wireless card, probably a mini-PCI one.
>
> I want to send faxes through this module. Currently it works for data
> but no fax.
>
> Two potential ways: Winfax 10.02, and the fax feature which comes with
> XP. Both of these work fine with a Sierra 750 PCMCIA GSM/GPRS card
> which I plug into the laptop, and Winfax reports the built-in Thinkpad
> module as Class 1 capable.
>
> But neither program will work. Both report 'no dial tone'.
>
> Lenovo customer service is the usual bunch of morons and I've done my
> time on the phone with them. Their UK end is probably deliberately set
> up with morons in all customer facing positions. I have written to
> them but no reply so far.
>
> I emailed and faxed Sierra but no reply - these big US firms rarely
> reply to anything.
>
> Winfax is now a dead product, but the XP fax function certainly isn't,
> and should work. Especially as the laptop is advertised as fax
> capable!
>
> Can anybody suggest anything?
>
> I carry the Sierra 750 card, containing yet another Voda prepaid SIM
> card, for faxing but it would be nice to not have to. I also know
> about email2fax gateways but there are places in Europe where you get
> no data (i.e. no internet) but can send GSM faxes; also there is
> nothing like seeing the fax actually connect and transmit if it is
> something important.
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
> E-mail replies to peter1124@peter2000XY.co.uk but remove the X and the Y.

Well, the error message is fairly accurate: No dial tone! This is
because there is no such thing as a dial tone in 3G packet switched
networks, which in (one) consequence means that fax does not work at all
in 3G networks! (I know that a 64kbit/s circuit switched data service
exists in 3G but that one does not support fax either. So there really
is no fax in/over 3G if not by the means of using the deviation via an
e-mail2fax server.)

If you want to send a fax with your laptop - and supposed you have
subscribed to that service, i.e. your SIM card in principle allows you
to send faxes - you first need to make sure that you are attached to a
2G / GSM network, not to a UMTS one. Don't know whether the inbuilt PC
devices support 2G but would assume so. But it is still unclear whether
the device support circuit switched data connections and fax - and this
is something I actually doubt. I guess those devices support packet
switched data connections only and therefore by definition no fax. IIRC,
"Class 1" only says something about transimitting power of the inbuilt
data device (UMTS UE Power Class 1-4 exist). So I am afraid you will be
stucked to your old Sierra card for the fax service.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Horst

occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk wrote:
>>Well, the error message is fairly accurate: No dial tone! This is
>>because there is no such thing as a dial tone in 3G packet switched
>>networks, which in (one) consequence means that fax does not work at all
>>in 3G networks! (I know that a 64kbit/s circuit switched data service
>>exists in 3G but that one does not support fax either. So there really
>>is no fax in/over 3G if not by the means of using the deviation via an
>>e-mail2fax server.)
>>
>>If you want to send a fax with your laptop - and supposed you have
>>subscribed to that service, i.e. your SIM card in principle allows you
>>to send faxes - you first need to make sure that you are attached to a
>>2G / GSM network, not to a UMTS one. Don't know whether the inbuilt PC
>>devices support 2G but would assume so. But it is still unclear whether
>>the device support circuit switched data connections and fax - and this
>>is something I actually doubt. I guess those devices support packet
>>switched data connections only and therefore by definition no fax. IIRC,
>>"Class 1" only says something about transimitting power of the inbuilt
>>data device (UMTS UE Power Class 1-4 exist). So I am afraid you will be
>>stucked to your old Sierra card for the fax service.
>>
>>Hope this helps!
>
>
> AFAIK fax goes over plain GSM - nothing to do with GPRS/3G/HSDPA
> (UMTS) etc. Fax is in the basic GSM spec - I once worked on a product
> which used the Siemens TC35 GSM modem to send faxes.
>
> The built-in adapter (I can find the Sierra # on their website if this
> helps) can be configured to connect to the internet via GPRS or 3G,
> preferring one over another etc but as I say that is not relevant
> IMHO.
>
> The built-in adapter does send and receive SMS messages anytime (with
> a whole variety of SIM cards) so it clearly works for GSM.
>
> And the SIM cards are all fax enabled. I even have fax receive enabled
> - Voda PAYG do this by allocating a different fax #, bizzarely.
>
> I suppose that somehow the built-in adapter is either not fax enabled
> (whatever that means) or a piece of software is needed. However,
> Winfax reckons it does Class 1; this comes from an enquiry like ATI?
>
> Winfax can work either via a specified COM port or via TAPI, and the
> adapter doesn't appear to have a TAPI driver so I have tried it with a
> direct com port spec.
>
> The XP fax function shows both devices (internal and PCMCIA) and for
> each one you get a checkbox for enable send and enable receive. This
> suggests that XP reckons both should work for both.
>
> IMHO the 'no dial tone' message is a redherring - there is actually a
> dial tone when sending fax via GSM.
>
> Maybe the number isn't even dialling properly. I wonder if it needs
> the phone # to be formatted in some strange way... However texts work
> OK.
>
> I had a similar problem with the popular "Vodafone Mobile Connect"
> GPRS/3G card a while ago, made by Option. However, according to
> Option, that card really doesn't support fax.
>

First of all fax goes over a circuit switched connection only. And this
means it does not work on packet switched data services like GPRS (both
2G and 3G). And from what I understand of your reponse this is the root
cause for your trouble: your laptop's inbuilt device only supports
packet switched connections (like formerly your Option card did). And
that's now bad news for you because there is no chance whatsoever to
send fax via this. Supporting GSM is a necessary prerequisite for using
the fax service because that one does not exist in 3G at all.
Unfortunately there's another necessary condition: CS data needs to be
supported, too, which it obviously isn't. Any kind of driver
installations couldn't fix that. And I would not exactly call the dial
tone a red herring: It indeed indicates a free line as it did in good
old fixed line telephony when hooking off. And the fax software needs
that before it starts dialling the receiver's number. Without this
trigger it would not dial out.

SMS by the way goes either via the signalling channel of a cell (2G or
3G) or via GPRS if supported by the network, so this is not an argument
why fax should work as well. No, - and this is hard for me to
say...;-).. - this time it is certainly not Microsoft's fault that your
programs can't fax.

Cheers,
Horst

occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk wrote:

> Horst Peiffer <epmhop@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
>>First of all fax goes over a circuit switched connection only. And this
>>means it does not work on packet switched data services like GPRS (both
>>2G and 3G). And from what I understand of your reponse this is the root
>>cause for your trouble: your laptop's inbuilt device only supports
>>packet switched connections (like formerly your Option card did). And
>>that's now bad news for you because there is no chance whatsoever to
>>send fax via this. Supporting GSM is a necessary prerequisite for using
>>the fax service because that one does not exist in 3G at all.
>>Unfortunately there's another necessary condition: CS data needs to be
>>supported, too, which it obviously isn't. Any kind of driver
>>installations couldn't fix that. And I would not exactly call the dial
>>tone a red herring: It indeed indicates a free line as it did in good
>>old fixed line telephony when hooking off. And the fax software needs
>>that before it starts dialling the receiver's number. Without this
>>trigger it would not dial out.
>>
>>SMS by the way goes either via the signalling channel of a cell (2G or
>>3G) or via GPRS if supported by the network, so this is not an argument
>>why fax should work as well. No, - and this is hard for me to
>>say...;-).. - this time it is certainly not Microsoft's fault that your
>>programs can't fax.
>
>
> Thank you Horst for the clarification.
>
> Why does Winfax report the Sierra module as Class 1 compatible? The
> relevant AT? command should not return this if the card doesn't do fax
> at all.
>
> Also the laptop is advertised as fax capable.
>
> Also, I can use the module for SMS with a SIM card on which data (GPRS
> or 3G) is disabled. For example I have two Vodacom (South Africa) SIM
> cards on which GPRS used to work but has been disabled after a few
> months out of their country of issue. I can see this not only from
> them not working for data but also if I plug them into the PCMCIA
> adapter I can see
>
> - Vodafone (the local roaming network for Vodacom)
> - Roaming
> - GPRS icon is blank (the card doesn't do 3G)
>
> But maybe the data authority of the SIM card is nothing to do with
> whether the network is circuit switched or packet switched.
>
> OTOH the data sheet on the Sierra module (see my other post with the
> URLs) does not mention fax.
>
Hi again,

the 'class x' thing is something which is used in several contexts: In
UMTS 'class' is dedicated to the transmission power of the user
equipment (UE). In GPRS 'class' describes the supported capabilities
(e.g. number of bundled channels in up- and down-link for GSM, supported
coding schemes etc.) and in fax 'class 1' according to Wikipedia
means:"Class 1 fax devices do fax data transfer where the T.4/T.6 data
compression and T.30 session management are performed by software on a
controlling computer. This is described in ITU-T recommendation T.31."
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fax). So the fax capable Sierra
PCMCIA card understands your class interrogating AT command and responds
with a 1-3 figure ("1" in your case as I understood it). Your UMTS
device is UMTS class 1, which doesn't have anything to do with fax but
with the maximum transmission power (check google for details). A bit
misleading though....

Your laptop certainly is fax capabale via the built in 56k modem, which
supports the necessary circuit switched mode (but no packet switched).

As said earlier, SMS is mostly transferred via the mobile network common
signalling channel. This one is open to usage as soon as the SIM card is
attached, i.e. you see a network indicated in the display / the software
used. As soon as the card is registered to the VLR with the so-called
T11 and T21 service (-> telephony and SMS) enabled, SMS works as well.
You an find an overview over the teleservices here:
http://www.tml.tkk.fi/Studies/Tik-11...ervices_1.html

All services on a network are enabled or disabled via these T-codes
being added to / taken away from your subscription data. Note that fax
has a T-code of its own and so have all the data services. And the ones
for CS are different from the ones for PS data - and both are different
from the one for fax services. So indeed, those have got nothing to do
with each other.

Lots of words, no real solution to your initial problem. However, I
believe there is no, due to the principle obstacles described. Brave,
new telecom world.....;-)

Cheers,
Horst

occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk declared for all the world to
hear...
> And the SIM cards are all fax enabled. I even have fax receive enabled
> - Voda PAYG do this by allocating a different fax #, bizzarely.

Nothing bizarre about it. You always have a separate incoming fax and
data number to your voice number.
--
Regards
Jon

occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk declared for all the world to
hear...
> >Nothing bizarre about it. You always have a separate incoming fax and
> >data number to your voice number.

> Not IME. Only on Voda does one have a separate receive fax #.

Sorry old fruit but that simply isn't true.

> And on
> all networks I have tried outgoing faxes on, the transmit # (as
> evident from the CLI on the receiving fax machine) is the same as the
> SIM card's voice #.

Indeed. But incoming fax and data always have a different number, it's
how GSM networks work.
--
Regards
Jon